Topica forum down almost a week...

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Topica forum down almost a week...

Post by Music Lover »

What happened with Topica?
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by dlorde »

I dunno. I emailed them at the support address when it first happened, but I haven't had a response. Mind you, Pipex have been bouncing and dropping emails forwarded to my email accounts since mid-December, and haven't responded to my support requests yet, so it's probably early days yet for a passive system like Topica.

Personally, I hope we all have to move somewhere better - IMO Topica is a horrible anachronism.
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Post by Harry Munk »

Who cares? Frankly, it is an embarrassment when you consider that the only dedicated online Linn discussion forum is a perennially low-volume mailing list (nothing wrong with them per se) that would have been considered dated and feature-poor 10 years ago.

Surely us discerning types, who care deeply over the minutiae of such matters as high performance music reproduction, deserve better than a crappy list serv with terrible web interface, limited options and no working search? I've said this many times before though (search on Topica if you want to find previous rants. Ha! :)) but unless the Topica list has a stake driven through it's feeble heart then I fear the online Linn community is doomed to forever be tiny and relatively ineffective. Compare with the admittedly factory-run Naim forum so see the kind of thing Linn owners are missing.

A properly managed vBulletin forum such as this would easily attract both hardcore and passing Linn fans and would quickly build into the place for Linn discussion. Put yourself in the shoes of someone considering a Linn system or component and search for things like 'linn discussion', 'linn forum' or 'linn users' - Hardly inspiring you to commit not insignificant amounts of cash in a Linn system, is it? We should kill Topica for the future resale value of our equipment and the long-term survival of Linn Products Ltd. if nothing else!

Fredrik has a nice setup here (although my screen is wider than 600 pixels! ;)), he's obviously committed to the same ideals as Linn and the site is attracting thoughtful and intelligent posters. We should embrace the fact that Topica seems to be shooting itself in the foot and jump at the chance to move wholesale to Lejonklou.com. Or, we can divide and flounder, as I'm sure I've said somewhere before.
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Post by dlorde »

Harry Munk wrote:Fredrik has a nice setup here (although my screen is wider than 600 pixels! ;)), he's obviously committed to the same ideals as Linn and the site is attracting thoughtful and intelligent posters. We should embrace the fact that Topica seems to be shooting itself in the foot and jump at the chance to move wholesale to Lejonklou.com. Or, we can divide and flounder, as I'm sure I've said somewhere before.
I think the problem is that the forum rules here (http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=51#51) are too restrictive for most Linn Topica members to join wholeheartedly.
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Post by Harry Munk »

The Topica rules are pretty similar.
Topica rules:
IMPORTANT: Contributors to this forum are asked to use the 'Tune' (or 'Sing Along' or 'Silent Repetition') method developed by Linn when evaluating and comparing equipment. By doing this, we are not only using the method that lies behind every product designed by Linn but are also able to communicate with a common reference instead of just exchanging subjective opinions. Personal opinions and ideas are of course welcome in addition to the outcome of the 'Tune' method.

For more information on the 'Tune' method, please ask your Linn retailer and/or read the explanation that has been posted on this list at:
http://www.topica.com/lists/linn/read/m ... 1710587265
Or is it just the phrasing of the Lejonklou t&cs that offends, as it is more strongly worded and would seem to preclude differing opinions?

Please note that I've no particular axe to grind for this forum, anything has to be better than Topica, I'm just trying to understand your position.
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Post by Ceilidh »

Hello Dave,

Thank you very much for your comments! :D I'm also curious (given that 6 Topica folks have now said this forum's too restrictive): is it the Tune Dem requirement that that's bothering people? Or is it something else?

Looking forward to your thoughts, and hope you (and your family) are having a nice start to the new year. Cheers!

-C
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Post by lejonklou »

Harry Munk wrote:The Topica rules are pretty similar.
Welcome Harry and everyone else!

I was wondering why all of a sudden a whole bunch of people registered here... :? I didn't know topica had problems.

About the rules, the story is this: I started linn@topica in february 2000 and wrote the rules you are quoting. Initially I invited all Linn retailers in the world and quite a bunch of them (around 70) joined. After a while the rumour spread and people started finding their way there. The retailers disappeared one by one and customers took their place. After a few years the number of subscribers was close to 500.

Back then I was a rather harsh moderator (follow the rules or go somewhere else!) and some people appreciated that - especially those who, like me, used the Tune Method and wanted a place where everyone spoke the same language. Others thought I was mean and close minded when I didn't allow "alternative opinions". If you browse through the topica archives, see if you can find the fights between me and Remco Meyer for example. :D

After a couple of years, I got into a position where I didn't have time for topica so I decided to give it away. Stephen Mintz volunteered and since then the original rules have not been enforced. Any opinion is now allowed on topica.

On this forum, however, the old mean rules are once again in effect. My focus is quality, not quantity. This means I'd rather have a small forum where everyone judge things by the same standard and a tip of, say, what to replace the LP12 felt mat with, becomes valuable to all - than a crowded place where everyone knows such tips don't mean much.

Anyone is welcome here, but those who contribute should use the Tune Method when judging performance. Other, more subjective, comments are welcome in addition to the outcome of the Tune Method. An example: "It performs better than Katan (judged with the Tune Method), but I personally find the deep bass a bit too polite and laid back for my liking".
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Post by dlorde »

I'm not too fussed about the forum rules myself - if I transgress, I would expect to be warned, then I could decide whether to stay or not.

I don't know for sure, because they haven't said (Topica being out of action except for post headings) but I suspect what some Topica people find unpalatable is the latter section of the rules where it says: "Please check that you agree with the following statements:". Personally, although I believe tune-dem is a very useful evaluation tool, I don't necessarily agree with those statements, and from my own experience, certainly not that the speaker is the least important item in the chain. There's a lot of stuff on audio forums I don't agree with, but where belief systems are involved, it's not usually worth arguing the toss. Live & let live.

If agreeing with those statements in the forum rules is a condition of participating, then I suppose I'm flouting the rules by posting this! :P
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Re: Topica down!

Post by vicdiaz »

A few minutes ago I finally got a reply from them regarding a service ticket I opened two days ago.

They still don't have a clue on what's going on...
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Post by lejonklou »

dlorde wrote:although I believe tune-dem is a very useful evaluation tool, I don't necessarily agree with those statements, and from my own experience, certainly not that the speaker is the least important item in the chain
dlorde, when you say that the speaker is not the least important item in the chain, do you mean that

1. this is your personal standpoint (after all, the choice of speaker is often a very personal and subjective decision where one might trade Tune Dem-performance for deep bass etc)

or

2. to maximise the tunefulness of a system, there are other components that are less important than the speakers. If so, which ones?

My standpoint is that I have no problem with personal opinions, as long as they are reported in addition to the performance evaluated with the Tune Method. If you leave out the Tune Method evaluation, you are not using the language we use to communicate here.
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Post by Village Idiot »

Hi everyone, I'm another import from the Topica forum.

The biggest problem I would have in keeping to the forum rules is that I always buy equipment ex-dem or second hand. Therefore I do not get the opportunity to demonstrate and compare equipment, whether on a tune-dem basis or otherwise. I also rarely get the opportunity to compare my new equipment with my old, the old piece has usually been sold already.

All I know is I put a better piece of Linn equipment in my system, and either quickly or more gradually I realise it has made my system better and more enjoyable, easier to follow the tune. I have learned from experience to trust Linn enough to buy 'blind'.

And yet, I still like to read and contribute on forums like Topica. To find out about new products, sometimes to buy or sell, or to listen to tips about system building.

I hope, if everyone is moving here from Topica, then I will be able to remain a member without ever being able to offer opinion about the merits of one piece of hifi over another.

I also hope you can also live with the fact that my turntable is a Rega P7! SInce I sold my Linn Basik a decade or more ago I have always been a Rega fan for record playing. Again, I never got to compare Rega record players against Linn, I only know that I like what I have now.
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Post by lejonklou »

Welcome here, Village Idiot! :)

I know of more people than you who are members here and only buy equipment second hand. Most of them have also reached your level of confidence in Linn - quite an achievement for a company when their customers buy products without ever having heard them!

You don't have to write reviews or share opinions of various models. Asking questions can be just as important!

I like Rega turntables and some of their other products as well. I hope it's obvious to everyone that this is is NOT a Linn-only forum! It's the method of evaluation - to focus on the musical parameters instead of the sound - that we share with Linn, not necessarily the choice of brand or units.

What I personally see as most important is to maximise the musical enjoyment from a hifi system for a given sum of money. I don't care about the brand or the prestige, it's the emotions I get when listening to music that I crave.

To once again clarify: The mean rules here serve one purpose: To keep all the non-Tune Demming audiophiles out of this forum. Don't get me wrong, I meet and talk with audiophiles quite often. I try to always listen and learn, some have lots of experience and knowledge and I respect their opinions. But to me it's two fundamentally different hobbies: Theirs is to achieve the best possible sound. Ours is to maximise the musicality.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Welcome Village Idiot and others coming over from Topica,

I fully agree with Fredrik, this is not a Linn forum but is a forum about getting the most musical performance from your system regardless of the brands and models of components. We use the Tune method outlined by Linn because we have found that it focuses us on what is musically important in optimizing a system rather than focusing on the "sound" which often leads to less involving choices in equipment and setup.

I like and sell Rega components and I feel the P7 is a truly fine table for the money. And you will notice in other threads that a number of other products are mentioned and recommended. We do tend to talk about Linn a lot because, as you have found, they tend to make many of the most musical products you can buy. But as Fredrik, AVI, ATC and others have shown they do not have the market for musical hi-fi equipment cornered, especially in the more moderate price ranges.

The point is not that you have to review equipment to be a valued member here or even that you have to agree with any of the members - the point is that when making recommendations and observations on equipment and setup you use the Tune method as your main tool for evaluating the differences in quality you hear and present.
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Post by dlorde »

lejonklou wrote:dlorde, when you say that the speaker is not the least important item in the chain, do you mean that

1. this is your personal standpoint (after all, the choice of speaker is often a very personal and subjective decision where one might trade Tune Dem-performance for deep bass etc)
Yes, personal experience suggests that for me personally, that the biggest changes, particularly improvements in my overall appreciation and enjoyment, have come when I have changed speakers.
2. to maximise the tunefulness of a system, there are other components that are less important than the speakers. If so, which ones?
I think it's impossible and/or pointless to generalize about which component is most important for tunefulness, as it's entirely context-dependent. Whichever component is the weakest link in the chain of any particular system, with regards to tunefulness (i.e. tune-dem) is well-placed to produce the greatest improvement in tunefulness on replacement. I would like to add the rider 'all other things being equal', but what does that mean? Given all the variables - how the listener judges the relative difference in component contribution, the various levels of quality of the components, the relative quality of the replacement, the relative cost of components, etc., etc., I don't think it is productive to argue for any particular ordering of component importance. I'm happy to agree that any active component in a decent system can and does contribute to the tunefulness. In the systems I have put together, I would judge that changing the speakers has increased my enjoyment more than changing any other component, (e.g. although the change from CMS Di to Unidisk SC was a jaw-dropping surprise, replacing acktive Katans with active Akurate 212s was a bigger subjective improvement). In my opinion, it's a subjective judgement call for a given component in a given system.
If you leave out the Tune Method evaluation, you are not using the language we use to communicate here.
I try to use the Tune Method as part of every evaluation, because that's a part of how I listen to music anyway. I like the music itself - I love listening to Charlie Parker play 'Koko', regardless of the poor quality of the recording, but I also like the sound of superbly recorded music, such as Linn's recording of Handel's 'Messiah' by the Dunedin Consort, Saint-Saens Symphony No.3 by the Boston Symphony Orchestra, 'Raising Sand' by Robert Plant & Alison Krauss, 'Come Away With Me' by Norah Jones, 'Making Music' by Zakir Hussein, etc. Put great music and good sound quality together and you have it all. Trying to follow the tune is a part of everyday listening for me.
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Post by Lego »

Hold on dlorde :? That does'nt make sense!Having heard none of the items you refer to I would still bet my woolly hat that the akurates were simply showing you how much better the unidisk sc is compared to the CMS Di.You would probably think the akurates were worse than the katans if you had a £30 Tesco cd plalyer as your source.

Lets keep it real chaps :roll:

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Post by dlorde »

Lego wrote:... I would still bet my woolly hat that the akurates were simply showing you how much better the unidisk sc is compared to the CMS Di.
Perhaps I didn't explain clearly enough - I was using active Katans with CMS Di and then upgraded to the Unidisk SC. The improvement was huge - the Katans really sang, and I reconsidered my intention to upgrade the speakers also. Some time later, I found a pair of ex-dem Akurate 212s at a price too good to miss. When I replaced the active Katans with the active 212s, the improvement in following the tune, to my ears, was even greater than when moving from CMS Di to Unidisk SC with the Katans.

[So it was actually the Katans that showed me how much better the Unidisk was compared to the CMS Di].

Of course, it's all totally subjective - some time had elapsed, the difference was qualitative as well as quantative, so I'm aware that the comparison isn't really very meaningful or useful, but it's the only way I can respond. I have no objective scale on which to measure how much better the Unidisk is than the CMS Di, nor for how much better the Akurates are than the Katans, let alone in the context of my particular system and environment, so judging the importance of source compared to speakers on the improvements each has made to my system is pure guesswork. To be honest, I think it's a pretty pointless exercise, and I think the same applies to generic statements about the most 'important' component in a generic system. Whenever an upgrade is considered to a real system, the circumstances are different every time - equipment, finance, opportunity, bang-per-buck, room environment, user preference, future plans, etc., all influence the decision. If there's an obvious weak link, you try to address it, if possible. If not, you make whatever improvements you can - don't neglect the source, but equally, don't neglect the speakers, or any other relevant components.
You would probably think the akurates were worse than the katans if you had a £30 Tesco cd plalyer as your source.
I'm not sure I follow your logic there. I suspect the Akurates would make the shortcomings of the CD player more obvious, but does that mean I'd think they were worse speakers? without trying it, it's pure speculation.
Lets keep it real chaps :roll:
Well quite - woolly hat or no, what I'm describing here are my own real experiences with the actual kit in question...
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Post by Lego »

I think i get it now.You're saying there is a bigger difference between the Katans and 212s compared to the CMS Di and the unidisk ?
I know that tune
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Post by vicdiaz »

FYI Topica is back online!
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Post by dlorde »

Lego wrote:I think i get it now.You're saying there is a bigger difference between the Katans and 212s compared to the CMS Di and the unidisk ?
That's how it seemed to me with my system at the time. My main point is that it's a pretty pointless and meaningless comparison for the reasons already given.
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Post by Music Lover »

dlorde wrote:
Lego wrote:I think i get it now.You're saying there is a bigger difference between the Katans and 212s compared to the CMS Di and the unidisk ?
That's how it seemed to me with my system at the time. My main point is that it's a pretty pointless and meaningless comparison for the reasons already given.
Agree!

The hierarchy (the source is more important than the speaker etc) is NOT the same as saying that you can't achieve a bigger musical improvement changing speakers than source :!:

For me it’s about these facts:
All components in a HIFIsystem affect the tune.
What is lost is lost and cant be re-created.

So logically, the source IS most important.
I.e. Source first!
(that will also mean that normally an upgrade in the source going to enhance the tune most but that is a consequence, not the basic idea behind source first)

Btw, the sound normally is changed most in the speakers. So, I fully understand people that select the speakers due to personal preferences.
They may not obtain most musicality for their money but it’s more than just musicality.
Personally - dynamics and SLAM is also fun. :mrgreen:


On this forum we assume that if nothing is mentioned, it's the tune we talking about.
Said that, we can dicuss the sound as well, we just making sure that is absolutely clear.

So no issue posting here despite not agreeing 100% on the forum rules - just respect them posting :wink:

fyi, I post on HIFI forums where the sound is the ONLY important matter, but as long as you understand and respect the "rules" - you can learn and contribute everywhere :D
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by ThomasOK »

vicdiaz wrote:FYI Topica is back online!
Well it was up. I just looked at a couple of postings and then got the message that it was down for maintenance for the next 8 hours!
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Post by Music Lover »

"Maintenance In Progress"
12hours and counting, embarrasing :?

Seems they had maintenance during 10 days or so recently :wink:
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Post by Music Lover »

More than a day and counting...
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