Replacing the DS?

[David Neel]

What are my options to replace a Linn DS? I don't really understand what a DS does, and whether it could be replicated by a combination of software and an external DAC.

I have an LSNAS. Is there a music player software program which would turn the LSNAS into an integrated streamer, and output to a separate DAC such as the Chord Hugo? If so, does anybody have experience of sound/musicality compared to DS?

The reason I want to know this is that Linn are moving to Exakt technology, which is very expensive, and it locks the customer into BOTH Exakt and DS at the same time. So before I think about Exakt, I want to know if DS is the best answer for digital.

Thanks.

[anthony]

What are my options to replace a Linn DS? I don't really understand what a DS does, and whether it could be replicated by a combination of software and an external DAC.

I have an LSNAS. Is there a music player software program which would turn the LSNAS into an integrated streamer, and output to a separate DAC such as the Chord Hugo? If so, does anybody have experience of sound/musicality compared to DS?

The reason I want to know this is that Linn are moving to Exakt technology, which is very expensive, and it locks the customer into BOTH Exakt and DS at the same time. So before I think about Exakt, I want to know if DS is the best answer for digital.

Thanks.

Both Klimax and Akurate DSM have Exakt and analogue output, so you are not tied in to Exakt if you do not wish to be.

[David Neel]

True - but it seems that the EDSM and DSM/1 products now use improved digital circuitry compared to the standalone DS/1 products. Will future DS improvements likewise be focused on the Exakt products?

To me, spending on a DSM/1 with both outputs doesn't make sense unless you will definitely go Exakt in the future, but can't afford it all in one go.

[Nature]

Will future DS improvements likewise be focused on the Exakt products?

Most likely.

To me, spending on a DSM/1 with both outputs doesn't make sense unless you will definitely go Exakt in the future, but can't afford it all in one go.

Linn DSM/1 with both Exakt output and analog output will always be valued higher on the second hand market and probably easier to sell.

Linn DS introduced in july 2007. It's more than seven years ago now. Very good value, I would say.

[David Neel]

Anthony - I should have said, it's not so much being locked into exakt, I know I can keep DS separate if I want to, it's more being locked into DS if I go exakt. As Nature says, it's been 7 years, and my ADS/1 has been great value as a secondhand purchase.

I just feel that going to Exakt locks me into a lot of expense, and I want to see if there are alternatives. Such as a pc-based streamer and different (Lejonklou?) pre-amp.

Does anybody have experience of jplay?

[anthony]

Anthony - I should have said, it's not so much being locked into exakt, I know I can keep DS separate if I want to, it's more being locked into DS if I go exakt. As Nature says, it's been 7 years, and my ADS/1 has been great value as a secondhand purchase.

I just feel that going to Exakt locks me into a lot of expense, and I want to see if there are alternatives. Such as a pc-based streamer and different (Lejonklou?) pre-amp.

Does anybody have experience of jplay?

Oh I understand, the akurate Exakt dsm only attracted a small premium over the old type, so I would not be concerned about that aspect. I actually turned off the pre in my Klimax DSM and fed it into sagatun Mono's, which did in fact sound even better!
I do not believe many PC based streamers would be as good as a Ds, although there have been good reports on chord Hugo.

[tokenbrit]

Anthony - I should have said, it's not so much being locked into exakt, I know I can keep DS separate if I want to, it's more being locked into DS if I go exakt. As Nature says, it's been 7 years, and my ADS/1 has been great value as a secondhand purchase.

I just feel that going to Exakt locks me into a lot of expense, and I want to see if there are alternatives. Such as a pc-based streamer and different (Lejonklou?) pre-amp.

Does anybody have experience of jplay?

Oh I understand, the akurate Exakt dsm only attracted a small premium over the old type, so I would not be concerned about that aspect. I actually turned off the pre in my Klimax DSM and fed it into sagatun Mono's, which did in fact sound even better!
I do not believe many PC based streamers would be as good as a Ds, although there have been good reports on chord Hugo.

If you go Exakt, you are not locked into using the DS - you can use other inputs - but there are no Exakt pre-amps without DS included, are there? I'm not aware of any Kontrol Exakts; only DSMs.

If you go Exakt (as in using the Exakt Link) you are locked out of Sagatun, which is a shame since Sagatun Monos are better than the Klimax DSM internal pre-amp from what Anthony said, and better than Klimax Kontrol from my own experience.

If you go Exakt, you are locked out of Tundra unless you go Exaktbox.

If you go Exakt, you are locked into using speakers supported by Linn.

FWIW, as far as DACs go, there were good things written about the Naim DAC.

[DelNaja]

Waiting for Lejonklou DS. That's the only alternative, as I see it.

[lejonklou]

Waiting for Lejonklou DS. That's the only alternative, as I see it.

Thank you for that vote of confidence, DelNaja!

I have some ideas on how we could break the next performance barrier in digital sources. And I hope this can become my next major project. But I'm lacking some areas of competence, mainly digital hardware design.

If anyone has competence in that area and a burning passion for making something extraordinary, give me a call!

[David Neel]

I had been hoping that somebody would have experience with a pc-based solution such as jplay, but no response on that one...

Today I have re-installed Windows 7 on my LSNAS, to try to cure dropouts. After 3 hours it now tells me that my copy of Windows is invalid (it's not!) and that I'll have to buy a new copy to be legit... things like this do NOT encourage me to go down the pc/dac route!

Maybe I should wait to see what future Lejonklou projects can do.... I won't be going Exakt in the short term.

[jakez]

Waiting for Lejonklou DS. That's the only alternative, as I see it.

I was thinking the same thing!

I have listened to an Akurate DS/1 and Akurate DSM and wasn't particularly impressed with either. I was comparing to the DAC in the Akurate Kontrol/0 which I still prefer.

Exakt sounds like a cool technology, but I'm not willing to push into that cost range. I also don't have a room that's easily measurable, so I'm not sure how room-correction will help.

Given our the Tundras and Sagatuns sounds, a can imagine a digital Lejonkou source be a wonder.

[magnuska]

I had been hoping that somebody would have experience with a pc-based solution such as jplay, but no response on that one...

Today I have re-installed Windows 7 on my LSNAS, to try to cure dropouts. After 3 hours it now tells me that my copy of Windows is invalid (it's not!) and that I'll have to buy a new copy to be legit... things like this do NOT encourage me to go down the pc/dac route!

Maybe I should wait to see what future Lejonklou projects can do.... I won't be going Exakt in the short term.

Hi David,

I am using a pc based source. The computer is a fanless NUC with a m-sata SSD inbuilt. Its enough to store more than 1000 cds. Its then connected to Teddy pardo USB to spdif converter and then to a Teddy pardo DAC. The player is J-river, files in flac ripped using EAC.
I haven`t compared this head to head with DS, but it sounds very good. It can be controlled with my android phone or a wireless keyboard. Its also connected with HDMI to the big telly meaning I can use the system for other purpose, like internet TV, or music

Magnus

[DelNaja]

Thank you for that vote of confidence, DelNaja!

I have some ideas on how we could break the next performance barrier in digital sources. And I hope this can become my next major project. But I'm lacking some areas of competence, mainly digital hardware design.

If anyone has competence in that area and a burning passion for making something extraordinary, give me a call!

My pleasure, Fredrik. I sure hope you get the DS project started. With a DS unit your portfolio would be nearly complete (only speakers left then, but then again, there's always new things to consider, new innovations behind the corner) :-) Good luck!

[dubselect]

What are my options to replace a Linn DS? I don't really understand what a DS does, and whether it could be replicated by a combination of software and an external DAC.

I have an LSNAS. Is there a music player software program which would turn the LSNAS into an integrated streamer, and output to a separate DAC such as the Chord Hugo? If so, does anybody have experience of sound/musicality compared to DS?

The reason I want to know this is that Linn are moving to Exakt technology, which is very expensive, and it locks the customer into BOTH Exakt and DS at the same time. So before I think about Exakt, I want to know if DS is the best answer for digital.

Thanks.

There are several options.
1) some other high-quality stream player (Audio Research Reference DAC, Burmester 111 Musiccenter, MSB Analog DAC + Renderer input etc.) - majority of them equipped with internal preamps and this is a real deal in my experience;
2) any Aurender digital transport (there are three different models) + any DAC (the best way will be to get a DAC with internal preamp).

Don't look at solutions based on PC/Mac if you want to achieve high-quality (musical) sound in your system. But this is just my opinion based on my own experience.

As to Linn, their new DSMs (the ones with analogue and Exakt outputs) sound better in analogue mode than older versions. So Linn don't forget about those audiophiles who don't want to go for Exakt route.

[David Neel]

Hi David,

I am using a pc based source. The computer is a fanless NUC with a m-sata SSD inbuilt. Its enough to store more than 1000 cds. Its then connected to Teddy pardo USB to spdif converter and then to a Teddy pardo DAC. The player is J-river, files in flac ripped using EAC.
I haven`t compared this head to head with DS, but it sounds very good. It can be controlled with my android phone or a wireless keyboard. Its also connected with HDMI to the big telly meaning I can use the system for other purpose, like internet TV, or music

Magnus

Thanks - if I've understood, J-River does all the playing from flac files, and also acts as the music server software. It would be good to know how this compares to a DS, so if you ever do a comparison, I'd be interested in your findings.

I've bought additional SSDs for my LSNAS, so I may use one to trial a system like this - but it won't be for a while.

[David Neel]

There are several options.
1) some other high-quality stream player (Audio Research Reference DAC, Burmester 111 Musiccenter, MSB Analog DAC + Renderer input etc.) - majority of them equipped with internal preamps and this is a real deal in my experience;
2) any Aurender digital transport (there are three different models) + any DAC (the best way will be to get a DAC with internal preamp).

Don't look at solutions based on PC/Mac if you want to achieve high-quality (musical) sound in your system. But this is just my opinion based on my own experience.

As to Linn, their new DSMs (the ones with analogue and Exakt outputs) sound better in analogue mode than older versions. So Linn don't forget about those audiophiles who don't want to go for Exakt route.

Thanks. I was trying to keep costs modest, hence looking to a PC based solution (possibly built into my LSNAS). A quick google suggests that your recommendations are rather more expensive than my current system (Linn ADS/1 and LSNAS) - but I will research them more fully.

Interesting that you say the new DSMs sound better in analogue than the old ones. I chose AK/1 and ADS/1 in preference to ADSM/0, as there was a big musical gap between them. Linn says the circuitry in DSM/1 remains the same, but my dealer disagrees and says they have made some changes for the better.

[dubselect]

Thanks. I was trying to keep costs modest, hence looking to a PC based solution (possibly built into my LSNAS). A quick google suggests that your recommendations are rather more expensive than my current system (Linn ADS/1 and LSNAS) - but I will research them more fully.

Interesting that you say the new DSMs sound better in analogue than the old ones. I chose AK/1 and ADS/1 in preference to ADSM/0, as there was a big musical gap between them. Linn says the circuitry in DSM/1 remains the same, but my dealer disagrees and says they have made some changes for the better.

Well, all of these solutions have internal analogue preamp unlike ADS/1.
And for example MSB Analog DAC with Renderer input (build-in streamer), upgraded power supply and build-in preamp will cost ~$12.000 according to their official site while the price for ADS/1+AK/1 is £8700 (~$13.500).
And MSB is very close to Klimax level. So Analog DAC is a bargain in comparison with ADS/1+AK/1.

Yes. My dealer also told me that new ADSM/1 and KDSM/1 sound even better than separates!
There are a lot of impressions on Linn Forums about comparison between KDS/1+KK/1 and KDSM/1. Majority of users wrote that DSM/1 sounds much better than separates.
So there should be the same situation with Akurate range.

[lejonklou]

Majority of users wrote that DSM/1 sounds much better than separates.
So there should be the same situation with Akurate range.

Is the majority correct?

Many enthusiasts - probably a majority - seemed to think that the old KDSM was very close or perhaps even better than KDS+KK. In my opinion they were miles apart musically. But there has been an interesting shift in focus these last years, from musical flow and enjoyment to impressive clarity and dynamics. Tunedemmers who used to agree suddenly find they have very different opinions about the new stuff.

What I'd like to know is how the fixed analogue output of KDSM/1 compares to KDS/1, preferably using Sagatun Mono preamps. Some claim the KDSM/1 to be a bit better, but I'd like confirmation from those whose focus is 100% on musicality.

[rootola]

A Linn dealer confirmed to me from different two people at Linn:

...that the apart from the exakt circuitry, KDSM and KDSM/1 have identical hardware and if running side by side with the same software will perform the same.

I tried a KDSM v. KDS/1 + KK/1 and preferred the separates.

During the initial KDS/1 Renew offer period, when I spoke to a (different) Linn dealer while trying to get hold of a KDSM/1 for a dem, the response was if listening in analogue mode to stick with the KDS/1 and KK/1.

[hcl]

A Linn dealer confirmed to me from different two people at Linn:

...that the apart from the exakt circuitry, KDSM and KDSM/1 have identical hardware and if running side by side with the same software will perform the same.

I tried a KDSM v. KDS/1 + KK/1 and preferred the separates.

During the initial KDS/1 Renew offer period, when I spoke to a (different) Linn dealer while trying to get hold of a KDSM/1 for a dem, the response was if listening in analogue mode to stick with the KDS/1 and KK/1.

... as if the Exakt circuitry would not have any impact on the performance of the unit. I have made the switch from KDS/1 to KDSM/1 and the latter is slightly better, bit I still use it with a KK/1/D. When it will be fully run in I will compare it also without the KK in the chain.

For the record; My opinion also is that both the Exakt systems (Akubarik and Aqudorik) with EKDSM is a massive improvement over the old stuff.

[lejonklou]

For the record; My opinion also is that both the Exakt systems (Akubarik and Aqudorik) with EKDSM is a massive improvement over the old stuff.

That's good to know, because for me it's like the introduction of Compact Disc all over again. Impressive clarity and dynamics, but no trace of subtlety or effortless flow. All those analytical details that arrive one by one and never gel to a meaningful whole. Bob Marley is all polished and cheerful, like he's never had a bad smoke in his life. The late Chet Baker is an old man with lots of wrinkles who sings standards very slowly. Steely Dan are stiff and odd, I sense no humour in their play.

I am not saying you're wrong but we obviously focus on different things and are sensitive to different types of weaknesses in the presentation.

[hcl]

For the record; My opinion also is that both the Exakt systems (Akubarik and Aqudorik) with EKDSM is a massive improvement over the old stuff.

That's good to know, because for me it's like the introduction of Compact Disc all over again. Impressive clarity and dynamics, but no trace of subtlety or effortless flow. All those analytical details that arrive one by one and never gel to a meaningful whole. Bob Marley is all polished and cheerful, like he's never had a bad smoke in his life. The late Chet Baker is an old man with lots of wrinkles who sings standards very slowly. Steely Dan are stiff and odd, I sense no humour in their play.

I am not saying you're wrong but we obviously focus on different things and are sensitive to different types of weaknesses in the presentation.

Obviously we have not heard the same systems. My initial impression was similar to yours. After having heard the Aqudorik at Tonlaget and having tried the Akubarik at home I am of a different opinion. One thing is that installation is very critical. Slightly off and the details are there, but not forming the "perfect" whole as You say. Getting it right and the musical flow is way beyond the old stuff.

In my opinion.

[lejonklou]

Installation is certainly very important. But it could also be that we focus on different things.

A majority of the people I regularly speak with have opinions similar to mine. Most of them have listened to different Exakt systems, some of which have been repeatedly tweaked by installers I have great confidence in.

Then some guys have been super impressed by the four systems I have heard, not finding anything to criticise. They never heard Steely Dan so precisely reproduced before. That I find the same presentation completely uninvolving is really interesting, as it indicates we listen in different ways - while in the past we usually agreed on better/worse. It's as if advocates of the Tune Method have split into a Clarity/Separation and an Emotional/Meaning fraction (this idea is not mine, it was expressed by a retailer).

Anyone else who has compared fixed analogue out on KDSM/1 with KDS/1?

[hcl]

Installation is certainly very important. But it could also be that we focus on different things.

A majority of the people I regularly speak with have opinions similar to mine. Most of them have listened to different Exakt systems, some of which have been repeatedly tweaked by installers I have great confidence in.

Then some guys have been super impressed by the four systems I have heard, not finding anything to criticise. They never heard Steely Dan so precisely reproduced before. That I find the same presentation completely uninvolving is really interesting, as it indicates we listen in different ways - while in the past we usually agreed on better/worse. It's as if advocates of the Tune Method have split into a Clarity/Separation and an Emotional/Meaning fraction (this idea is not mine, it was expressed by a retailer).

Who ever expresses an opinion does not rectify using it irrespective of how it fits your seat.

I get it that you want to put me in the analytical ringside, but I have to say that I do not feel that is the right label on me. A similar label on the ones who does not appreciate Exakt (when well set-up) prefer to have a certain degree of distortion instead of what is actually on the record.

I do not think any of the descriptions are very accurate so I would prefer not to have such a label put on me.

Un involving would be the least fitting description of the Exakt system I had at home.

[lejonklou]

Sorry that I seem to have offended you, hcl, but I have not put any label on you. In fact I haven't commented on your opinion at all. I have only shared my own impressions and said that some agree (most of which don't share their views on forums) while others are thrilled and hear no problems. Each to their own.

The reason why I think you and I probably have a different focus is partly based on the fact that I'm very happy with my Tundra amplifier, while you think it's bad (several times mentioned on forums and during my demonstrations). I am perfectly fine with that. You have, however, also repeatedly suggested that those of us who think Tundra is a musical amp probably prefer some distortion added to our music, in order to enjoy it. I dislike this attitude, because it feels close to belittling those who don't hear exactly what you hear and it's also shows a poor understanding of how the Tune Method works. All our experience points toward it being impossible to improve performance by adding distortion to the reproduction of a recording.

It's also irrelevant to discuss what's "actually on the record" when the purpose of our hobby is to enjoy the music and have fun. As some clever guy once said: If it sounds better, it is better. Or as Linnofil says: When it's fun, it's good.