I'm fast coming to the point where I won't bother with modern vinyl re-issues unless the cost of an original is much more. I'm yet to find one that will Tune Dem better than the original and some fall disappointingly short :(. It's been an expensive lesson, but it's hard to resist the temptation of hearing my favorite albums sounding clearer than ever, but I keep being let down by the results.
The worst have been the recent WB Rhino re-issues such as 'Blue' and 'Sweet Baby James'. Lovely Hi-Fi improvements, but they make the music sound slow and awkward, missing the flow and musical involvement of much older pressings. I've also tried Japanese Re-issues and a few others. The Classic Records versions Tune Dem a little better
with Led Zeppelin IV being close to my very worn down original pressing and better than a very poorly sounding and flimsy 80s pressing. Peter Gabriel 1 and their 200g Born to Run are also not bad. The latter very tempting when compared to my 80s pressing with it's loud vinyl roar and masses of tape hiss, but once Thunder Road gets going, the cheap old pressing is just more alive and better captures the spirit of the track.
Classical music is no different with my original EMI Elgar Cello Concerto / Barbirolli / Du Pre being more tuneful and always preferable to the re-issue despite the latter's near silent background.
Anyway, I can't understand this. I thought vinyl pressing had been improved in recent years - All this extra thick virgin vinyl. Does anyone know why? Perhaps the LP12 doesn't perform so well with these great big 200g vinyl slabs? Or maybe, back in the old days, the mastering engineers didn't worry about hi-fi and just listened to the music and made decisions that way. I don't know. Any thoughts anyone?
Vinyl Re-issues
Moderator: Staff
Vinyl Re-issues
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2008-01-26 10:48, edited 1 time in total.
Hi Charlie I think the new supa dupa pressings etc are sometimes taken from the original master where the 1st pressing album is from the mixed master,if you know what I mean,that's my guess anyway.I think the mixing plays a large part in the sound and the 'feel' of an album,so the new pressings can sometimes sound boring and flat if its taken from the untweeked master.Thats probably an oversimplification; help me out here guys :? :!:
Leo
Leo
I know that tune
That sounds feasible - I've heard before that master tapes sound a bit boring. I guess better Hi-Fi doesn't always equal better Tune Dem. That shouldn't come as a surprise to me now, but I keep going back for more punishment! I'll keep it to essential purchases from now on, such as Classic Records reissue of 'Axis - Bold as Love' in Mono - original copies cost a small fortune!
Hi Charlie I get most of my 2nd hand albums from ebay ;the advantage of spending a barrow load on a turntable is that cheap 'any old pressing' sound great so one can afford to become less anal about it(maybe we should email our fave artists and ask them to be a bit more tuneful on their next album) .
Some albums sound a bit sizzly at first but after a few plays they're fine, especially with your Akiva.I still think most of the budget should be spent on the software.
Cheers
Leo
Some albums sound a bit sizzly at first but after a few plays they're fine, especially with your Akiva.I still think most of the budget should be spent on the software.
Cheers
Leo
I know that tune
I think you're right - 2nd hand LPs are great for the bulk of purchases (Have you tried Netsounds by the way - it's where hundreds of record dealers can sell together online? http://www.netsoundsmusic.com )
My audiophile LPs purchases are still less than a dozen - it's just that for some of those much loved albums, I've been tempted into wanting to hear them better than ever. It's the audiophile in me I'm afraid - I couldn't help it!
My audiophile LPs purchases are still less than a dozen - it's just that for some of those much loved albums, I've been tempted into wanting to hear them better than ever. It's the audiophile in me I'm afraid - I couldn't help it!
I've a couple including the Karajan from his 9 symphonies, which is pretty exciting. I'll keep an eye out for this one though, especially in the local charity shops. I find them a good source of very cheap classical music, but not so good for anything else – unless you ONLY want to listen to Jim Reeves LPs and The Sound of Music! Maybe there's a copy of the Carlos Kleiber one on Netsounds for a few quid...
They usually pop up in ebay .I cant recommend it highly enough Charlie.The fact you have still to hear it ,is an enviable place to be .I still dont get the same feeling I got listening to it for the first time on my rega 3. 25 years ago. If you have a minute check out this obituary .
http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/0 ... eiber.html
http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/0 ... eiber.html
I know that tune
OK OK, you have persuaded me for sure. Speakers Corner produce brand new re-issues for £20, but I'll be looking for a cheap used copy on Ebay. They have one now for a fiver (supposed to be near mint - yeah right). No doubt from your sales pitch, I'll be bidding against half the forum! All the best, Charlie.
Gee, I almost hate to break into this two way conversation (although I, too will be looking for that Beethoven's 5th :) ).
I did want to let everyone know about something rather disturbing that I found out recently. It appears that the greed and dishonesty on the part of the record companies and some of those who master records is now robbing us of the chance to hear this music as we should. The story is that, after decades of neglect, the record companies have recently come to the conclusion that the original masters of all this good music from the 50s, 60s, 70s, etc. are worth a lot of money. On top of that there have been circumstances where a master tape was sent out to a mastering facility and a copy of the master (or even a blank tape) was returned! Because of this it has become the policy of at least some of the big media companies (and this definitely includes WB) to convert ALL original analog masters to high-rez digital and to ONLY send out the digital copies to the mastering labs.
I'm afraid that the new WB vinyl releases you mention fall into this category - they are made from a digital copy and not the original analog master! This info is from the horses mouth as one of my customers is a musician who has had records cut by one of the best record cutting people out there - he was the one who told my customer about this practice.
This considered, it should come as no surprise that the original records sound so much better. There are also other pressings where this is the case. About a year or two ago Japanese pressings of the entire Beatles catalog were released. Upon questioning one of our sources for records (we sell a handful of titles through the store) admitted that they were all digital remasters. So it is obviously caveat emptor when it comes to vinyl re-releases.
I did want to let everyone know about something rather disturbing that I found out recently. It appears that the greed and dishonesty on the part of the record companies and some of those who master records is now robbing us of the chance to hear this music as we should. The story is that, after decades of neglect, the record companies have recently come to the conclusion that the original masters of all this good music from the 50s, 60s, 70s, etc. are worth a lot of money. On top of that there have been circumstances where a master tape was sent out to a mastering facility and a copy of the master (or even a blank tape) was returned! Because of this it has become the policy of at least some of the big media companies (and this definitely includes WB) to convert ALL original analog masters to high-rez digital and to ONLY send out the digital copies to the mastering labs.
I'm afraid that the new WB vinyl releases you mention fall into this category - they are made from a digital copy and not the original analog master! This info is from the horses mouth as one of my customers is a musician who has had records cut by one of the best record cutting people out there - he was the one who told my customer about this practice.
This considered, it should come as no surprise that the original records sound so much better. There are also other pressings where this is the case. About a year or two ago Japanese pressings of the entire Beatles catalog were released. Upon questioning one of our sources for records (we sell a handful of titles through the store) admitted that they were all digital remasters. So it is obviously caveat emptor when it comes to vinyl re-releases.
That's weird. The website belonging to the guy who's doing the remastering ( http://www.stevehoffman.tv/ ) claims they are from the Original Master Tapes: -
"Apr 26, 2007: Vinyl Fans Rejoice! Warner Bros./Reprise/Rhino Records Jumps Into The Audiophile Market with All-Time Classic Favorites mastered by Kevin Gray and Steve Hoffman at AcousTech Mastering! From the Original Analog Master Tapes! Pressed on Virgin 180-Gram Vinyl at RTI. Coming soon:"
Although the official WB Vinyl site doesn't mention this ( http://www.becausesoundmatters.com/ ) which is also odd.
Re: The Beatles, I heard that, due to red tape, it's very unlikely that the LPs will ever be reissued from the original tapes.
"Apr 26, 2007: Vinyl Fans Rejoice! Warner Bros./Reprise/Rhino Records Jumps Into The Audiophile Market with All-Time Classic Favorites mastered by Kevin Gray and Steve Hoffman at AcousTech Mastering! From the Original Analog Master Tapes! Pressed on Virgin 180-Gram Vinyl at RTI. Coming soon:"
Although the official WB Vinyl site doesn't mention this ( http://www.becausesoundmatters.com/ ) which is also odd.
Re: The Beatles, I heard that, due to red tape, it's very unlikely that the LPs will ever be reissued from the original tapes.
Interesting topic!
I have the same experience with vinyl reissues as you have, but not just limited to recent years. I remember comparing supposedly audiophile pressings back in the 90's and I couldn't find a single one that sounded better than the original (that is: one made quite soon after the record was first released) of that album.
I worked in a hifi shop back then and we sold some of these audiophile vinyls, but after having compared them I could no longer recommend them. The best sounding one was close to the original, but not quite. Many (including Beatles) sounded polished but lacking in musicality.
I have a reissue of Beethoven's 5th by Kleiber, though! Fantastic record!!
The reissue was made by the former Linn distributor in Sweden; High Fidelity in Stockholm (today a Linn shop with the same name). It was a series of classical recordings called Immortal Masterpieces by Recut Records. As they were Linn distributors back then, I think that Linn Records might have been involved in the production.
Most likely these records aren't available any more, but IF the shop still have a few Kleibers in a basement somewhere, I'd be more than happy to buy them and send to anyone interested. It would also be interesting to hear how good this Kleiber reissue is compared to the Decca original (which I have never seen or heard)...
The only other record I have from Recut Record's Immortal Masterpieces series is Bartok Piano Concerto no 3 + Ravel Piano Concerto i G major, with Julius Katchen on piano and Istvan Kertesz conducting the London Symphony Orchestra, 1966.
I have the same experience with vinyl reissues as you have, but not just limited to recent years. I remember comparing supposedly audiophile pressings back in the 90's and I couldn't find a single one that sounded better than the original (that is: one made quite soon after the record was first released) of that album.
I worked in a hifi shop back then and we sold some of these audiophile vinyls, but after having compared them I could no longer recommend them. The best sounding one was close to the original, but not quite. Many (including Beatles) sounded polished but lacking in musicality.
I have a reissue of Beethoven's 5th by Kleiber, though! Fantastic record!!
The reissue was made by the former Linn distributor in Sweden; High Fidelity in Stockholm (today a Linn shop with the same name). It was a series of classical recordings called Immortal Masterpieces by Recut Records. As they were Linn distributors back then, I think that Linn Records might have been involved in the production.
Most likely these records aren't available any more, but IF the shop still have a few Kleibers in a basement somewhere, I'd be more than happy to buy them and send to anyone interested. It would also be interesting to hear how good this Kleiber reissue is compared to the Decca original (which I have never seen or heard)...
The only other record I have from Recut Record's Immortal Masterpieces series is Bartok Piano Concerto no 3 + Ravel Piano Concerto i G major, with Julius Katchen on piano and Istvan Kertesz conducting the London Symphony Orchestra, 1966.
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monkeydevil
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I don't want to name the mastering engineer but he has cut very many of the "Audiophile Records" and he assured my customer that these were from digital copies. I'll double check next time he is in the store.
I note, however, that the statement you quote doesn't state that they come DIRECTLY from the original master tapes. They could easily come from the original master tapes via a digital copy and you still wouldn't likely be able to legally challenge them in the US.
I note, however, that the statement you quote doesn't state that they come DIRECTLY from the original master tapes. They could easily come from the original master tapes via a digital copy and you still wouldn't likely be able to legally challenge them in the US.
Wow - that's pretty amazing if it's true, especially as the mastering engineer, mentioned above, seems to pride himself on always using the original masters, at least according to his website.
I'm just glad I've discovered now that audiophile LPs are not what they're cracked up to be before spending a fortune on them. Without Tune Dem, I'd still be trusting that better Hi-Fi means better music despite my gut feeling that there was something lacking. I could never understand why my Linn dealer was so disinterested in audiophile LPs - now I know.
I'm just glad I've discovered now that audiophile LPs are not what they're cracked up to be before spending a fortune on them. Without Tune Dem, I'd still be trusting that better Hi-Fi means better music despite my gut feeling that there was something lacking. I could never understand why my Linn dealer was so disinterested in audiophile LPs - now I know.
I have checked the Recut Records Beethovens 5th with Kleiber: The shop still has "a small bunch" of them left!
I also got the complete story, and it's a faschinating one: They borrowed the original master tapes from Decca, sent them to Linn who did the master. The LP's were finally pressed in Sweden, where they compared all types of vinyl they could find. Best sounding was the most expensive German vinyl, so they went with that.
They did compare their creation with the Decca original LP and the new one was MUCH better, both musically and sonically.
There were only 2 more records made by Recut Records (4 in total), don't remember the titles at the moment.
For those of you who are seriously interested in this album and can't visit the shop yourselves: I will buy a bunch next time I visit them and try to send them out to you. As I have never sent records in the mail, I might need some advice on proper packaging etc, but I'll do my best.
I'll take orders on this topic - if that's ok with you Charlie? - not sure how many I can get and what they will cost yet, will come back to that. Broccoli - 1, Charlie - 1. Anyone else?
I also got the complete story, and it's a faschinating one: They borrowed the original master tapes from Decca, sent them to Linn who did the master. The LP's were finally pressed in Sweden, where they compared all types of vinyl they could find. Best sounding was the most expensive German vinyl, so they went with that.
They did compare their creation with the Decca original LP and the new one was MUCH better, both musically and sonically.
There were only 2 more records made by Recut Records (4 in total), don't remember the titles at the moment.
For those of you who are seriously interested in this album and can't visit the shop yourselves: I will buy a bunch next time I visit them and try to send them out to you. As I have never sent records in the mail, I might need some advice on proper packaging etc, but I'll do my best.
I'll take orders on this topic - if that's ok with you Charlie? - not sure how many I can get and what they will cost yet, will come back to that. Broccoli - 1, Charlie - 1. Anyone else?
I have to say that I agree with Fredrik that I have never been all that impressed with audiophile pressings. I used to work at a shop that sold Original Master Recordings and I really preferred the standard pressings. I do feel that the Classic Records pressings seem to be fairly good but most that I've bought have been of records I don't already own or that are only available through them like the Norah Jones records.
My understanding was that the Rekut records were cut by Linn on their highly customized record cutting lathe as were a number of records on the Linn label such as the first Blue Nile and some Ossian records among others. The Linn Selekt records, however, were just re-pressings of the original records by the same companies who did them in the first place. The idea was to make available a variety of music that Linn felt had merit and spanned a range of different types.
My understanding was that the Rekut records were cut by Linn on their highly customized record cutting lathe as were a number of records on the Linn label such as the first Blue Nile and some Ossian records among others. The Linn Selekt records, however, were just re-pressings of the original records by the same companies who did them in the first place. The idea was to make available a variety of music that Linn felt had merit and spanned a range of different types.
Ok, one for Thomas as well.
I agree with you about Linn Records versus Linn Select, but don't mix Recut (not Rekut) into that, it was a Swedish project by the Swedish Linn distributor. Linn helped them with making a master from the original tapes.
Listening to it now, I can't describe how powerful this version of the 5th symphony is. The first part is like war.
And this recording is from 1949! How much progress have we made since then...? That's something to discuss for sure.
By the way, I think the first and second Blue Nile albums (both made by Linn) are fantastic. The third is also good, but I don't feel quite as connected with it (I suspect the non-Linn production is partly responsible for this). The fourth I never really got into...
I agree with you about Linn Records versus Linn Select, but don't mix Recut (not Rekut) into that, it was a Swedish project by the Swedish Linn distributor. Linn helped them with making a master from the original tapes.
Listening to it now, I can't describe how powerful this version of the 5th symphony is. The first part is like war.
And this recording is from 1949! How much progress have we made since then...? That's something to discuss for sure.
By the way, I think the first and second Blue Nile albums (both made by Linn) are fantastic. The third is also good, but I don't feel quite as connected with it (I suspect the non-Linn production is partly responsible for this). The fourth I never really got into...
My first gut reaction was to put down an order for me to. I already have one, but on such a record you would want a spare. It's just the best classical record I have ever heard! And it was recorded (As I have heard, true or not? Can anyone confirm?) on a steel wire, not tape. In the 1940'ies! (In mono, obviously.) When I checked my LP's to see what "Imortal Masterpieces", (IM) I have from the Recut label I discovered that the younger me, was way ahead of the older me. I had already bought a spare! So I have two already, it wouldn't be right to deny any of you this stunning record! I have, in addition to the ones Fredrik have (IM1-2) a "Beethoven - Piano Concerto No 1, Choral Fantasia" (labeled IM3). But the Symphony No 5 with Erich Kleiber is the best one. (Not Carlos!) Anyone have the IM4?
Interestingly I played this record for a Classik Music customer at the local Linnstore (www.tonlaget.se) on a Keeled LP12 with Ekos SE and Adikt. He was stunned and afterwards he said that it almost never sound like that when he plays in the Gothenburg symphonic orchestra! He said he sits in the middle and said that on very very rare occasions he can get the same magic feeling as he got listening to that record. All that from a 1940'ies steel wire! If you can get this record from Fredrik you should be very greatful, it is absolutely stunning! Worth whatever it costs to buy and ship.
It is also great to play for "sound" customers who have trouble getting tunedem. You can't argue with that music, despite mono (no "perspective" at all, what horror!), limited frequency range and some hiss and noice.
Interestingly I played this record for a Classik Music customer at the local Linnstore (www.tonlaget.se) on a Keeled LP12 with Ekos SE and Adikt. He was stunned and afterwards he said that it almost never sound like that when he plays in the Gothenburg symphonic orchestra! He said he sits in the middle and said that on very very rare occasions he can get the same magic feeling as he got listening to that record. All that from a 1940'ies steel wire! If you can get this record from Fredrik you should be very greatful, it is absolutely stunning! Worth whatever it costs to buy and ship.
It is also great to play for "sound" customers who have trouble getting tunedem. You can't argue with that music, despite mono (no "perspective" at all, what horror!), limited frequency range and some hiss and noice.
I think maybe there is some confusion here. I've just re-checked leo's link (http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/0 ... eiber.html) and he's definitely recommending Carlos Kleiber, not Erich. So it appears that I may have two essential Beethoven 5th's to obtain. I wonder how many interpretation's of Beethoven's 5th's I really need, especially from the same family! Perhaps Grandma Kleiber also had a crack at it and I should get that one too :lol: just teasing!
Only if you have a player for those Edison rolls... :mrgreen:Charlie1 wrote:Perhaps Grandma Kleiber also had a crack at it and I should get that one too
I would bet on the father for most musical magic! But I really would like to hear what the son of such a great man can do with the No 5. I will look for it.