How do you like your second system?

[Charlie1]

I’m trialling a Sneaky at home. It’s connected to the K104s in my study. They are sat on some thick felt on top of a display cabinet. The Sneaky is sat on a kitchen cropping board on the carpet, so none of it is what you would call optimal :) However, it sounds great to my ears!

I’ve ripped a few CD’s to the laptop (connected wirelessly), but most the time I’m streaming Tidal. This is usually good enough, but weirdly distorted on a rare occasion. I can understand the complaints about Tidal being worse than locally stored rips, but most of the music I’m playing has only ever been heard on a tuneless car radio/CD, so it’s much better.

I was expecting to struggle with music that I already have on vinyl. Whilst it’s clearly less tuneful on the DS, It remains engaging enough and I’m happy to carry on playing it as background music. At least it's not annoying and fatiguing like CD was back in the old days.

My music choices are all over the place and I’ve not listened to an entire album. I’m enjoying the freedom of choice, although often my mind goes blank when I try to think of something to play. I definitely feel the process of playing music is a bit soulless compared to vinyl. Admittedly vinyl’s sense of occasion becomes the norm, but I do feel it remains there underneath. Whereas I simply ‘consume’ music on the DS, just like most things in modern life and I don’t think it satisfies my appetite quite so deeply. It’s a bit like fast food. Perhaps a KDS/1 is like Gourmet fast food.

The next step is to connect the Sneaky to my main system, but the disadvantages of blasting the music from upstairs might be the deciding factor.

The family are enjoying it too. Could get be the novelty factor. Shame it can’t be connected to the TV.

[rowlandhills]

Hi Charlie. Sounds like it's working quite well as a second system.

With the things you've ripped to your local drive, how is that being done:
1 - Ripping software
2 - Rip format (FLAC, WAV etc.)
3 - Server software

On the last point:

Shame it can’t be connected to the TV.

Sounds like you really need a DSM...

[Charlie1]

With the things you've ripped to your local drive, how is that being done:
1 - Ripping software
2 - Rip format (FLAC, WAV etc.)
3 - Server software

I'm using Windows Media player to rip lossless WAV files. What do you do?

Ref MDSM, we'll put up with normal telly :)

[rowlandhills]

If you're on Windows, I'd recommend dBPowerAmp for ripping, and personally I prefer ripping to FLAC in order to embed the metadata (and since I can't hear the difference).

Are you using MinimServer?

[Charlie1]

If you're on Windows, I'd recommend dBPowerAmp for ripping, and personally I prefer ripping to FLAC in order to embed the metadata (and since I can't hear the difference).

I'll give it a go - thanks Rowland

Are you using MinimServer?

Yep, works fine - thanks! Any benefit using Kazoo server?

[rowlandhills]

One other comment I'd make in terms of physical setup is that since the Sneaky (and Renews) don't even have a display, there's really no need to have them visible, which can help with acceptability for the rest of the family, who only see the speakers.

[Charlie1]

One other comment I'd make in terms of physical setup is that since the Sneaky (and Renews) don't even have a display, there's really no need to have them visible, which can help with acceptability for the rest of the family, who only see the speakers.

Yes, I was already thinking that :)

[tokenbrit]

Hi Charlie1,

If you are thinking of connecting the Sneaky to the main system, it might be worth comparing WAV to FLAC to ALAC, ripped with Windows Media Player, dBPowerAmp, and iTunes respectively.

Linn originally indicated that WAV was better, but I wasn't able to hear a difference between WAV & FLAC until a demo of Klimax Exakt... I chose FLAC, originally, for exactly the reasons stated by Rowland.

A while ago, ThomasOK posted a about finding iTunes rips to ALAC sounding better. Given my experience with WAV vs FLAC, & my bias against all things Apple, I stuck with FLAC... Then I got the Sagatun Monos to got with the Tundra Monos. Over time, I have also upgraded from ADS/0 to KRDS to KRDS/1.

Prompted by the realisation that there is an audible difference between WAV & FLAC, I decided to try FLAC vs ALAC. Well, what do you know? I agreed with Thomas: ALAC was audibly & musically better than FLAC to my ears & with my significantly upgraded system. And this despite my expectation bias against Apple & iTunes, and my hope that there'd be no difference so I wouldn't need to re-rip. Even my wife, who hates these sort of 'marginal' A-B comparisons had no issue expressing a preference for ALAC.

So what of WAV? Well, for me that's a non-starter due to lack of metadata & album art handling, although Naim storage servers address that, at a price...

In summary, my recommendation: download iTunes and try ALAC against WAV & FLAC. You may not hear a difference through your second system, but you might if/when you connect the Sneaky to your main system. It's good to get this sorted from the beginning, before you build up a large(r) digital library. Of course, if you don't anticipate storing a lot of music on your laptop, or a NAS, then go with what's easiest for you. Above all, have fun.

[Charlie1]

Thanks tokenbrit. I'll have to see how it goes, but if I buy a NAS then I'll definitely check out ALAC based on your comments. It is quite good fun.

[tokenbrit]

It's easy to run iTunes on Windows - no need to wait for a NAS ;)

[ThomasOK]

With the things you've ripped to your local drive, how is that being done:
1 - Ripping software
2 - Rip format (FLAC, WAV etc.)
3 - Server software

I'm using Windows Media player to rip lossless WAV files. What do you do?

Ref MDSM, we'll put up with normal telly :)

I think he was probably talking about the Sneaky DSM. It also has HDMI and other digital inputs, a bit more powerful amp and runs a little over $2700 in the US as opposed to $1995 for the Sneaky DS. Same basic form factor but more flexibility and the ability to have much better TV sound for not a big step up in price.

On the ripping tokenbrit has already quoted me on this. Within the last few months he and another person both reported a musical preference for ALAC files and ripping with iTunes as I had some time back. This is on my LS-NAS which is running Windows 7 Home Edition. Interestingly the other reports of the musical quality of ALAC and iTunes were on a Mac and a Windows XP setup so it appears to hold across platforms.

I had also found that I preferred Songbook server over Asset and this was also duplicated by David Neel who cautions that the Kazoo server that replaced Songbook is not as good and was even less musical than Asset in his listening. I have not had a chance to duplicate the Kazoo vs. Songbook comparison yet.

[David Neel]

On the ripping tokenbrit has already quoted me on this. Within the last few months he and David Neel both reported a musical preference for ALAC files and ripping with iTunes as I had some time back. This is on my LS-NAS which is running Windows 7 Home Edition. Interestingly the other reports of the musical quality of ALAC and iTunes were on a Mac and a Windows XP setup so it appears to hold across platforms.

Not guilty! I think that was spannko... I've not got round to trying iTunes. Since I changed from Windows to Debian on the LSNAS, I've done no more ripping, and iTunes is not available for Linux. I do need to get a ripping setup sorted out, though the DS gets little use at the moment. And I'll also retry Kazoo Server when the version for Linux is released.

[Lego]

Glad to hear you've tried the sneaky Charlie .Interesting how you say your mind goes blank when choosing something to stream.I have the same problem .I thinks thats due to having no visual cues to browse.I experience the same with vinyl until I start flicking through my albums..although with vinyl because of the great insight we have into what we are listenig to I've usually decided what I'm going to listen to next before the album is finished...Ive thought about limiting myself to say 3 Tidal albums a week and listen to them alone rather than have that feeling of filling my boots..just a thought

[u252agz]

A nas drive with built in ripper and kinsky on an ipad/itouch to navigate, is a great way to browse ones cd collection and listen to music.

So much so, i keep putting off upgrading the 30 year old RP3 to a better turntable - not sure I could ever go back to using vinyl on a frequent basis.

I was quite wary of all this, but when my Linn dealer set up the sneaky and zoneripper with kinsky on my netbook and ripped 100 CDS for free, i was hooked and ripped my cd collection myself.

The sneaky outperformed my Ikemi CD player and I just stopped using the latter.

In 4 years, all I have ever had to do on occasion is either turn off and on the sneaky or the nas drive.

Even downloading from the Linn website is childs play with their app.

All my stuff is FLAC/24 bit download.

I am too content with the system to change from FLAC or upgrade the NAS.

PS if you do go for a nas drive, make sure the network switch and cables are the recommended ones

[Charlie1]

Thanks Leo and u252agz

If it gets more serious then I'll definitely buy the favoured switch and cabling.

[Charlie1]

Bought the Sneaky in the end. I think it's a great value little box. It's much more tuneful than my other digital sources and goes great with K104s. Very happy with it. Tidal is perfect for exploring new music - something I previously struggled with.

Ultimately, I miss the LP12 after a few days and need my fix of music in a way that the Sneaky and Tidal cannot deliver. LP12/Vinyl feels good for the soul, especially analogue recordings :)

I think there is a place for both though.

Thanks to Rowland for all his help.

[rowlandhills]

Glad to hear that you like it. Hopefully the DS for exploring new music and background while you're working, combined with your main LP12 system for more serious listening sessions will really give you the best of both worlds.

[Charlie1]

A few months on and the SDS is still here. I never could be bothered with ripping CDs and creating storage. I'm just not interested in spreading my music collection across two media. It's online streaming or nothing for me.

I'm using Spotify now. It sounds nice and clear through the K104's yet not brittle in any way. Whilst I like the actual sound, I've normally had enough after a few tracks. Something about it becomes tiresome when listening for longer periods than that. It's good for exploring new music and playing a couple of favourite tunes, but that's about it.

I did have Tidal for a short while. I think it was better in this respect, but that could also have been the novelty and excitement of having my first DS player. Writing this update makes me think I should give it another go.

Overall it's not a viable replacement for my main system when listening to music in my study, even though the main system is blasted out from an upstairs bedroom. This is nothing against the SDS itself since I'm not making best use of it via local storage, but for what I need, the solution isn't there yet, certainly not via Spotify.

[rowlandhills]

Interesting update Charlie1.

I think most people who've tried Tidal have found it somewhat uninvolving compared to local FLAC rips, and have fallen back to Spotify through a combination of cost, ease of use, and perhaps to some extent musicality. It might be worth trying Qobuz too, although the integration is not as good as Tidal.

Out of interest, do you find the rest of the family using the DS system at all?

Do you think that you'll keep it so you have the option for instant exploration of new music, or get rid of it at some point to fund an upgrade on the main system?

[lejonklou]

I agree that it's an interesting update.

It's clear that you belong to the small crowd of enthusiasts who really need a thrill from their system in order to enjoy it beyond a couple of favourite tunes.

[Charlie1]

Out of interest, do you find the rest of the family using the DS system at all?

My wife is not interested. My children enjoy dancing to the occasional tune that's popular with their peers, but my eldest often doesn't like loud music, although not always. It wouldn't be missed, put it that way.

Do you think that you'll keep it so you have the option for instant exploration of new music, or get rid of it at some point to fund an upgrade on the main system?

Knowing me ... as soon as I need the funds for an upgrade, then I'll sell it :)

[Charlie1]

I've gone back to Tidal for a while rather than complicate matters by introducing another variable (Qobuz). I certainly enjoy music streamed this way. It's significantly more tuneful than our car stereos. It's fun and easy. So I think I'll keep my little system now. I will probably switch to Qobuz once my subscription is expired, based on recent Tidal talk of digital fingerprinting and variable quality.

It's clear that you belong to the small crowd of enthusiasts who really need a thrill from their system in order to enjoy it beyond a couple of favourite tunes.

I think there is a threshold at some level where I can't enjoy music all of a sudden. This is the real killer for me (i.e. early CD). As much as I enjoy my Linn/Lejonklou Hi-Fi and the various upgrades, I don't think I'm actually that much of a fussy listener so long as I get a kick out of it. Spotify seems to drop below that threshold for whatever reason. It's possible a better DS player would improve things enough to make that vital difference, but I'm sceptical and not interesting in spending more money on this system.

[Lego]

Have you tried the Sneaky in your main system Charlie, if not due you intend to ?

[beck]

I tried to shift to cd when I was waiting for my new Klyde. It didn't work at all for me as replacement for my Sondek so I know the problem. That said I can enjoy my cheap ghettoblaster when listening to radio for a while.
Maybe it all comes down to what you expect when turning on your system!

[u252agz]

Yes - I agree ; expectations are everything.

I expect good background music from my sneakys ( one with ninkas and one with kef eggs) and am always impressed at how good this background music is. Having said this I never listen for more tan 15 mins or so- sometimes just the one track.

On the main system I expect really good music and that is what I get. Anything I change which downgrades the enjoyment is actually quite annoying and sometimes even upsetting.

The netgear FS108 (compared toGS108) was one such thing as was the internal volume control of the KDS/1 ( compared to AK/1).

I am sure that the music after each of these changes was far superior to sneaky and ninkas / kef eggs but expectations were different and until I recalibrated ( with KDS/1, but never with FS108) I preferred the sneaky.