Lejonklou/Linn System

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Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by Charlie1 »

I had a meeting in Guildford today so popped into see Chris at Hidden Systems on the way back home.

Was lucky enough to (finally) hear Sagatun Monos, but also the new passive Akudoriks. The rest of the system was KRDS/1 and Tundra Stereo. It was an excellent system - effortlessly musical and engaging, even though the Akudoriks were only a few days old. The quantity of bass from those little speakers was very surprising. At moderate and loud levels it was comparable in depth and weight to my 140s (with 3db bass cut) and miles better bass quality.

I guess much of the effortlessness stemmed from the Sagatun Monos and KRDS/1 which also look very good together. It was a great system and I'd recommend anyone passing by check it out. Shame I was too early to hear the new Monos which should arrive later this week.

Many thanks to Chris for his hospitality and copious cups of tea! :)
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by rowlandhills »

Sounds like an interesting visit. By the way, you've said "Sagatun Monos" and "Sagatun" but not mentioned a power amp. Do you mean Sagatuns Monos and Tundra Stereo?
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by Charlie1 »

Sorry, yes, Tundra Stereo. I've amended it.
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by Ozzzy189 »

Sounds like a nice system. Do you think that a rocker like me will like the doriks? I'm very interested in hearing the Lejonklou sandwich you mentioned!
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by Charlie1 »

Ozzzy189 wrote:Sounds like a nice system. Do you think that a rocker like me will like the doriks? I'm very interested in hearing the Lejonklou sandwich you mentioned!
We played a small amount of rock and it was equally good. Chris suspects they are easier to drive than 212s. They are in the room at the top of the stairs, so more or less medium Bedroom size. Can't comment on their abilities in a large listening room. And I cant be 100% sure they will satisfy your rock 'n roll needs, but I didn't notice anything that worried me in this regard.
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by Ozzzy189 »

Thanks for sharing, I look forward to hearing them. I know Chris really likes them so I expect they're pretty special.
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by Spannko »

Although I'm not absolutely sure, I've a sneaking suspicion that the Akudoriks could be my favourite speaker in Linn's current lineup. I haven't heard the passives yet, but I've heard Exakt Akudoriks outperform Aktive Akubariks - even in the bass region, which really surprised me. The Exact Akudoriks made the Aktive Akubariks bass sound uncontrolled and overblown - probably due to the reduction in the room modes. I didn't notice that much loss in extension either - there was a slight loss, but this was made up by having a (subjectively) more even bass response than the Akubariks. The Akubariks have a big, impressive, musical sound. The Akudoriks also have an out of the box, musical sound, but not as "impressive" as the Akubariks. This is a point in favour of the Akudoriks because from what I have heard so far, they seem to be more coherent.

I'm looking forward to hearing them passive. I'm 90% sure I'll be going down the Exakt route - but who knows? It should be really interesting!
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by Music Lover »

Spannko wrote: The Exact Akudoriks made the Aktive Akubariks bass sound uncontrolled and overblown - probably due to the reduction in the room modes.
Heard Akubariks in many locations, and "uncontrolled and overblown bass" is what I heard everywhere.
Definitely prefer the tighter and more controlled bass in 242, even if I consider them bass shy and dynamically restricted.
I simply prefer quality over quantity!
Sadly the recent isobarik speakers haven't the Brick/Keltik magics. I had such expectations...
Down-firing woofers = no stomach push. Why Linn? Design over performance?

Akudoriks on the other hand can in passive version possible become one of the Linn better speakers in many years!
Clearly the best (least bad?) Exakt speaker I heard.
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by Ozzzy189 »

That's why I love the original 'briks, it's like being punched in the chest when drums and bass kick hard.
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by u252agz »

If I were building a passive system from scratch - I would begin with KRDS/1, Sagatun and Tundra stereos and 109s/Ninkas; with the usual silvers and K200.

I could happily stop there but if I wanted to upgrade; then change the Sagatun to Mono; followed by the Tundra to mono.

The last would be speakers - anything from 212/akudorik to 242/Akubariks and possibly a whole host of speakers I have never heard.
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by HIDDENSYSTEMS »

+ 1
But TM2 have shocked me (awesome) and wonder what if a lesser source
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by MisterH »

Looking forward to hearing them in the morning, maybe a report to follow tomorrow night
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by HIDDENSYSTEMS »

NeilH, what were your thoughts to the day with Spannko last Friday here?

Tundra Mono 2's are incredible Fredrik, well done. I'm off to demo in Southampton tomorrow PM and up to Whizz/Flatcoat Luton Thursday.

I'm still loving the Passive Akudoriks - great speaker- not room fussy IMHO - full sound, zero concerns and does make 212 seem light weight and thinner - we tried with latest passive stands with this filler but it killed them so removed and sound restored http://www.atacama-audio.co.uk/p/atabit ... ries?pp=24 It will be a good find to know how many to insert, time ;-)

With latest KDS/2 CJ leak (reclock architecture news its does mean that whilst KDS/ADS/MDS will have the option of Exakt link there is life in the best source digital source for whatever traditional pre - power amp combo you have whilst Linn plant the Exakt seed, clever marketing.

The thought of KDS/2, Sagatun's Mono, Tundra Monos and Passive Akudoriks/Akubariks is a mighty combo - KDS/2 vs/ LP12 SE

Interesting times
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by MisterH »

Apologies for not posting a report, but had we left earlier then I may have had time

We were enjoying ourselves so much it was almost 8.30 before we left, thanks to Chris for a great day, I thinks Spannko's words in his text to me were "  I have to say, It was a fabulous day, and quite unlike ANY dealer visit I’ve ever experienced!  "

As for reporting on what we heard that will have to wait a couple of days, watch this space, but as a preview " AMAZING "
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by MisterH »

Sorry for the delay folks but;

Ok spent a day (and I mean whole day! ) with Spannko down with Chris at Hiddensystems last Friday, primarily to hear the passive Akudoriks and Tundra Mono2.

Started off by listening to Klimax 350 Exakt, I was disappointed, I had heard it briefly at Chris's a couple of months ago, and I thought it was sounding a bit better this time, but although it was good smooth HiFi, it wasn't really playing engaging music.

Then it was onto Akudoriks, on 212 stands, with KRDS/1, Sagatun Monos, Tundra Monos2. My first impression having come from the 350's was WOW, this is music, far more life and vibrancy. I have 212's but have to say my first impression was how much bass the Doriks have by comparison, but well controlled and musical bass. I would be perfectly happy to live with this system, in fact I was in fear of putting my own system on at home and being disappointed,fortunately that wasn't the case.

The next comparison was to put them on their own stands with some filling as described by Chris, (which incidentally I use in my 212's and find to be the best option). This doesn't seem to be the case with the Akudoriks the filling killed the sound so it was back to unfilled stands.

During the rest of the day, we heard the speakers with various boxes both Linn and Lejonklou, with ADS/1 and KRDS/1 as source, which although I didn't expect a great difference between the 2 sources, for me the KRDS was much better.

As regards amplifiers, I can only say that Frederiks boxes were to me were far better than the Linn amps ( there again I would say that seeing as I have them ) but the Tundra Mono2' are just sublime in their ability to play music and keep the listener interested ( saving for them now !).

In summary I think a Lejonklou sandwich between Linn front end and speakers is probably the most engaging system I have heard.

Another vote in praise of Frederik and his attention to detail to produce such great amplifiers, looking forward to your next visit to UK.

As a foot note, I also had to move camps from the 'Ethernet cables can't make a difference' to 'the Ethernet cables DO make a difference' as I heard it with my own ears, I did prefer the cheaper option to the more expensive though !
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by Music Lover »

neilh wrote: As a foot note, I also had to move camps from the 'Ethernet cables can't make a difference' to 'the Ethernet cables DO make a difference' as I heard it with my own ears
hehe
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by moog_man »

Thanks for a meaty synopsis/ review, Neil
Now the Tundra Mono2 is in the UK, an audition is definitely in order. It certainly seems that, for those such as myself that can't yet stretch budget to a floorstander, the Akudorik/ Tundra Mono2 combination is going to be a strong seller.

Could you elaborate on a couple more things, please...
1.
neilh wrote:As regards amplifiers, [...] the Linn amps
- Are you referring to the K350 Exakt, or what were the other Linn pre- and powers swapped in?
2. Did you perceive much difference between the AkuDorik on 212 stands and eventually unfilled Dorik stands? [edit: ignore - have since read spannko's impressions on the Linn forum http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread. ... #pid350499 ]

Thanks again for your insights
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by ThomasOK »

Music Lover wrote:
neilh wrote: As a foot note, I also had to move camps from the 'Ethernet cables can't make a difference' to 'the Ethernet cables DO make a difference' as I heard it with my own ears
hehe
Agreed. And the cheaper ones often are better.

Nice report! Also interested in what Linn electronics you compared to.
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by MisterH »

Linn electronics other than source were AK, KK and A2200 in various combinations, well I think that was the case.
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by moog_man »

Seems like the Akudoriks are picking up accolades for their improved bass response. That's encouraging.
Linn's speaker designer, Phil Budd elaborates on the reasons for this:
http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread. ... #pid350726
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by lejonklou »

I have heard many positive comments about the passive Akudoriks. Hope to hear them on my next visit to Hidden Systems, if not before that.

Here's one thing I don't get: Mr Budd recommends diagonal connection on the rear of the speaker. Now, this could make sense in theory, given that the number of links that the signal must pass before reaching each filter and drive unit becomes equal for all. But if one listens to the alternatives, everyone who's ever done this finds that it sounds best connecting to + and - on the treble input. That's for single wire. For bi-wire (which I find worse, but that's another debate) the most musical option is +/- on treble and +/- on the uppermost bass (if there's several).

Don't they check these things by actually listening to them?
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by lunch »

lejonklou wrote:I have heard many positive comments about the passive Akudoriks. Hope to hear them on my next visit to Hidden Systems, if not before that.

Here's one thing I don't get: Mr Budd recommends diagonal connection on the rear of the speaker. Now, this could make sense in theory, given that the number of links that the signal must pass before reaching each filter and drive unit becomes equal for all. But if one listens to the alternatives, everyone who's ever done this finds that it sounds best connecting to + and - on the treble input. That's for single wire. For bi-wire (which I find worse, but that's another debate) the most musical option is +/- on treble and +/- on the uppermost bass (if there's several).

Don't they check these things by actually listening to them?
His explanation was the this wiring alternative provides the shortest path to the amplifier for the most significant back e.m.f. signals, while maintaining an equal impedance path from the amplifier outputs to each crossover input.
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by lejonklou »

lunch wrote:
lejonklou wrote:Don't they check these things by actually listening to them?
His explanation was the this wiring alternative provides the shortest path to the amplifier for the most significant back e.m.f. signals, while maintaining an equal impedance path from the amplifier outputs to each crossover input.
This is a perfect example of how one can end up in different places depending on what one is trying to achieve.

We have a few metal link plates in between power amplifier and loudspeaker. Good electrical conductors, unproblematic. But as any detail, they can make a difference. Where do we connect them? It depends on how we think they work and - above all - what we're trying to achieve. Maybe the shortest path to each drive unit, with equal impedance? Then diagonal must theoretically be a tiny bit better. Or maybe we want the most musical result? Then we don't really know how important equal impedance is or whether some drive units are in fact more important than others - and therefore should have priority. We must listen and compare the alternatives. And we find that treble inputs is the best connection scheme.

There are countless similar examples. What about the loudspeaker cable? It's right next to those metal link plates. Well, in a theoretical perspective, if we want the amplifier to control the drive unit as tightly as possible over the greatest possible frequency range, the shorter the cable is, the better it must be. At least as long as our power amplifier isn't of an unstable kind. And which model of cable should be used? It doesn't matter much if it's really short.

In a practical perspective, if we want the most musical result, we start by remembering that cables can have funny and unexpected properties. We also want the amplifier tightly connected to the drive unit, but this is not our primary objective - the most enjoyable musical performance is! So we compare, by ear, different models in different lengths, with different amps and different loudspeakers. It's a lot of work but we end up with 2.48 m of K200.

It goes on like this. Theory is important. Know-how and experience is important. But most important of all is remembering what we're trying to achieve.
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote: we end up with 2.48 m of K200.
I know that you tested on various speakers with same result, 2,48.
I'm quite sure you ALSO tested on both active and passive speakers - and after an external passive Xover (Klongedang) right?
Always ending up with 2,48.

But from the amp to Klångedang passive Xover it's not 2,48?
Hmmm...
Can you elaborate over this please?

PS
Have you ever tried open a passive speaker replacing all internal wires with 2,48m K200's?
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Re: Lejonklou/Linn System

Post by lejonklou »

Music Lover wrote:I'm quite sure you ALSO tested on both active and passive speakers - and after an external passive Xover (Klongedang) right?
Yes. With and without passive crossovers. Linn amps and my amps. It was the same difference between lengths and 2.48 was always best.

Klångedang T1 was the only one that was different, but then the construction is also different, with a separate passive serial crossover.

The first thing with T1 is that the filter likes to be close to the amps rather than to the speaker. So I tried 0.4 to filter and 2.48 to speaker = great! The reverse, 2.48 to filter and 0.4 to speaker was much worse. To continue, I tried 0.4 to filter and then varied the filter-to-speaker length. Here 2.48 m was optimal. Then I tried 2.48 m to filter AND 2.48 to loudspeaker. No good. Then various other lengths to filter and it seemed the shorter, the better. And regardless of length to filter, 2.48 was always best to speaker.

One thing I have not investigated is whether 2.48 is optimal to filter IF the cable filter-to-speaker is as short as possible. Maybe that is the case?

And I have also not investigated removing the filter from another speaker model and placing it as close as possible to the amp. Just like with T1: Passive filter next to the amp and then 2.48 m to the (filterless) loudspeaker. Maybe that's better than having the filter inside the speaker?
Music Lover wrote:Have you ever tried open a passive speaker replacing all internal wires with 2,48m K200's?
No. And given the bad result with two runs of 2.48 m for Klångedang T1 (amp-to-filter AND filter-to-speaker), I don't think it will be any good. But I don't really know.
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