Best sounding LAN cable for DS

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Post by Music Lover »

What a mystery :|
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Post by lejonklou »

chris_m_brown wrote:no detectable difference in any subjective parameters using different LAN cables or storage devices
Hi Chris!

What is your setup like? I feel a bit surprised by your findings as I have found very clear differences myself between different cables and routers. To be honest, they have sounded quite alike sound-wise, but the timing and musicality has been clearly affected.
no difference in any measurable parameters in the digital domain
This is what I expected. Otherwise the DS machines would have been incorrectly designed in the first place.
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Post by lejonklou »

Sommerfee: Are you saying that you are sure that the best sounding cable with Auskerry software is NO LONGER the best sounding cable with Bute?

If that is the case, we will have great problems with the "recommended network gear for DS players", as it could be ever changing...
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Post by hcl »

As I am currently moving into a new place I have done some testing concerning LAN-cabling and it seems to me as the best way of connecting the DS to the network is by using a shielded cable (S-FTP) earthened only at the switch hence with the earth not connected at the DS end. I used a pre-terminated S-FTP cable and re-terminated it using a non-earthened RJ-45 connector. I compared it to both a standard UTP-cable (non earthend) as well as to a double shilelded CAT6 cable earthened at both ends. I also tried an optical bridge (Black-Box ...) but it seems that it is slightly worse than a shielded cable with the shield connected at both ends. I will try separating the NAS/switch/DS from the rest of the LAN gear (switch/modem/computer/control device etc.) to see if that makes any diffenece. I´ll report back as soon as I have any results.

EDIT: The switch (8-port Netgear) should ofcourse be earthened!
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Post by hcl »

I have now tried placing the optical bridge (Back-Box ...) between the NAS/switch/DS and the rest of the network gear and it seems promising. The network installation is now quite dense and needs re-organizing, but the prelimiary results is promising.
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Post by Music Lover »

hcl wrote: by using a shielded cable (S-FTP) earthened only at the switch hence with the earth not connected at the DS end.
Before testing WHERE the earth should be, did you test the cable direction?
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Post by hcl »

Music Lover wrote:
hcl wrote: by using a shielded cable (S-FTP) earthened only at the switch hence with the earth not connected at the DS end.
Before testing WHERE the earth should be, did you test the cable direction?
No. Unfortunately I have no earthened RJ-45 connectors so, at the moment, I can not re-terminate the earthened end (the cable where already cut at the un-shielded end from a previous installation).
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Post by sommerfee »

lejonklou wrote:Sommerfee: Are you saying that you are sure that the best sounding cable with Auskerry software is NO LONGER the best sounding cable with Bute?
No, unfortunately I'm not so sure anymore. The main problem is that I do not have a proper NAS yet (but ordered one finally today) and used my laptop instead. Furthermore a WLAN router was playing the role as WLAN access point and DHCP server. (This will change when the NAS arrives.) It's a Linksys one, but I have no audible difference if I use a Netgear one instead (or simply cut the connection after DHCP has done it's work), at least as long as I don't use it as switch, too.

Both should not make any difference on the LAN cable result, but since we don't know why there are differences I'm very unsure about such statements.

What I know for sure is that I got a catastrophic result when I updated my Auskerry-optimized system to Bute, while other ones claimed that Bute is better (in terms of tune-dem) than Auskerry. And that the system got good as ever when I downgraded to Auskerry again. But is this really the fault of the Auskerry-optimized LAN cable? Or is something different the reason for this?

It's really mysterious, but I don't know if I will ever have the energy to try to optimize a buted DS from the stretch to get an idea what the relevant parameters are. I was already tired of testing software updates after all the worse-sounding Unidisk software releases, and I never updated my Kontrol to the newest software (and never will).
Last edited by sommerfee on 2008-07-13 08:28, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Music Lover »

Don't give up!
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by vicdiaz »

sommerfee wrote:But what I know for sure is that I got a catastrophic result when I updated my Auskerry-optimized system to Bute, while other ones claimed that Bute is better (in terms of tune-dem) than Auskerry.
BE AWARE that firmware upgrades are affected by the way the planets and the Moon are aligned and last weekend there was a HUGE planet alignment with the Moon.

Just kidding!!! :mrgreen:

For sure one thing that affects the upgrade perception is the mood in which a person is and the weather. In my case I never listen to music when I'm in a bad mood (not frequently!!!) or when its raining a lot (I don't know why but maybe scared of my system blowing up because of lighting strikes?)
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Post by lejonklou »

vicdiaz wrote:For sure one thing that affects the upgrade perception is the mood in which a person is and the weather.
For people who are experienced with the Tune Method, mood and weather will not affect the outcome much.

I have no problems telling that a system sounds really good even when I'm in a lousy mood and don't like the music being played.

I am still really curious about your findings, Axel. If you feel tired of it all, just give it a long rest. I hope your enthusiasm will return later!
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Post by vicdiaz »

lejonklou wrote:
vicdiaz wrote:For sure one thing that affects the upgrade perception is the mood in which a person is and the weather.
For people who are experienced with the Tune Method, mood and weather will not affect the outcome much.
Yeah right... Ask my wife...

:roll:
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Post by Lego »

vicdiaz wrote:
sommerfee wrote:But what I know for sure is that I got a catastrophic result when I updated my Auskerry-optimized system to Bute, while other ones claimed that Bute is better (in terms of tune-dem) than Auskerry.
BE AWARE that firmware upgrades are affected by the way the planets and the Moon are aligned and last weekend there was a HUGE planet alignment with the Moon.

Just kidding!!! :mrgreen:

For sure one thing that affects the upgrade perception is the mood in which a person is and the weather. In my case I never listen to music when I'm in a bad mood (not frequently!!!) or when its raining a lot (I don't know why but maybe scared of my system blowing up because of lighting strikes?)
Vicdia !Rain falls on the Linn factory most of the time,that's what inspires them to produce great gear,I suppose the noise of water clattering against the windows is not conducive to a peaceful environment for listening to music so you may be on to something. :?
But remember next time it rains think of Glasgow as it's probably raining here too,and when its sunny think of us again as it's probably still raining..Listening to appropriate music when your down and your system is up to scratch should raise your spirits even Youtube can do it,check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPqK1JJOFxw
I know that tune
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Post by vicdiaz »

Lego wrote: Vicdiaz ! Rain falls on the Linn factory most of the time,that's what inspires them to produce great gear,I suppose the noise of water clattering against the windows is not conducive to a peaceful environment for listening to music so you may be on to something. :?
But remember next time it rains think of Glasgow as it's probably raining here too,and when its sunny think of us again as it's probably still raining..Listening to appropriate music when your down and your system is up to scratch should raise your spirits even Youtube can do it,check this out.
Weird, when I visited the Linn factory back in Sept. 1997 it was not raining. Lucky me!!! :mrgreen:

Contrary to popular belief, here in the Caribbean is not sunny every single day. I admit there are sunny spells in which we don't get a single drop of rain for weeks, but when it rains, it pours for weeks or months!!!

I'm wondering what has been the fate of the cows across Linn's loading dock...
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Post by chris_m_brown »

Sorry about the delay - I only pop by once in a while. It's an interesting forum but the rate of change is low.

I have Espeks active with a 6100, a Majik Kontrol and an Akurate DS. I have a second system with a Sneaky DS and a pair of the in wall custom Komponents.

Having been involved in some high quality PC based music playback device projects, I know a little bit about designing motherboards for minimising digital/analogue interaction. My experience in these projects suggests that the influence of the LAN cable is negligible. it is simply a pipeline capable (or otherwise) of delivering a bit stream. Since the bit rates involved in a DS system are entirely trivial compared with the cat 5 spec I guess I'm struggling to understand how it could have an audible effect unless the DS is very badly designed, but hey... I've been wrong before!

My main worry would be that if the performance of a DS is affected by such a parameter as LAN cable quality, how would one optimise the design? If Lan cable quality above a certain threshold is a variable then the design is wrong...

Suppose Linn brings out an 802.11(whatever) equipped DS. And suppose one detected audible differences dependent upon the wireless access point used to transmit the data? I would suggest that one would be wrong.

I respect the tune dem method as an analysis tool for comparing the relative desirability of two sets of operating parameters - for example different cartridge bias settings. If I am a Linn designer, then tune dem provides me a goal and helps me make a choice between two designs or two components. I'm slightly more sceptical when tune dem is used to differentiate two systems where no scientifically measurable differences exist.

If I assert that my system is more tuneful when I introduce a 3cm x 3cm x 3cm Ice cube into the listening room then I am clearly an idiot. Because it is a dimensionless quality, tune dem will always be an opinion, no matter how objectively it is expressed. I guess it comes down to experience and respect for the reviewer. But ultimately, that's somewhat unsatisfactory if one cannot correlate it with a measurable parameter.

By the way, spuriously hijacking the thread...Bearing in mind that I can't afford a pair of Akurate 242s

A. The in wall Komponents mentioned above seem to have some real timing advantages over the Espeks

B. Assuming that's down in part to the 2k array, would Majik 140's be a significant upgrade on the Espeks?
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Post by Music Lover »

chris_m_brown wrote: My main worry would be that if the performance of a DS is affected by such a parameter as LAN cable quality, how would one optimise the design? If Lan cable quality above a certain threshold is a variable then the design is wrong...
chris_m_brown wrote: I'm slightly more sceptical when tune dem is used to differentiate two systems where no scientifically measurable differences exist.
Speaker cables sound better/are more musical in one direction but can you measure that?
Is the design of the amp/speakers then wrong?

I think we still have a lot to learn designing HIFI.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by ThomasOK »

Music Lover wrote:
chris_m_brown wrote: My main worry would be that if the performance of a DS is affected by such a parameter as LAN cable quality, how would one optimise the design? If Lan cable quality above a certain threshold is a variable then the design is wrong...
chris_m_brown wrote: I'm slightly more sceptical when tune dem is used to differentiate two systems where no scientifically measurable differences exist.
Speaker cables sound better/are more musical in one direction but can you measure that?
Is the design of the amp/speakers then wrong?

I think we still have a lot to learn designing HIFI.
Very well said. There are any number of things - cable directionality, tightness of screws in an electrical connection, cable burn in, what wood an LP12 plinth is made of, etc. - that make sonic differences that are currently beyond our capacity to measure, at least in any way that correlates to the sonic differences. The false idea that we can't hear differences that we can't measure has been used to justify claims such as "all amplifiers sound alike" "the only important measures of turntable performance are rumble and wow & flutter" or, probably worst of all, "Perfect sound, forever" (as was claimed for the CD medium when introduced by Philips) all of which were stated by various mainstream Hi-Fi magazines at various times over the last five decades.

Until we learn that we are woefully short of being able to measure more than the smallest fraction of what we have the ability to experience, we will continue to limit ourselves in terms of what we can accomplish.

And as to the ice cube, it all depends on HOW you introduce it to the listening room. Placing it over the vents of the amplifier will obliterate the tune completely in a short while. Placing it on the bearing of the tonearm is likely to make things sound worse and on the headshell worse still. :)
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Post by chris_m_brown »

I notice that you didn't cite the green CD pen or the solid beech Naim amplifier knob! :-)

I guess what I am saying is that unless you can determine a parametric correlation then what you have found is of little value.

Suppose you found that LAN cable A was better with the Kilmax DS than cable B, C, D, E, F, G, H....and trust me, there are a really quite collosal number of LAN cables available for purchase in today's market

So, Linn comes out with the Akurate DS. Because you have absolutely no theoretical conecpt of why Lan cable A was best then you have no predictive basis to work upon. You absolutely CANNOT say that cable A will be best with the Akutrate because you have absolutely no idea why it worked well with the Kilmax in the first place.

So, you have to get out your set of 38 Lan cables and start the evaluation all over.

And then Linn come out with the Sneaky DS and the Majik and it looks like you'll mostly be having nights in until the end of 2010.

My point is that if you 'know' that the Netgear ReadyNAS duo is 'the most muscial NAS' and you have absolutely no idea as to why that might be then you will have absolutely no idea why it might become superceded and what the most musical NAs with the Majik DS might be. Because you have no idea why it is the most hen you have no idea when it might become the least muscial.

Perdiction is everything, unless you have a spectacular amount of free time on your hands.
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Post by chris_m_brown »

...meant to say that if you are going to attibute hard disks with musicality then you are in for a hill of pain. Hard disk product liftetime is on average about 1/500th of your average Linn component. Trust me, there is not going to be enough time to audition them all.
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Post by hcl »

You have a point, but - we who desire to go the DS rout have to select a NAS and some LAN equipment to get it running. So why not test a couple of units before determining what to buy and simply select whats produces the best end result? It is a completely different ballgame when you design such stuff, but that is not our main consern, just to get the most of whats available on the (local) market.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Never heard of the Birch knob for the Naim mod - must be a UK thing. In the US Maple is supposed (by some) to be the sonic wood of choice, also by certain Italians. :) Personally, I am currently pretty enamored by Movingui. :wink:

I do thoroughly understand your point about the difficulty involved in evaluating the variables in a streaming music system. I worked in computer sales, support and service for 14 years and am quite well aware of the nearly limitless permutations of CAT5/5e/6 cables, etc. I certainly feel that trying to find the best would be a daunting task that would far surpass the difficulty of the power cable evaluations I recently performed and posted in another thread. But difficulty should never be confused with impossibility.

To me one of the great things about a forum like this is that each interested person might derive some pleasure in finding the best among a handful of cables (or network switches or hard drives) that they have access to and sharing that info with others. With a number of such posted experiences a consensus starts to form giving all of us a few well regarded possibilities to try for ourselves and to compare to others we have on hand. Since the judgements here are based the same criteria (tune method) there is a higher level of consistency in findings than I see on most other forums leading to a smaller and more universally agreed upon group of recommendations.

Also, although there is always an exception here and there, I have found that what works for one good system works for another good system. (One of those exceptions is that Linn Silver Balanced cables apparently sound better on the Klimax DS and worse on the Akurate DS than unbalanced, but they have different analog output stages which would account for this inconsistency.) Because of this I expect that the best hard drive or CAT5 cable for the Klimax DS would also be the best for the Sneaky DS and all those in between. I believe it would even be the best for a Squeezebox 3 or Duet, although the difference might be hard to hear through the more limited resolution of those devices.
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Post by Music Lover »

ThomasOK wrote: I certainly feel that trying to find the best would be a daunting task that would far surpass the difficulty of the power cable evaluations I recently performed and posted in another thread. But difficulty should never be confused with impossibility.
One other item to consider is that just a few tests can take you away from the WORST cables, NAS, switches etc - and that is also important :!:
What I'm saying is that if we can get to 80% of max performance with limited number of tests, that is good enough for now.
Over time we going to learn more and be able to get more out of the DS.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by Music Lover »

ok friends - performed some tests...
Found a cat6 that I liked.
Generally speaking cat5 seeems less good (tried 10+)
Just tested two cat7 (less good) so the jury is still out on these. Have a few more to test in the bag.
This cable was also the best of 4 other cables tested at the Linn dealer.

Back to the cat6. The good one is from Micro Connect.
Info on the label on the plastic bag.
Cable SSTP 3meter, CAT6 WHITE LSZH
Batch_ID; 100001


Text on the cable
Type CM 24AWG 60 deg C (UL) E188630 CSA LL81295 CMG ETL VERIFIED TIA/E1A-568-B.2-1 CAT6 Patch Cable S-FTP LSZH EVERNEW 8180JH020

It was best with the text running in same direction as the information.
(some cables are clearly better in one direction, some cables less so)
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by ThomasOK »

Over the last weekend I finally had a chance to do some CAT6 cable comparisons as I had the LS-NAS setup with a separate Netgear GS108 switch to connect it to the ADS/1. For over a year I have had a couple of the APC cables recommended in the beginning of this thread and a couple of the MicroConnect recommended by Music Lover but have had no effective way to test them. Now with this setup I had my opportunity.

First off, both brands of cable were a lot better than my generic cables I have in the rest of my network. The improvement of the better cables could actually swamp the difference between a couple of similar NAS units. I also found the directionality of the cables audible but it made a smaller difference than the cable itself.

After doing a few A/Bs I feel that the MicroConnect, spec as per the Music Lover post above - 3m White, etc., is more musical than the 1m APC. As Sommerfee pointed out the APC was most musical with the text going in the direction of the switch to the DS. However, I felt the MicroConnect was more musical with the text running in the opposite direction, from the DS to the switch or Against Text. This is different from what Music Lover found and it was the last test in a few hours of testing so I could have gotten it wrong. I plan on repeating these tests soon and again once I have the Deltaco SATA cables inside the NAS. However, I felt that the MicroConnect in either direction was more musical than the APC so this is my reference cable and I am getting a couple more so that the music related signal can always travel through one of these cables, even with different network layouts. I feel this is good news as well since the APC cables appear to be discontinued and unavailable. So if you haven't tried a good CAT6 cable I would give these a listen. Thanks Sommerfee and Music Lover fro creating this topic and recommending these cables.
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Post by ThomasOK »

A little additional testing yesterday and I found I was wrong on the direction of the MicroConnect. I'm sure it will come as no surprise to Music Lover and others that I find the MicroConnect cable to be more musical in the With Text direction. I still find that they sound really good both directions, and that the APCs also sound quite good. But the musical quality of the MicroConnect is superior and best in the with text orientation.

I am guessing that the reason for my initial contradictory finding might have been that the cable had no burn-in time at all when I did my earlier listening test and as mentioned it was a quick test at the end of a long session. Now the cables have around 100 hours of burn in and the cable directions (and another comparison of the two cables) were the first tests I conducted yesterday. With everything continuing to settle in the LS-NAS continues to improve.
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