Espek Position

Ceilidh · Post by **Ceilidh** » 2008-02-28 05:54

Hi Folks!

Would any of you have experience in setting up Espeks? If so, could you please let me know how far from the back wall they tend to end up, and how much toe-in you've used? Thank you very much! :D

(As for background: after I experimented with my parents' Ninkas and found a good place for them (5" from the back wall, with minimal 4-degrees of toe-in), my folks found some used Espeks to take their place. So the Espeks are now sitting where the Ninkas used to be -- and the bass is not quite right (kind of "boomy"), and there are some general Tune Dem concerns (melodies just aren't as easy to follow as they should be (or as they were with the Ninkas)). Tomorrow I'll start experimenting to find where the Espeks should perhaps be placed, but it'd be reassuring to know what other folks have found to be good positions. Thank you in advance, and I'll let you all know how it works out. Cheers!)

- C

chris_m_brown · Post by **chris_m_brown** » 2008-02-28 09:11

Well, sort of... My Espeks were set up by an expert and they ended up 20 cm from the back wall with a 5 degree toe in.

I did originally find them a little boomy on recordings for example with a very prominent bass guitar - The Stevie Ray Vaughan Texas Flood album would be a good example. The strengths of Espeks I think lies in the mid range.

Having gone through a series of upgrades, I have found that they respond extremely well to improvements further up the chain. I found a spectacular improvement in tune dem going from LK100's to a C6100. Each succesive improvement in source and amplification has improved the tunefulness of the bass. I have to admit that there were certain 'bassy' recordings that I avoided in my original setup but having gone from Karik/Kairn/3xLK100 to AkurateCD/Majik Kontrol/C6100 this is absolutely no longer the case.

I guess I'm saying that 'boomy' is something of an Espek characteristic wherever you place them but they do respond extremely well to better inputs.

sommerfee · Post by **sommerfee** » 2008-02-28 09:50

I have had the Espeks for some years, so maybe these observations of mine are of interest:

First of all, I agree with Chris. The Espeks benefits better electronics more than the Ninka. Furthermore they can get little "boomy" in very small rooms, since AFAIK they use a psychoacoustic trick: Because of the transmission line like concept, the bass roll-off very quickly. To compensate for that, the bass is a little bit louder just before the roll-off. If your room resonances conflict with this louder frequencies, the Espek can be "boomy" with some music. This can be compensated by better electronics to some degree, but (of course) not eliminated.

Additionally the Espek don't like other back terminals than the tri-wiring ones. Well, when you use the bi-wiring instead of the tri-wiring terminal with the Ninka, you can here a difference as well, but the difference is much more relevant on the Espeks. So I strongly recommend using the K600.

Same with the Ku-stone foot: Recommended for Ninka, really much much more for Espek, I tend to replace "recommended" with "needed" here.

Regarding the speaker position: I'm sorry, don't remember that.

ledcam · Post by **ledcam** » 2008-02-28 10:47

Our aktiv AV5140's which are on Ku-stone bases ( Espek tweeters so does that count?? :lol: ) are about 12 inches off the back wall. Unfortunately we have a plasma TV and a subwoofer sitting between them as our system is a combined music and home cinema set up.

There is no toe in on the speakers at. The inside edge of each base is straight on as you look at the speakers.

Our dealer suggested increasing the distance between the speakers - which we did - we shifted them from roughly 5 and 1/2 feet apart to just under 8 feet apart. The difference was stunning. I'm not using that word lightly. Had we paid for an upgrade costing a couple of thousand pounds to get this sort of improvement we would have been delighted and thought it money well spent - we couldn't believe how much more the sound simply "snapped" into place. It was the sort of difference that had us putting on disc after disc just to enjoy the music - and a great big grin on our faces.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-02-28 19:02

sommerfee wrote:Because of the transmission line like concept, the bass roll-off very quickly. To compensate for that, the bass is a little bit louder just before the roll-off.

This is more than I knew, Axel. Transmission line? I haven't looked inside the bass enclosures of the Espeks, but I thought they were an ordinary bass reflex construction (with some damping of the ports as Linn often uses).

In any case, I agree that 5140 and Espeks can sometimes be a bit boomy. I think that both certain rooms and the input signal determines how much of a problem this becomes. In some rooms, Espeks need extremely careful positioning, in order to "tame" their bass response. A better source can also completely transform the sound; In one system where I installed a Keel into the LP12, every trace of boominess in the Espeks disappeared.

Ceilidh · Post by **Ceilidh** » 2008-02-28 21:51

Thank you everyone!

The speaker positioning will start as soon as things get quiet over here (currently a lot of banging, talking, pots and pans clattering, etc., etc.); hopefully that'll be sometime tonight or tomorrow....

One quick question, however, now that I've read everyone's (very helpful!) comments: have we made a mistake replacing the Ninkas with Espeks? Or put another way: do you all like your Espeks, despite the boomy bass problems? I do hope so! :D

Thanks again, and I'll let you all know how it works out. Cheers(!),

-C

sommerfee · Post by **sommerfee** » 2008-02-28 22:25

lejonklou wrote: This is more than I knew, Axel. Transmission line? I haven't looked inside the bass enclosures of the Espeks, but I thought they were an ordinary bass reflex construction (with some damping of the ports as Linn often uses).

AFAIK the Espek neither have an ordinary bass reflex construction nor a transmission line construction, but something that behave similar as a transmission line concept regarding the bass roll off. (That is what I tried to tell with my broken English.) At least this is what I was told (or have read?) someday, and of course, this can be completely rubbish. :lol:

And Ceilidh, yes, I loved my Espek and it was hard to tell them goodbye.

Axel

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-02-29 00:21

Ceilidh wrote: have we made a mistake replacing the Ninkas with Espeks?

Certainly NOT!

Visoflex · Post by **Visoflex** » 2008-02-29 08:02

Mine are 6 feet apart. 12 inches off the back wall. Toed in such as to make the inner sides of the speaker at right angles to the back wall - no more, and are on the Ku-stone bases.

I previously had them further apart, and toed in a lot more, but by tune demming, this arrangement is much better.

I also have a flat panel television between them.

chris_m_brown · Post by **chris_m_brown** » 2008-02-29 08:29

I like my Espeks alot. They look great, sound great and because of the way they react positively to careful placement and upgrades to electronics are extremely rewarding to own. You can go a long way with a pair of Espeks.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2008-02-29 19:08

I definitely agree with the consensus that the Espek is quite superior to the Ninkas. Well fed and properly placed I find it a quite enjoyable speaker. It is true that improper placement can cause a bit of boominess but, as noted, proper placement will get rid of most, if not all, of that. The better and the more full range a speaker is the more sensitive it is to both the quality of the equipment preceding it and to the precision of the positioning. Another reason why the hierarchy is important.

I did not post about placement as I had already made my recommendations to Celiedh in a private email on the subject but for the benefit of the rest of the forum I will repeat them here. I had mentioned that Espeks generally sound most tuneful a bit farther out from the back wall than Ninkas. I recommended that he try something in the 7" to 9" range with a little toe in - try with the inner side perpendicular to the back wall and work from there. I note that in general the respondents feel that somewhere between 8" (20cm) and 12" (30cm) and toed in a small amount as noted above seems best. This agrees with my experience with the Espeks almost always ending up between 9" and 12" from the back wall.

As has also been noted the polymer bases make a big improvement here and really should have been standard equipment on the Espeks.