What happened to the pre-amp in the hierarchy with Exakt?

Per A · Post by **Per A** » 2014-04-06 09:56

It used to be that the DS built-in digital volume control was inferior to a preamplifiers. I did find that out for myself years ago comparing my Akurate DS with Akurate Kontrol.
With the introduction of Exakt suddenly Klimax Kontrol is worthless according to Linn's logic. There i something not quite right here or did Linn improve the volume control with Exakt?
I have enjoyed listening to Exakt but this break in the hierarchy of source, control, power and speakers is strange.

hcl · Post by **hcl** » 2014-04-06 10:52

I too did comparisons between the built in digital volume controls of the DS and having the DS on full (zero) gain and the volume control in a separate pre-amp. At taht time I came to the conclusion that the digital volume control was inferior. However, there has been improvements made to the DS algorithms with bearing on the quality of the digital volume control in the DS. Linn (at least one of its representatives) claims that after the last improvements (of the DSs) it is only a matter of taste if one would prefer to use a pre-amp, for the flawour it adds, rather than from a pure quality perspective. I would not know, because I have not tried it and as I need a pre to be able to switch between sources (I have no DSM), it is not much of a question (for me at the moment).

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-04-06 14:58

it is only a matter of taste

for the flawour it adds

I solemnly swear never to describe the performance of my products in such ways. Or start calling myself an audiophile.

I was twice promised the latest algorithm would make the digital volume superior to analogue. Not "a matter of taste", superior. Big disappointment both times and I am still puzzled why anyone would make that claim.

I think several people in here have made the comparison with and without their preamp, using the latest DS firmware. What results did you get?

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2014-04-06 15:34

Even if the dig vol control is better with every generation Linn components, it's still less good.
Depressing that with Exakt, Linn now consider dig pre better. And it's not a way testing it either.

And comparing different versions of the Harmonihyllan (from Tonlaget.com) and K400 length optimization, it's obvious how important small details are for overall performance.

btw, any out there that consider Exakt more musical than the "old" Klimax system?
And I don't mean comparing with KDSM/K350A a valid test as KDS/KK/350A better.

And Exakt room correction totally mess up the music, depressing!

pdcman · Post by **pdcman** » 2014-04-12 22:06

Whilst I adore my KK, and was delighted in what it brought to the party with my KDS/solos/350's, the Exakt is still a considerable improvement in ALL areas of my listening pleasure each time I've heard it.

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2014-04-20 20:44

According to Linn the analogue pre amp turns the lossless file into a lossy file and so on down the chain

pdcman · Post by **pdcman** » 2014-04-21 09:30

Lego wrote:According to Linn the analogue pre amp turns the lossless file into a lossy file and so on down the chain

Not quite true. The DAC in the DS turns a lossless file into a lossy file, then the preamp tries to preserve as much of it as possible, whilst regulating the lossy analogue signal from the DS before presenting it to the power amp.
The KK does this in the best way possible.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-04-21 10:59

It's a marketing ploy to talk about analogue signals as "lossy". Lossless or lossy refers to digital data - either you have all the information (lossless) or you have discarded some to gain convenience (speed/file size).

The purpose of this marketing ploy is to make people focus on theoretical advantages ("Do I still have all my data?") instead of practical results ("Does this piece of music move me?"). Not unlike how the japanese HiFi companies of the past tried convincing people with numbers (frequency response, distortion, etc).

pdcman · Post by **pdcman** » 2014-04-21 11:09

Are you therefore hinting that the exakt system is flawed musically?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-04-21 12:18

pdcman wrote:Are you therefore hinting that the exakt system is flawed musically?

No, I am not hinting anything.

Exact is a highly complex system that I'm sure could be made to work well. Some people love high tech and theoretical perfection. I believe in simple systems, where as many details as possible are optimised.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-04-21 22:29

And I must add: The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Regardless of what technology is used, the system that gives you the most thrilling moments is the best!

Per A · Post by **Per A** » 2014-05-03 20:38

It also used to be that the source was no 1 priority which was a simple idea once you had grasped the hierarchial relationships. Now the source is in the speaker and does that refer to the crossover? I have concluded that I like Linn amps with ATC speakers better than other amps and Linn speakers, only Akubariks have challenged my scm20. I wonder if anyone will try the tunebox with other amps and just how that can be done without buying it first. How much is an akurate exakt and a tunebox?

Flatcoat · Post by **Flatcoat** » 2014-05-04 08:41

Akurate EDSM is £4000. Akurate tune boxes are not available yet but Klimax tuneboxes are £10000 (Klimax EDSM is £10000). You need one tunebox for a 2 or 3 way speaker. Looking at those prices, Akurate tuneboxes could be £4000 ???

So an Akurate DSM with Akurate tunebox, s/h 6100 amp and 109s could be in the region of £10000.

Per A wrote:It also used to be that the source was no 1 priority which was a simple idea once you had grasped the hierarchial relationships. Now the source is in the speaker and does that refer to the crossover? I have concluded that I like Linn amps with ATC speakers better than other amps and Linn speakers, only Akubariks have challenged my scm20. I wonder if anyone will try the tunebox with other amps and just how that can be done without buying it first. How much is an akurate exakt and a tunebox?

Per A · Post by **Per A** » 2014-05-04 08:51

Thanks Flatcoat, that is a lot of money.

Philosophically speaking
If the source is now the crossover and if this has advanced to the uppermost position of the hierarchy, does not that mean that the Kiko is better than the Klimax DS since it also has a digital crossover?

CJ1045 · Post by **CJ1045** » 2014-05-04 10:19

I don't think your Akurate numbers are Akurate Flatcoat as the standard Akurate DSM is £5600 so I think the Exakt version is more than that

CJ

Flatcoat · Post by **Flatcoat** » 2014-05-04 12:02

My dealer told me the Akurate EDSM is £4000. KEDSM is £10000. Akurate tunebox is not available yet so my price is a guess.

CJ1045 wrote:I don't think your Akurate numbers are Akurate Flatcoat as the standard Akurate DSM is £5600 so I think the Exakt version is more than that

CJ

Flatcoat · Post by **Flatcoat** » 2014-05-04 12:12

It will be interesting to compare Akurate EDSM connected to a single Tunebox with say 6100 and 109s, to a KDS1/KK1 plus amp and speakers. The Akurate EDSM with tunbox could easily be under £9000 compared to £21000 for KDS/KK1. Knowing how much Exakt adds, my guess is that the cheaper system will be better. So is it a lot of money ?

[quote="Per A"]Thanks Flatcoat, that is a lot of money.

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2014-05-04 14:24

On the other side it would be interesting to compare the AKURATE EXAKT SYSTEM for 25k to a system with a very good DAC, SAGATUN and ATC SCM100ASL.
I think I would prefer the latter offer to the former one......

KR
Matt

Per A · Post by **Per A** » 2014-05-04 16:12

I would not think so having owned active Atc 10 and tested atc p1 power amp and it was a disappointment when it came to tunefulness. I prefer my 2250 very much. Active atc are a built on a number of their ths inferior amps. This is what I like with the hierarchy.

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2014-05-04 16:41

Per A wrote:I would not think so having owned active Atc 10 and tested atc p1 power amp and it was a disappointment when it came to tunefulness. I prefer my 2250 very much. Active atc are a built on a number of their ths inferior amps. This is what I like with the hierarchy.

Per,
did you try the better discrete anniversary amp pack?
IMO, for the price of the Linn AES there are some alternatives with Lejonklou amps

KR
Matt

Per A · Post by **Per A** » 2014-05-04 17:34

The amp packs I know of are for three wsay speaker not my 20s alas. Their P4 can be used to activate them but it is 80 kkr about 7500 pounds I believe.

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2014-05-04 17:45

Per A wrote:The amp packs I know of are for three wsay speaker not my 20s alas. Their P4 can be used to activate them but it is 80 kkr about 7500 pounds I believe.

What do you think about passive ATCs with Tundra Monos?

Per A · Post by **Per A** » 2014-05-04 18:05

That could be great.

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2014-05-04 19:23

Per A wrote:That could be great.

BTW, I would like to listen to ZU AUDIO DRUIDs MkV, driven by SAGATUN and TUNDRA.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/new-sensations

KR
Matt

Erik · Post by **Erik** » 2014-05-05 07:58

Per A wrote:
Philosophically speaking
If the source is now the crossover and if this has advanced to the uppermost position of the hierarchy, does not that mean that the Kiko is better than the Klimax DS since it also has a digital crossover?

I think "Source in the speaker" is totally B/S. Everyone who has compared ethernet cables and also heard what a difference a NAS can do must be skeptical to the marketing statement.
And why is still the LP12 superior, even through a Exakt system?

/Erik