Keilidh Speaker Position

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2008-02-29 14:02

What with all of these threads about speaker position, I'm feeling somewhat inspired to spend a few hours this weekend trying to use tunedem to refine the position of my speakers.

I have Keilidhs, aktiv, with 038/2 tweeters, in a room about 4.5m by 6m. The speakers are on the shorter wall. Currently, they are about 2m apart, and 20cm from the wall, with a couple of degrees toe-in. However, they were not positioned using tunedem, just placed there because that was a convenient place, looked "normal" and sounded okay. The room has a hard floor, with a rug in the middle, bookcases covering about 1/3 of the wallspace, two armchairs and a sofa.

Any suggestions for where to start, where I might end up etc.?

Also, the speakers have Kustone bases, with spikes. These spikes currently rest on coins to prevent damage to the floor. Is this a good/bad idea, and how would people suggest moving the speakers around during the tunedem activity?

Many thanks.

Moomintroll · Post by **Moomintroll** » 2008-02-29 14:44

It will be interesting to hear what advice is forthcoming from others, but nothing about your current positioning sounds wrong to me. If you do go ahead and experiment this weekend though, I would suggest the following approach:

Set xovers to flat
Check that allen bolts holding the drive units are tight (NOT the screws in the centre of the tweeter) - you will have to prise out the rubber rings to reach the bass/mid driver bolts.
Check that the bolts holding the ku-stone stands are tight.
Start with the speakers in their current position, but no toe-in. Take them back to the wall (or out into the room) and listen.
Make a big move - ie, right back or forward 50-60 cm. It the tune easier to follow?
Move the speakers to the mid point between your last two positions.
Better or worse?
Repeat this process until you have homed in on the optimum distance from the wall.
Now try the same thing with their distance apart.
Now try toe-in. Remember to make large changes at first.

Finally move on to x-over adjustments in the same way, change one thing at a time and make big initial changes.

Given you have a floor to protect, I would try these moves with the spikes out, until you are making small changes. Having them on coins is sensible. Linn make Skeets for this very purpose if you fancy spending another £50. I'm currently using Quadraspire's version of the Skeet on top of carpet (cries of "heresy"?) which is actually just as stable once they've settled and sounds extremely tuneful.

Last bit of advice - remember where you started, just in case you find no improvement!

I take no responsibility for any damage caused by following this approach. If in doubt. DON'T.

Have fun,

'Troll

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2008-02-29 14:50

Thanks Moomintroll. That sounds like a great approach to try and follow, and I hadn't even thought about resetting the crossovers before I start!

One question. You say:

Given you have a floor to protect, I would try these moves with the spikes out, until you are making small changes

Would people expect that the 25mm height difference, and change from flat supports to point supports, which result from the spikes being removed/replaced, will have any significant change to the best position overall? i.e. Is it valid to do the rest of the tune-dem setup without spikes, and only put them on once I'm happy that I'm within say 2cm of the final positions?

Thanks again.

Moomintroll · Post by **Moomintroll** » 2008-02-29 15:15

Indeed it will make a difference, but I wouldn't expect it to be as big as moving the speaker 30 cms initially. Obviously if you're happy to fit the spikes after every move, then go for it.

'Troll

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2008-02-29 19:27

I don't have any real recommendations on where to place Keliedhs as I have never done them. I agree with the methodology that Moomintroll laid out but have a couple of recommendations. On the driver bolts it is a good idea to tighten them but don't go overboard with it. Fredrik and I both use a torque screwdriver for tightening speaker drivers (as we do for turntable setup) and my experience has been that most drivers want a decent amount of torque but not a lot of it. If tightening by hand I would do up the bolts until they are snug and then give them another quarter turn.

I would recommend using the Linn Skeets which run $90US for a set of 8. I feel they work better than using coins and even a bit better than the Quadraspire versions. (Quadraspire makes a reference foot that is more like a Skeet but with some internal damping but it is a fair bit more expensive than the Skeet!) I have Skeets under my speakers and three equipment stands (one Quadraspire) and find they work quite well. They allow me to move my 143 lb. speakers on my wood floor without marking it up and allow you to get everything quite stable. I have heard of others using them on carpets with good results too but I haven't tried it yet. However, I will soon when I go to fine tune a customers Artikulat 350As in a week or two.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-02-29 20:02

Go for it rowlandhills! It will be interesting to hear how you get on. This link contains my first attempts with very useful advice from other members, so it may be worth a quick look even though I was using Ninka's:
http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2008-03-01 23:36

Well, that was quite an interesting hour or so. First time that I've really tried the "formal" tune dem process. It seemed to work well thinking of it like visiting the optician, where they show you two lenses and just ask "which one looks clearer?". Tune dem (if I've understood it right!) is the audio equivalent. Listen to two options (in my case speaker positions) and pick which one is easier to follow the tune on.

Interestingly, I found that my initial choice of music (Rosetta Stone from Raising Sand, by Robert Plant & Alison Krauss) led to some situations where I couldn't tell much difference. I think switched to a less familar, but more complex piece of music (Rachmaninov Piano Concerto No. 3) and found that whilst the main piano melody was similarly easy to follow in both situations, one made the background melodies/harmonies much easier to follow, letting me continue to refine the positions.

Anyway, getting back to the details of what I found out :)

Initial position (pre-tune-dem) was both speakers 245mm from the back wall, 1700mm apart, and only 10mm of toe in (distance by which one corner of the kustone stand is further back than the other).

After tune dem, speakers were 170mm from the back wall, 1670mm apart, and (the most interesting bit!) 80mm of toe-in! The toe-in essentially resulted in both speakers pointing directly at my listening chair. I'm not sure whether that position will be best from all positions, but it's definately best when sat in that chair :)

Ran out of time this evening and had to come in for supper, so tomorrow, I'll put the spikes back on, recheck the final position, and then tweak the treble level on the aktiv card.

Would be interested to know anyones thoughts on my findings!

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-03-02 01:25

rowlandhills wrote:It seemed to work well thinking of it like visiting the optician, where they show you two lenses and just ask "which one looks clearer?". Tune dem (if I've understood it right!) is the audio equivalent.

I think that's a nice simile, sometimes it does feel like that. Provided you are focusing on the music; the tune and the flow - and not on getting a "clear sound", which can be very deceiving.

I have done many installations over the last 15 years and have gradually come to dislike any and all standardised recommendations about how speakers should be placed. I mean; I can understand the need for a rough recommendation, just to make certain you're on the right track and not way off. And indeed it is possible to say that "in 95% of all cases, speaker X will end up at between Y and Z cm from the back wall". But on the other hand, there are those 5% when it doesn't...!

In the past, I used to use these rough guidelines myself. If I was in a hurry they were particularly useful in helping me in find a good spot quite fast. But there were also those 5% cases when the music just didn't flow as expected...

These days I always adjust until I'm done - and therefore I am in the same situation as most people who are adjusting their own systems: Time is not an issue, striving for perfection is what it's all about. And with only that end result in focus, I find that the only way to get it right in each and every case is to completely disregard of any common measurements and rely on the method. Even just briefly thinking about "where they usually end up" can make me accidentally miss the optimal position and instead end up in a suboptimal one in the ordinary range.

I am not writing this to critisise anyone, merely to point out that it's all about the method. If you are confident with the Tune Method, you will find the optimal speaker positions more easily by not having any preconceived notion of where they "should" end up!

EDIT: changed "Y cm", which was not what I meant at all, to "between Y and Z cm"

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2008-03-03 00:24

I thoroughly agree with Fredrik on this. There are always those situations where the speakers really sing in a different position than you expect. The only way to know is to try.

It is also important to note that speakers, especially Linn speakers, can change over time. As an example my store bought an early pair of Akurate 242s for demo. Our rep came up and set them up about 18" from the back wall. We always felt they were a bit anemic but we positioned them where he indicated as the manual also stated that they should be a minimum of 9" from the back wall. A few months later I went to a training class at LInn USA and found they had their Akurate 242s about 3" to 4" from the back wall. We had a new rep by then and I asked him and another Linn person about their placement and the minimum 9" recommended in the manual. Both said the manual was wrong and they needed to be much closer than that. When I got back to the store I did a setup using tune dem and they ended up 4.25" from the back wall with .5" of toe in. They sounded much better there although they were still a little lacking on the low end.

After about a year we sold the demos and ordered a new demo pair. We put them in the same position as the original pair and found they had a much lower and more powerfull bass! Linn didn't mention any changes but this was a whole different speaker. So I did a tune dem setup on this pair and they ended up 12" from the back wall with no toe in at all. And they were very sensitive to placement. Once placed I checked their level and found they were a bit off. Once I had the two speakers level the magic was gone and I had to reposition both, one about .25" and one about .12" to get the most tuneful sound back.

Recently Linn informed us that they had made a change to the Akurate 242s with a new bass driver, new port and changes to the crossover. These happened after we purchased this pair. So now we need to sell them and get a newer demo pair which will, I'm sure, end up in a different place yet. So yet another reason you need to do a full setup of any speakers to get the best out of them.

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2008-03-12 16:59

Just a quick update, to say that yesterday I finished off the tunedem setup of my Keilidh's. They are now back on spikes, levelled and tightened up.

Final positions are pretty much as at the end of the non-spiked setup, with perhaps 5-10mm adjustment (I've not remeasured).

Thanks for all of the help. My system's now sounding better than ever before :D

Moomintroll · Post by **Moomintroll** » 2008-03-12 17:45

A Pleasure - glad you enjoyed the experience and you've gained in the process.

'Troll

TOFFEEMAN1878 · Post by **TOFFEEMAN1878** » 2008-03-25 11:19

This is the closest to the back wall I am able to get my speakers because of the alcoves either side of the fireplace any suggestions?obviously it is not the ideal position ........Jimmy
p.s forgot to include a table on the left wall.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-03-25 23:25

Welcome here, Jimmy!

Now that is a serious challenge for speaker positioning...

I'm afraid I can't say anything smart without being there, listening and moving the speakers around. I don't think there is any standard formula that will work.

TOFFEEMAN1878 · Post by **TOFFEEMAN1878** » 2008-03-26 12:18

I was thinking of putting them on the hearth ,taking the fireplace oput & replacing it with a stove !!!