Sound difference between Unidisk 1.1 and Klimax DS

Hugo · Post by **Hugo** » 2008-02-09 21:00

Hi all!

I just got my new Klimax DS and I am rather disappointed: There is no sound difference between my Unidisk 1.1 and the Klimax DS. The rest of the system is a Klimax Kontrol, a pair of Artikulat 350A and all connections are Linn Silver.

I have tried a lot, including
* verify the phase of all components
* verify the direction of all cables
* let the Klimax DS run in over 48 hours continously
* moving the spekers to optimize the room sound
* re-install the whole system
* install a different Twonky Server

There is no sound difference what so ever that could stand a blind test. From time to time I think that I can hear a slight difference - the DS has a slightly deeper room while at the same time the highs are not so harsh as the Uni. I have even tried to compare a CD rip with a 24bit flac from Linn Records - no "real" difference.

Any advice is gladly appreciated!

>>>>>>>>>> Addition ======== Solution <<<<<<<<<<<
After a lot of tests I found that none of my devices was faulty, it was the power cable of the Klimax Kontrol! I still don't know how and why, but my Kontrol had a non-Linn power cable and this degenerated the sound. With a Linn power cable the whole system behaves like it should: There id a clear improvement from Unidisk 1.1 to Klimax DS and a clear distinction between 16bit and 24bit playback!

Moomintroll · Post by **Moomintroll** » 2008-02-09 21:27

Hugo,

how dreadful for you. This system should astonish, not disappoint! What does your dealer think of the performance?

With the greatest of respect, your comments about the differences suggest that you are expecting a big hifi "wow" with the DS, rather than listening to how much more natural it is than the Unidisk. I've had my DS for a little over two weeks and haven't used the 1.1 or the LP12 in that time. Everything I've played has made me smile and, quite honestly, just makes me want to dance. Everything now flows! I'm repeatedly listening to CDs that got played once on the 1.1 and filed away.

I would suggest that you stop comparing the two and give yourself a chance to get used to what the DS is doing.

'Troll

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-02-09 21:29

Hugo, did you buy this from a local dealer? If so, take it back to them right away and compare it with their DS on demo. If they perform equally well, get the retailer to your house to search for the problem.

I just feel that if your Klimax DS doesn't easily outperform the 1.1, something is wrong! I have found it difficult to listen to the Unidisks after having played a Klimax DS. It feels like going from something natural and easy to something recorded and processed.

Just my experience. Please keep us updated!

Hugo · Post by **Hugo** » 2008-02-09 22:14

Thanks for your feedback.

Troll, I am not expecting any hifi "Wow" - I am just looking for ANY improvement! I have listened to the DS for a while and then switched to the Uni - that's when my disappointment starts. The listening experience I found so natural with the DS is the same with the Unidisk.

My dealer recommends to wait and let the system run in. "It will improve over time" Thats what I did. However, after some days of more or less continuous operations I would expect to have some burn in effects.

By the way:
(1) I am not a hifi-guy, i also judge by tune-dem. It was easy for me to identify the differences betwen ESS 223 and 221, 227.

(2) In order to avoid any issues from the cables burn in, I have used my old cables.

poppop · Post by **poppop** » 2008-02-09 22:36

Hugo

Having compared the Akurate cdp with the 1.1 and felt the Akurate was better. I then tried the Akurate DS against the Akurate cdp and found the DS to be better.
Ive never heard a Klimax DS because at the minute I cant afford one! However, given most of the comments on this forum Im sure its a further improvement.

The only thing I can suggest, as with Fredriks comment, is go back to your dealer? I did hear rumours - Im sure the dealers on this forum will know - that there have been instances of some Klimax DS's not performing as they should. Whether this is a quality issue or something else I just dont know.

In any case I hope you resolve the problem as on paper you have a wonderful system.

steve.

Hugo · Post by **Hugo** » 2008-02-09 23:58

Thanks for your fast and supportive suggestions!

My dealer has offered me to come over to his shop and compare my DS to his. I think this is fair and I will do that soon. My previous experiences with Linn support were also very good so I sume they will assist me here as well.

The reason for this post was basically to get any ideas from others who might have experienced similar issues - with other products...

I will keep you posted!

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2008-02-10 01:21

The dealer should be offering you your money back Hugo,not offering to compare your DS with his.Why is it some dealers cant listen to an item independently and say whether its working properly or not?They are deaf thats why.If your DS is faulty there is no way it should be anywhere near your system.Get your money back Hugo and get yourself a new dealer!That is very shabby;this is the reason why Linn have tried to sell directly to the public and would happily hang all the dealers.No wonder Ivor wanted it to be like a car dealership;you want a linn? Go to a Linn store the same way one would go to a Nissan dealer if you wanted a motor .Don't get me going :evil:
9 grand and he is telling you to let the system run in !!!!!!!!????????????

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-02-10 01:35

Now calm down...

It seems you have had some bad experiences, Lego, but some people have great dealers who help them get the most out of their system.

I think it sounds great that the dealer offered to compare the DS in question with his. I don't know of any quality issues with the DS machines, but there is a possibility that it's underperforming and that should be checked first of all IMHO.

Hugo · Post by **Hugo** » 2008-02-10 01:38

Lego,

I do not want to have my money back, I just want to listen to music the best way possible. And all my previous experiences show my that Linn is the comany which produces the best equipment for this endeavour.

This dealer tries to do his best but it is hard for him to identify the root cause because I live quite far away from his shop. So he can't come over easily. The installation was performed by one of his staff but he left before I've tried the comparison.

So once again, I do want to blaim anyone - just get the sound out of the box...

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-02-10 08:21

poppop wrote:Hugo
I did hear rumours - Im sure the dealers on this forum will know - that there have been instances of some Klimax DS's not performing as they should.

Last week two persons I trust compared a Klimax DS with CD12 at home during a few days and found both being on same performance level.
On tune dem AS WELL on the sound.
Huge surprice as these guys can tell the difference between cable direction and 1mm speaker positioning.
He is now going to bring his CD12 to the dealer and compare again...

I thing we have to realize that this new teknology is as NEW as it is = we havn't really understood how to get the max out of the DS.Obviously, something is wrong with the DS or the installation in these both cases.

For the record I heard three different Klimax DS and compared them with Akurate DS/CD at three different dealers and it's a KILLER product. No doubt it miles better than anything else I heard.
The first note is just SO much more right on a DS. Even on Akurate DS.
= This is going to be solved, trust me!

Hugo · Post by **Hugo** » 2008-02-10 09:23

Music Lover,

the description of the two guys sound familiar to me. Please keep me posted on the news from these two guys!

hcl · Post by **hcl** » 2008-02-10 15:56

If a Klimax DS is not clearly outperforming a Undisk 1.1, Akurate CD, Akurate DS or even a CD12, surely something is wrong! At its best it should be in the same league as a top LP12. I am shocked that the dealers representative, when installaing, did not notice that the system was not performing as it should.

Are you sure you have all network stuff together and that the rip:s are done with the right settings? I would expect the dealer to sort these problems out for you!

bbyte · Post by **bbyte** » 2008-02-10 18:00

The Klimax DS should easly outperform when using tune-dem method (but also in hifi terms) Unidisk 1.1 and Akurate CD, the Akurate DS sounds just amazing when compared to high-end player as Akurate CD. It sings like heaven when playing high-res downloads too.

The DS is very complex product and if the Klimax DS isn't a shock when compared to Uni, you should:
1) get it checked by a dealer, and if possible compare to other Klimax
2) check the network settings and other software
3) if two of above points have been checked, send it to linn service

I've heard the Klimax with Aktiv Artikulat and it was clearly better than "oh-my-favorite" CD12. It is very, very simmilar to LP12. It makes me thing about going for LP12 or buy the DS (Akurate or Majik?)

Hugo · Post by **Hugo** » 2008-02-10 23:37

hcl and bbyte,

the network should not be the issue:
I have a connection from the DS to the UPnP Server and all UPnP control devices (which are LinnGUI on WinXP, Rudeo Control on WinMobile 5.0 and Cideo A/V Controller on Mac OSX) - so I do not see an issue here, right?

the ripping software I have used are
EAC on WinXP (the vast majority of my files),
MAX on Mac OSX (some files) and
Linn Records downloads.

Especially because of the Linn Records downloads, I do not see an issue here, right?

Furthermore, I have set up two TwonkyServers, one on WinXP and one on a Maxtor Shared Storage 2. While the WinXP server was set up to transform all files to .wav, the MSS2 server does only send the .flac files natively. Again, here I do not find any potential cause for my issue, right?

Should anyone have an idea for a fault on my side, I am happy to know...

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2008-02-10 23:57

Sorry for flying off the handle Hugo et al.But I am absolutely flabbergasted Lejonklou that you think its great how the dealer is handling this,why does he have to compare it?When does this tune dem thing stop.
Are we not supposed to pay the dealers after they get things well and truly cooking at home?
I'm not calm yet Lejonklou but do you not think the DS should have been checked before it was sold to Hugo.Do you guys not recognize terrible service?
I admire your patience Hugo tho' I feel you have to let these people be aware of their errors or they'll just keep repeating this shabbiness elsewhere;if you cant do it for yourself do it for Linn.
Yes Lejonklou I have had experiences with dealers nothing bad tho'.I upgraded my Klyde to an Arkiv 2 the dealer brought it round set it up and listened,he said it sounded great I said I it sounded worse than the klyde so I asked for my money back,and got it elsewhere,this time the arm at the correct hight .
I just don't feel its this forums job to sort out dealer cock ups.

I'm calm now Mr Administrator

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2008-02-11 00:01

I mean Height :oops:

Hugo · Post by **Hugo** » 2008-02-11 00:42

Calm down, folks!

Most likely I have found the issue - the Klimax Kontrol!

I have just changed the Kontrol to a Kinos ... et voila ... there is a quite significant improvent from Unidisk to DS! And now we also have an improvement from 16 to 24 bit...

So the DS just reveiled the defect of the Kontrol - strange but true. I cannot say since when the Kontrol was defect because I didn't realize it until now.

I guess I have to sent my Kontrol to service...

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-02-11 00:43

Lego wrote:I am absolutely flabbergasted Lejonklou that you think its great how the dealer is handling this,why does he have to compare it?

Flabbergasted; what a wonderful word. I had completely forgotten it existed. :)

I don't think anything of this particular dealer OR how this problem is being handled. I don't know enough facts to comment on that.

All I am saying is that I know dealers who do a great job. I agree with you, however, that customers should expect top quality products and excellent service - nothing less!

I am also saying that; from what I'm reading here, it sounds like something is wrong. I hope your dealer will resolve it and that we will soon be reading about how fantastic your system has become.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-02-11 06:15

Hugo wrote: So the DS just reveiled the defect of the Kontrol - strange but true. I cannot say since when the Kontrol was defect because I didn't realize it until now.

How was the DS connected to KK? And did you have the Unidisk connected at same time as DS?

zeedje · Post by **zeedje** » 2008-02-11 08:16

Hugo wrote:
So the DS just reveiled the defect of the Kontrol - strange but true. I cannot say since when the Kontrol was defect because I didn't realize it until now.

I guess I have to sent my Kontrol to service...

This is highly interesting stuff.

What was wrong with the Konrol? Is it the whole preamp that is faulty or is it just one of the inputs?

/Z

Hugo · Post by **Hugo** » 2008-02-11 12:19

Musik Lover,

the DS was connected to the KK using balanced and chinch interconnects as well as the 1.1. So I have tried various combinations:
DS balanced - 1.1 unbalanced
1.1 balanced - DS unbalanced
and both unbalanced
all with the same effect: no significant improvement.
By the way: I have always disconnected the power before plugging / unplugging a cable.

Zeedje,
currently I cannot say 100% for sure that the Kontrol is defect, I just have a strong indication in that direction. However, I have tested all 4 inputs of the KK and the effect is the same on all of them.

With the Kinos as a pre-amp I have a quite clear idea of what I should be hearing in terms of difference between DS and 1.1. That is - as all of you described - just impressive. The DS gives the music an "analogue feeling" that is unique and much different from the 1.1.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-02-11 15:51

Hugo wrote:Musik Lover,

the DS was connected to the KK using balanced and chinch interconnects as well as the 1.1. So I have tried various combinations:
DS balanced - 1.1 unbalanced
1.1 balanced - DS unbalanced
and both unbalanced
all with the same effect: no significant improvement.

So both units were connected to KK at same time?

KK vs Kinos - what pre offered the best sound quality when DS was source?

Hugo · Post by **Hugo** » 2008-02-11 16:14

ML,

yes both connected at the same time.

Right now the Kinos delivers the better sound quality - that's why I assume the KK is defect. Most important I can now hear sound differences between the various playbacks (16bit, 24bit, 96kHz) of the DS.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-02-11 19:57

If the Kinos is better, the KK must be faulty.

When comparing, I recommend that you never have both sources connected at the same time unless this is how you intend to have it in the future. Disconnect one and connect the other, using the same interconnects.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-02-11 20:36

Hugo wrote:yes both connected at the same time..

Please compare them using same power cord, same IC and same input in KK.
With the other unit disconnected from the KK and power outlet...

EDIT, Fredrik was faster....