Akurate DS

[fgarciab]

However (why is there always a catch) I found the A-DS suffered from sibilance. The A-CD & K-DS did not. It is the same sibilance that put me of the Majik-CD.
Can anybody confirm this or is it just a matter of warming up/running in. Slight variation in models?

My experience with the Akurate DS is just the opposite. In a A-B text with a Unidisk 1.1 (with Aktiv 242 with Chakra X100) the sound from the Akurate DS was much more relaxed and warm than the sound from the Unidisk CD. Sibilance? I heard nothing. Sound was warmer and with better bass definition and control in the Akuate DS. Tune Dem was also much better in my opinion with the DS , maybe less spectacular with some music in the sort term but much more musical than Unidisk CD. I could almost always tell the difference with the Unidisk 1.1 and the Akuarte DS was always superior. It goes without saying that with a Master Recording the difference was impressive.

[Music Lover]

The hump though at 3kHz is just below the range of the human voice and usually represented by the bass units.

No, it's not.

[chris_m_brown]

As far as I understand it, the DS range of players are networked digital devices, in the same way that your computer is a networked digital device.

Observing a dfifference between two different digital cables is analagous to observing a different presentation of a web page when switching to a lower quality cable between your router and your PC. The protocol ensures that this doesn't happen, and lets be honest, it doesn't happen. Cable quality is demonstrably a non-concept.

I like the concept of tune dem because it provides a consistent and reproducable framework for judging one's emotional response to different interpretations of HIFI playback. However, I do worry that total reliance upon a psychologically influenced measurement system for judging the relative merits of equipment might be flawed and leaves us open to ridicule, particularly when our ears are able to detect differences where the best monitoring equipment available to modern science suggests that there is none.

[audiokaas]

The hump though at 3kHz is just below the range of the human voice and usually represented by the bass units.

No, it's not.

:oops: it's just above sorry
But hey am I wrong on the crossover as well?
I understand the ninka's crossover is just above 3k, and I thought the 242 array was above that as well.

???. :|

[lejonklou]

As far as I understand it, the DS range of players are networked digital devices, in the same way that your computer is a networked digital device

There is a fundamental difference between these two, and that is that the DS is recreating a signal that is time-dependent and the computer is not.

Your analogy is as old as the CD medium (where digital systems started for consumers) and unfortunately it's false. When recreating a time-dependent signal, you also have the time dimension to get right, which in reality is very difficult. Even low frequencies close to DC that are transmitted through a ground connection can affect this - which in part explains the difference in sound quality experienced with different cables.

I understand your point, Chris, but the reality is that the perceived differences almost always have a rational explanation.

[Music Lover]

But hey am I wrong on the crossover as well?
I understand the ninka's crossover is just above 3k, and I thought the 242 array was above that as well.

These are the crossover points in 242; 225, 450, 3.6k, 9.2k

[audiokaas]

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

[hcl]

There is a big difference between the interface between transport and DAC in a two box CD-player system and the DS-concept. The serial data stream between transport and DAC also carries the clock whitch has to be recoverd (filtered) in the DAC before it is feed to the D/A-converter. In the DS system the clock resides in the DS-player and there is only the digital representation/information of the music that is retreaved over Ethernet. However it is likely that the other units as well as choise of cables etc may affect the sound to some degree as these things have a major impact on the electrical disturbances (EMC-environment) affecting the system. Fortunately these aspects should have much less importance to the performance as it is much more easy to design for high immunity towards ths kind of disturbance.

[zeedje]

Hi paolo, Do you think a crossover cable is the best method of connectivity then?

Paolo any thoughts about this?

I am quite new to networks but normally less is more...or?

I think it would be good to skip the switch if possible. Is it a way to communicate with the NAS and have the DS directly connected to the NAS :?

Any ideas?

/Zed

[sommerfee]

I think it would be good to skip the switch if possible. Is it a way to communicate with the NAS and have the DS directly connected to the NAS :?

You could buy a NAS with integrated WLAN Access Point, for example an Intradisk: http://intradisk.com/en/produkte/basisprodukt.html

In this case a direct connection between NAS and DS should be sufficient.

Axel

[Charlie1]

I've got a spare 1m crossover and don't mind posting it out if someone wants to give it a go. It would be interesting to find out if it makes a difference. Although, I wonder if having a DS and PC located so closely together is a good idea. I have a longer crossover, but need that myself.

[paolo]

As far as I understand it, the DS range of players are networked digital devices, in the same way that your computer is a networked digital device.

Observing a dfifference between two different digital cables is analagous to observing a different presentation of a web page when switching to a lower quality cable between your router and your PC. The protocol ensures that this doesn't happen, and lets be honest, it doesn't happen. Cable quality is demonstrably a non-concept.

I like the concept of tune dem because it provides a consistent and reproducable framework for judging one's emotional response to different interpretations of HIFI playback. However, I do worry that total reliance upon a psychologically influenced measurement system for judging the relative merits of equipment might be flawed and leaves us open to ridicule, particularly when our ears are able to detect differences where the best monitoring equipment available to modern science suggests that there is none.

Chris,
I fully understand your comments. As I wrote before, studying, understanding and designing data networks is part of my job so I'm the first one to be absolutely surprised by certain results.

BTW I'm convinced that the differences I've reported are not to be ascribed to digital reason, but to analogical ones. Klimax DS is both a digital AND an analogical machine and the outside environment can possibly influence the way it works both in the digital and in the analogical domain. I mean, all the elements of the chain (again: NAS, network devices, network cables) participate both to the data transmission AND to an analogical circuit (the network carries the numerical data via analogical waveform voltages). In a word, the DS is not an "insulated system" so everything is connected can possibly influence it - Fredrik's suggestion that one of the ways could be the interaction through the ground wires makes a lot of sense to me.

Fortunately these aspects should have much less importance to the performance as it is much more easy to design for high immunity towards ths kind of disturbance.

Yes I agree it should be so and partially it is IMO. Anyway the differences I've experienced are to my ears musically significative. I'm just reporting my very personal findings so please if you're interested try by yourself (and report!). At the moment I've just accepted a number of results and I'm trying to understand some possible reasons, no more than that.

Charlie1, Zeedie, I've tried connecting a crossover cable between a PC that contains a musical library and the DS. It sounds better than a USRobotics switch(/router) but I cannot conclude it is the best method - pure theory says it shouldn't make any difference for our needs using a switch or a cross cable infact. Also it must be noted that a cross cable is not a confortable nor flexible solution to live with, infact no other control device can connetc to the system - you must use a PC with the Linn GUI installed on it. The PC could have a second interface to go out to Internet and connect to freeDB, so you can still use ripping softwares and make the library grow.
For those who are interested I've tried also a Netgear Gigabit switch: it "sounds" worse than the USRobotics FastEthernet switch/router. Again, I don't know the reason, though one interesting point could be to understand if the difference is related to the port speed of the two devices.

Paolo

[hcl]

Fortunately these aspects should have much less importance to the performance as it is much more easy to design for high immunity towards ths kind of disturbance.

Yes I agree it sh$ould be so and partially it is IMO. Anyway the differences I've experienced are to my ears musically significative.

I agree too and it does not contradict what I said. It is obvious that even small disturbances can make significant differences.

I'm just reporting my very personal findings so please if you're interested try by yourself (and report!). At the moment I've just accepted a number of results and I'm trying to understand some possible reasons, no more than that.

Charlie1, Zeedie, I've tried connecting a crossover cable between a PC that contains a musical library and the DS. It sounds better than a USRobotics switch(/router) but I cannot conclude it is the best method - pure theory says it shouldn't make any difference for our needs using a switch or a cross cable infact. Also it must be noted that a cross cable is not a confortable nor flexible solution to live with, infact no other control device can connetc to the system - you must use a PC with the Linn GUI installed on it. The PC could have a second interface to go out to Internet and connect to freeDB, so you can still use ripping softwares and make the library grow.
For those who are interested I've tried also a Netgear Gigabit switch: it "sounds" worse than the USRobotics FastEthernet switch/router. Again, I don't know the reason, though one interesting point could be to understand if the difference is related to the port speed of the two devices.

Paolo

I think that Linn are in a much better position to investigate these things as they should be able to monitor both primary and secodnary (audiably) effects of changes due to external equipment. I mean we are trying in blind while they should be able to investigate these things open, thus much more effective. Where I work this is rather basic stuff. Ofcourse we can do what we can to help identifying unknown disturbance sources and causes but I feel they are the one in position to solve the problems where they best should be solved.

One problem for us may be that different installations may have different problems and may require different solutions if the problem is not fixed where it is best fixed.

I would like Linn to point out for us the following:
1. Should we use shielded ethernet cables?
2. Should the shield be connected at both ends? If not, Which end of the shield should be connected to earth?
3. Is it better to use short or long cables?
4. What grade of cables should be used?
5. Which switch do they recommend?

/hcl

[Music Lover]

Also it must be noted that a cross cable is not a confortable nor flexible solution to live with, infact no other control device can connetc to the system - you must use a PC with the Linn GUI installed on it. The PC could have a second interface to go out to Internet and connect to freeDB, so you can still use ripping softwares and make the library grow.

Not sure I agree Paolo. No need to have all that equipment hooked up.

Less is more --> connect DS to a PC with a cross cable. Nothing else than the music files should be on that PC. Well, except the Linn GUI and related SW to pass the files to the DS. To that PC you have a small monitor. If you then creates mart playlists, i.e. one for each artist (example all tunes from Sting) you then have all his music and can use the DS remote controlling it.

Then you use another PC for ripping CD's. And that PC have internet connection
And after ripping new CD's, just copy the files to the "music file PC".

I don't want to have my DS (when getting one) in a network with routers/switches and all other equipment that can transfer garbage to the DS.
And having the "DS network" connected to Internet is a big NO NO for me.

[paolo]

Less is more --> connect DS to a PC with a cross cable. Nothing else than the music files should be on that PC. Well, except the Linn GUI and related SW to pass the files to the DS. To that PC you have a small monitor. If you then creates mart playlists, i.e. one for each artist (example all tunes from Sting) you then have all his music and can use the DS remote controlling it.

Music Lover, I agree this is a good and minimal solution which surely works fine (and probably sounds the best). I think however it can be a bit limiting in perspective.
You cannot use any wireless control device (which is very convenient as you can imagine) unless possibly using on the PC a second interface connected to the domestic LAN. Nor you can use a storage device which cannot support a control software on it - such as a common NAS (unless relying again on a second interface, if the NAS can have it - many of them can't).
Moreover, you cannot access the contents of the library from any other device except the directly connected DS - while the possibility to use other UPNP renderers (Linn or not) in other rooms can be in general quite appealing.

In the end, there are surely a few ways to implement a fine working isolated DS-MusicLibray system, but I feel that a number of very interesting characteristics of this new technology gets inevitably lost this way.

Paolo

[paolo]

I would like Linn to point out for us the following:
1. Should we use shielded ethernet cables?
2. Should the shield be connected at both ends? If not, Which end of the shield should be connected to earth?
3. Is it better to use short or long cables?
4. What grade of cables should be used?
5. Which switch do they recommend?

/hcl

Hcl, I totally agree on this. Linn has published a list of "approved" devices for their DS machines, anyway I guess it is still mainly a list of devices which have been tested and don't induce issues with the system - no real focus on audio performance involved.

Paolo

[Music Lover]

Yes, but performance is key for me so I pass on the more complex flexible architecture. :D

If anyone need to access the music files they can use the ripping PC that host a backupp.
An isolated dedicated DS system also eliminate the risk that family members mess up anything related to the DS. 8)

[sommerfee]

Just a short note that my dealer and I have replaced an 1.5m UTP24 patch cable (which was shipped with the router) with an 3m SFTP26 cable, and the tune-dem+sound difference was definitely relevant, the system is performing better now. Will do more tests within the next days.

[Charlie1]

Yes, but performance is key for me so I pass on the more complex flexible architecture

Not that I own a Klimax or Akurate DS, but I'm with ML on this. If I'd spent £10k or whatever on a DS, I'd want to put performance first. I suppose if it's a really small improvement, then I might be tempted to go with convienience, but generally I'd put up with quite a bit of fuss if it meant better Tune Dem. But then I play vinyl, so I'm used to it!

Just a short note that my dealer and I have replaced an 1.5m UTP24 patch cable (which was shipped with the router) with an 3m SFTP26 cable, and the tune-dem+sound difference was definitely relevant, the system is performing better now.

You could also try ScTP (aka FTP) which, like SFTP, is heavily shielded.

[JohnS]

This is a fascinating subject.

Are people saying that RFI on an ethernet cable may effect the DS, or is it that network contention could cause issues?

For the network contention I was thinking of running a dedicated XP based server with Twonky and all the music files installed and then using a network switch between the two devices with an uplink connection to the rest of my network. That way traffic between the Server and DS devices is totally isolated and there is no interference with other traffic and then the control device can be anywhere else on the network (I use cidero on a laptop). DHCP will also work and I can copy files to the dedicated server without problems. I think this will isolate the traffic and allow me to transfer files as required. I want it to communicate with the rest of my network if possible.

However, I can't currently hear any difference on the DS when I stress the network for other things and the traffic volumes for the DS is low.

For RFI on the ethernet cable, I've never heard of this in 20 years in IT, but you never know!

Sommerfee - what cable did you use, I can't find it on google, is there a supplier you can point me to? If they work, I would use these between the server, switch and DS. Is it a simple crossover cable?

I'll also try a simple crossover cable later this week, but hadn't though of a special cable.

Strange effects.

[JohnS]

I found SFTP cables on expansys, lots of colours and lengths, but no crossover.

[Charlie1]

Are people saying that RFI on an ethernet cable may effect the DS

I couldn't say if RFI has any effect - it was just a suggestion to try another cable specification. If summerfree has found that 'SFTP26' provides better Tune Dem compared with his previous cable then it suggests that the cable can make a difference. Whether that's due to cable specification, cable length, quality of termination in the connector or another factor I don't know. But in any case, trying other cables may be worthwhile and one other type to try is ScTP (FTP).

I'm not sure, but I think ScTP is a Cat6 spec and SFTP is Cat7, so ScTP is probably better shielded, but as we don't know the actual reason for an SFTP cable providing better Tune Dem, ScTP could still out perform it. I think it's a case of 'Suck it and See' as they say (i.e. give it a try). We just need to bare in mind that the cable spec could be a red herring and Summerfree's cable could be better for some other reason.

At least these cables are cheap and relatively easy to get hold of. For anyone working in a medium sized office, I'm sure your IT department will have a selection that you can borrow. And if they don't have them as a crossover, you could always ask them nicely to make some up for you.

[sommerfee]

If summerfree has found that 'SFTP26' provides better Tune Dem compared with his previous cable then it suggests that the cable can make a difference.

Yes, I fear so. I really believed that the patch cable won't make a difference (and I really hoped so), and without Paolos post I possibly would never have tried it.

Anyway: I've done some more test in the last hour, but think it better to start an own DS patch cable thread, so I will do so.

See here: http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=267

Axel

@JohnS: You could also use a normal patch cable and a crossover connector.

@Charly1: It's "sommerfee" (german for "summer fairy"), not "summerfree". But a free summer is a good idea, too :lol:

[Music Lover]

P.S. about crossover: You could also use a normal patch cable and a crossover connector.

I suggest not, as that likely is less good

[Charlie1]

Charly1: It's "sommerfee" (german for "summer fairy"), not "summerfree". But a free summer is a good idea, too

Oops - sorry Sommerfee.