Best sounding LAN cable for DS

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Music Lover
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Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote:What I wanted to question was the theoretical model for directionality.
Me too.
Preconceptions is a limiting factor in R/D and testing.
lejonklou wrote:It seems most of you are defining the DS as the target which all digital cables should be directed against. It can just as well be the switch.
Linnofil, I and a few others have tested this, hence my original question.
I also urges you all to test different rack positions, which is most important, the NAS or switch?
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by hcl »

Of the comparisons I have made on the digital side of the DS I have a feeling (NOTE! I have only compared a small number fo all the possible combinations and I have not tried the LSNAS ...) the most important improvements so far has been, somewhat in order of importance:

1. Cable between switch and DS
2. Switch (could be in the following order; type of switch, switch shelf, PSU for the switch)
and in unknown (but suggested as below) order of importance
. Number of discs in the NAS
. Cable from NAS to switch
. Type of discs in the NAS
. Cable from router to switch (I found that it was possible to improve the sound by tweaking this cable with a small iron bolt fastened along the cable)

There are alot of unsertainty in the ordering above so take it for what it is. It could be interesting if more people could make a similar ranking. We might end up with some common results and some contradictive ones. I think, as I sense Music Lower suggest, we need more statistics on this matter to be able to get a better understanding..
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Post by tokenbrit »

I was careful and deliberate to differentiate between cable direction and connection direction. A cable may sound better 'with text', but an optimal connection direction may not be 'with data' as we perceive it. If this is about better understanding through more statistics, I'm interested to know if others such as Music Lover, have found certain connections such as NAS to router to be a connection where the 'data direction' is not as we might expect...

If every cable and every connection has its own direction then can we really gain anything from other's results?
Last edited by tokenbrit on 2013-10-20 21:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lejonklou »

tokenbrit wrote:If every cable and every connection has its own direction then can we really gain anything from other's results?
This has never been the case in my experience, so don't worry.
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Post by tokenbrit »

lejonklou wrote:
tokenbrit wrote:If every cable and every connection has its own direction then can we really gain anything from other's results?
This has never been the case in my experience, so don't worry.
I'm not worried; just confused ;)
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Post by Ozzzy189 »

I've just checked both my cables, and they're both utp. Any link to a decent cheap UK based seller would be much appreciated. Nice thread. Thanks.
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Post by tokenbrit »

Ozzzy189 wrote:I've just checked both my cables, and they're both utp. Any link to a decent cheap UK based seller would be much appreciated. Nice thread. Thanks.
www.stuff-uk.net is where I got the MicroConnects for Thomas & myself - I can recommend them; they were very helpful.
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Post by richard »

With my 'digital network person' hat on, this does seem strange as the DS should just be buffering the digital data.

Things that spring to mind that could cause DS problems in general

(1) some sort of ground loop / grounding affect actually causing an effect on the end components (more likely with shielded cables i guess).
(2) Or your network is so broken that the data is being damaged / corrupted / lost in the cable (i.e tragic level as referred to by a previous post).
(3) something environmental. (i.e. RF interference)

However, if it (1) or (3) the same could be disrupting all of our systems.
(3) could be interesting as shielded cables seem to help you.

And of course it could have a big implication on Exakt which uses CAT5 to connect speakers to boxes and the Linn manual says the cable doesn't matter.

Is your environment electrically or RF noisy ? I.e do you live near an airport (radar), overhead power cables? How old is your house (I had to re-earth my house when I moved in to remove huge amounts of noise on the earth which was affecting my Unidisk 1.1 video quality at the time ?

Just some ideas. Thank you for spending the time discovering more - I know you must have spent many hours ..

Richard
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microconnect lan cables

Post by artikulate »

Thomas,

I live in Canada (london ontario). How would I get my hands on the microconnect lan cables you feel sound best. I am at a loss right now as to what to do for cabling in my DS system.The cables I am using now are just generic ones and Im sure they are not ideal. Thanks!!!!

Ron
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Post by donuk »

Forgive me if this area - another possible variable - has been examined here before, but there is the issue of Cross-over cabling.

Not knowing much about this myself, I have recently raised this on the Linn DS forum, and received some helpful replies. However the thought occurs to me that the use or not of crossover cabling between, e.g., hub and switch, just might have sonic implications.

Just a thought, anyway........

Don, overcast downtown York
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Re: microconnect lan cables

Post by ThomasOK »

artikulate wrote:Thomas,

I live in Canada (london ontario). How would I get my hands on the microconnect lan cables you feel sound best. I am at a loss right now as to what to do for cabling in my DS system.The cables I am using now are just generic ones and Im sure they are not ideal. Thanks!!!!

Ron
Ron, see the post 2 above yours by Tokenbrit as he is the one who acquired them for us. They are not sold in the US or Canada and most UK sellers will not ship here (although they might there). Since shipping is the same for 1 through 5 cables it is best to get a number of them.
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Re: microconnect lan cables

Post by tokenbrit »

ThomasOK wrote:
artikulate wrote:Thomas,

I live in Canada (london ontario). How would I get my hands on the microconnect lan cables you feel sound best. I am at a loss right now as to what to do for cabling in my DS system.The cables I am using now are just generic ones and Im sure they are not ideal. Thanks!!!!

Ron
Ron, see the post 2 above yours by Tokenbrit as he is the one who acquired them for us. They are not sold in the US or Canada and most UK sellers will not ship here (although they might there). Since shipping is the same for 1 through 5 cables it is best to get a number of them.
Ron, if you can PM me we can maybe set up a joint order to share in the int'l shipping cost. I had hoped to pick up some cables while here in the UK on vacation, but that didn't happen, so I might ask them to ship to the US. Contact me with the cable lengths that you want & I can see what it'd cost to include them in a single shipment, then we'd distribute as appropriate within US & to Ontario.
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Post by Music Lover »

richard wrote:Things that spring to mind that could cause DS problems in general

(1) some sort of ground loop / grounding affect actually causing an effect on the end components (more likely with shielded cables i guess).
(2) Or your network is so broken that the data is being damaged / corrupted / lost in the cable (i.e tragic level as referred to by a previous post).
(3) something environmental. (i.e. RF interference)

However, if it (1) or (3) the same could be disrupting all of our systems.
(3) could be interesting as shielded cables seem to help you.

And of course it could have a big implication on Exakt which uses CAT5 to connect speakers to boxes and the Linn manual says the cable doesn't matter.

Is your environment electrically or RF noisy ? I.e do you live near an airport (radar), overhead power cables? How old is your house (I had to re-earth my house when I moved in to remove huge amounts of noise on the earth which was affecting my Unidisk 1.1 video quality at the time ?
A few short comments
Close objects is an issue so airport radar likely isn't.
Shielded Cat cables will not help in 3) as RF will affect other objects connected you your setup.
And on 1) i would add dirt sent between units using cables (all sorts of cables)
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by hcl »

Music Lover wrote:
richard wrote:Things that spring to mind that could cause DS problems in general

(1) some sort of ground loop / grounding affect actually causing an effect on the end components (more likely with shielded cables i guess).
(2) Or your network is so broken that the data is being damaged / corrupted / lost in the cable (i.e tragic level as referred to by a previous post).
(3) something environmental. (i.e. RF interference)

However, if it (1) or (3) the same could be disrupting all of our systems.
(3) could be interesting as shielded cables seem to help you.

And of course it could have a big implication on Exakt which uses CAT5 to connect speakers to boxes and the Linn manual says the cable doesn't matter.

Is your environment electrically or RF noisy ? I.e do you live near an airport (radar), overhead power cables? How old is your house (I had to re-earth my house when I moved in to remove huge amounts of noise on the earth which was affecting my Unidisk 1.1 video quality at the time ?
A few short comments
Close objects is an issue so airport radar likely isn't.
Shielded Cat cables will not help in 3) as RF will affect other objects connected you your setup.
And on 1) i would add dirt sent between units using cables (all sorts of cables)
I would like to add that ground loops often is assumed not to be present as soon as one does not have a DC-ground loop. RF-vise there are always loops picking up interference. A DC ground-blockage is no protection, shielded cable can be, if properly designed (and manufactured). Sadly there seem to be few properly designed TCP/IP gear (if any). I spoke to one of the EMC experts at work the other day and he expressed some strong opinions regarding digital network stuff. He felt that EMC is a neglected field in computer networks. I will not recall the descriptive language he used for the guys designing such gear...

To be fair I think that the total design to cost commitment is a fair reason for the state of things. That does however not excuse the widely spread incompetence among digital designers regading how the products actually work and sometimes wont. Thankfully the increased demands for higher performance forces them to investigate this further. I think they wil come there sometimes soon, some are already there I presume.
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Post by ThomasOK »

I had some time this weekend (when Debbie was out of the house) to do a few more comparisons. This was made possible by toknebrit sending me an additional new 3m Microconnect cable and also a 5m one. My listening centered on comparing 2m, 3m and 5m versions in both NAS to switch and switch to DS positions and verifying best direction.

I used a completely different piece of music from last time: "What Happens Now?" by Porcupine Tree from the "Nil Recurring" EP. This starts out with an electronic keyboard, then some interesting drums come in, then some electric guitar and finally voice. Even as originally setup it was sounding quite good - very enjoyable and the drum rhythm definitely got my foot tapping. This was with a 3m cable from NAS to switch and 2m from switch to DS. However, substituting the second 3m cable made it even better; There was a subtle higher frequency component to the harmonics that I hadn't noticed previously that gave the keyboard more texture and made the choice of voicing clear. Also the keyboard gradually ramps up for the first 30 seconds. Interestingly with the 3m cable as the volume increased you could practically feel the keyboard player manipulating the pot - there was just something very real and natural about how the volume increased. When the drums came in at about 15 seconds they had more texture and you could feel the fun the drummer was having playing them. Then a little after 30 seconds the guitar comes in and the buzz of the strings sounded more natural and more like you were hearing the effect of the strings on the body and vice versa. All these things gave the music a more real feeling and it became more emotionally engaging. As the voice doesn't come in for over a minute I didn't use it as much for the comparisons but there was definitely more emotion in the vocals with the 3m in place.

Going back to the 2m everything still sounded good but these qualities, and the emotional involvement were diminished just a bit. Then I substituted the 5m and found it to loose a little more of the music than the 2m. Probably closer to the 2m than the 2m is to the 3m but still a good cable. These same findings held true when I changed to comparing the cables from the NAS to the switch and the level of differences seemed about the same.

Additionally I checked directionality of the cable form the NAS to the switch and from the switch to the DS and found them to be the same - with text. Interestingly I wasn't sure the direction made as much difference as the cable length, although it could just have been that it was a different type of change. I am not sure if this is what Music Lover was asking about when he wondered about the direction of the cable from the router to the NAS or not. In my system the NAS is not connected to the router except through the switch. Here is the topology of my network:

Living room:

NAS -> GS108T -> ADS with additional connection from GS108T to Airport Extreme (router) in back office.

Back office:

Airport Extreme acting as WAP and router connected directly to Living Room GS108T, Cable modem and Office GS108. Connections from Office GS108 to MacPro and printers.

So with this setup only the GS108T in the LR is connected between the NAS and the DS. The Airport Extreme router is really only used to supply the network addresses and for Internet Radio (which so far I am not really using).

Connection from the Airport Extreme to the LR GS108T is via a 10m new Microconnect cable and I did check the best direction here playing music off the MacPro and found it to be the same. I did not check whether the direction it is plugged in has an effect on the sound of the NAS feeding the DS nor will I for two reasons: 1) I already installed the 10m cable across the ceiling of the basement and inside the wall of the Office in what can only be described as a pain in the a** procedure. 2) Since I found that the DS sounds a very slight bit better without the connection back to the router I will most likely listen most of the time with it disconnected once I have the playlist put together. More often than not I create a play list and then use the Linn remote to skip around if desired.

There was one other thing Music Lover suggested I try which I also didn't do which is putting the switch on the top shelf and the NAS on the second one and see which I like better. I also won't do this test for the simple reason that my NAS is 7" tall and the spacing between shelves is 6.5"! However I did try moving around the switch with disappointing results. Disappointing in that I did hear musical differences and, of course, they weren't where things were the most convenient! The switch does sound best on the middle shelf rather than on the bottom one where I would rather have put it so I could put the CD ripping drive on the middle shelf. But worse than that the switch (or maybe the switch and the NAS) sounds best when the CD ripping drive isn't on the Yggdrasil rack AT ALL - even when it isn't connected to anything! Why can't the best way to set up something ever be the most convenient?

However, I came up with a nifty solution. Since my Yggdrasil is right next to my Mimer rack I will just move the Radikal from the fourth shelf when I am ripping CDs and place the CD ripping drive there. I would certainly expect that a Mimer shelf should be an adequate support for the ripping drive! When not in use it will just be somewhere in my record rack.

So now, with my switch on the middle shelf, NAS on top and CD drive nowhere in sight and with 3m new Microconnect cables going in the right direction and connected to the optimum ports I have digital reproduction that approaches analog to a higher degree than I ever have heard. I really enjoy it.
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Post by Pedro »

Hi Thomas,

your advices regarding the cables and the tip to test the different ports of the switch brought me a big step forward.

Thank you very much!

I have tried two 3 m Microconnect cables from NAS (QNAP) to switch (TP-Link TL-SG105) and switch to DS (AKDSM). They are a clear improvement over the standard cat 5 cables.
But the biggest (unexpected) improvement was achieved by discovering the ‘right’ port in the switch. The TP-Link switch has 5 ports. The port 5 was the most musical port for the NAS. Port 4 for the AKDSM.

When I opened the metal case in order to screw the bolts for the circuit board with the torque driver (0.38 Nm), I saw, that the 1. and 2. port have one chip, the 3. and 4. port have one chip and the 5. port has one chip on its own. Could this be an explanation for the best sound - improved efficiency?

I can confirm that the disconnection of the router - after filling the playlist - is an audible improvement which affects all my sources (QNAP, LP 12, UNIDISK 1.1, and sound of the Panasonic-Plasma-TV).

I have also tried a GISO isolator for galvanic separation of network connections in digital audio (www.acousence.de) between router and switch (and between switch and AKDSM), but the result was worse compared to the disconnection of the router. (The music was a little restrained.)

I have tried a direct link between the QNAP and the AKDSM (after filling the playlist) with one 3 m Microconnect cable, but this was also not an improvement. Perhaps the cable is too short.

Switch, QNAP and AC/AD-Adapter (with Longwell Power cord!) are placed on a TimeTable stand (http://www.timetable-hifi.de).

By now I enjoy the streaming results more and more, albeit the LP12 SE (still with AKIVA) is more enthralling with good records. Yesterday evening I listened to ‘Tin Can Alley’ from Jack DeJohnettes Special Edition Album (1981). The music is still more vivid with the LP12 compared to the streaming result from the cd.

I use dbpoweramp for ripping cd to flac with my laptop which is connected directly to the switch. (Encoder setting: Lossless Uncompressed).

My question: Can you recommend a separate CD/DVD drive for best ripping results?

Regards

Peter
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Post by ThomasOK »

Hi Peter, You're quite welcome. I'm glad these ideas are improving your system. The original recommendation of the MicroConnect SSTP cables came from Music Lover.

On the ripping DVD drive I haven't done much testing. I just went with what was recommended elsewhere on the forum. Here is what I posted on the Linnofil Super NAS thread.

• Drive: Samsung SH-224BB DVD drive
• Enclosure: Vantec NexStar DX Model NST-530SU USB 2.0 & eSATA
• eSATA Cable: Deltaco 1m
• Power cord: Linn

This is the drive that others recommended, the case is just one that seemed like it would be good.

I like that Special Edition album a lot. Back when we did most demos with vinyl I often used it. I especially used Zoot Suite as it takes a well sorted LP12 to make it sound in tune.
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Post by artikulate »

Hi Thomas,

I have another question for you which I have taken off line--- I have sent you an e-mail. Please check it out. Thanks!!
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Post by Music Lover »

ThomasOK wrote: Additionally I checked directionality of the cable form the NAS to the switch and from the switch to the DS and found them to be the same - with text. Interestingly I wasn't sure the direction made as much difference as the cable length, although it could just have been that it was a different type of change. I am not sure if this is what Music Lover was asking about when he wondered about the direction of the cable from the router to the NAS or not.
Good, but if you have time retest the direction (ds-108, 108-NAS) with all other cables removed from the 108.
ThomasOK wrote: There was one other thing Music Lover suggested I try which I also didn't do which is putting the switch on the top shelf and the NAS on the second one and see which I like better. I also won't do this test for the simple reason that my NAS is 7" tall and the spacing between shelves is 6.5"! However I did try moving around the switch with disappointing results. Disappointing in that I did hear musical differences and, of course, they weren't where things were the most convenient! The switch does sound best on the middle shelf rather than on the bottom one where I would rather have put it so I could put the CD ripping drive on the middle shelf.
hehe, I told you didn't I ;)
fyi after my tests I now have the 108 AND the LS-NAS on the top shelf.
Simply better!
(Harmonihylla dedicated to just network stuff)
Thinking of getting an Yggdrasil 1.2 (as 1.1 but bigger) for the NAS and Yggdrasil 1.1 for the 108 to be able to separate them.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by Rufus McDufus »

OK, I've got a couple of pairs of Microconnect cable and the markings are different again :(

Here's what's on the back of the packet. The 'S' on the end of SSTP603S indicates black cable. 'W' = white, 'B' = blue etc.
SSTP603S
SSTP CAT6 3M BLACK LSZH
5704327713197

On the cable is:
PATCH CORD CATEGORY 6 SSTP STRANDED 26AWG 4 PAIRS ANSI/TIA/EIA 568B UL LISTED LSZH

So it's essentially the same spec cable by the looks of it - SSTP is inherently equal to PiMF as far as I can see (Screen Shielded Twisted Pair, Pairs in Metal Foil'). But is it the same cable manufacturer? Impossible to tell.

Is everyone else's a model SSTP603{S,W,B,...} ?
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Post by Rufus McDufus »

Just got some Micronnects from stuff-uk.net and I can confirm the markings are identical to the ones from Amazon I posted in the previous post.
So something's changed recently. Well, I shall try them out!
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Chord ethernet cables

Post by hcl »

Anyone having tried these: Chord ethernet cables

At least they are somewhat expensive...
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Post by tokenbrit »

Is there any clever, practised way to unwind LAN cables? The MicroConnects come fairly tightly coiled and retain that coil after unwinding. Is there a way to get the cables to 'forget' their coil?

My network cabling looks like a bunch of loose slinkies :)
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Re: Best sounding LAN cable for DS

Post by Paaf »

In the HAKAI thread is recommended Blue Jeans Cable CAT6a. Are those much better than Microconnect also for us who don't have HAKAI?
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Re: Best sounding LAN cable for DS

Post by lejonklou »

Paaf wrote:In the HAKAI thread is recommended Blue Jeans Cable CAT6a. Are those much better than Microconnect also for us who don't have HAKAI?
I am not sure I'd say much better. But yes, better.
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