Tune Dem of Headphones

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Re: superlux

Post by doze84 »

malpa wrote:no problem, as i said check some reviews, i paid 32 pounds on ebay and they are well worth the money, yesterday i compared them to bose headphones 140 pounds and the difference was massive, the clarity and the neutral sound of superlux is just fantastic.
its almost like having my linn system on my ears.
and you cant go wrong for 32 ponds.
let us know if you like it, best.
Don't trust reviews out there:)
Whathifi.com praised Primare I30 to the skies, and gave "Majik I" 3 of 5 stars.

I would give away Primare I30 for my computer speakers, because they play melodies better:)
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Post by Charlie1 »

doze84 wrote:If you could find a pair of Pioneer se-m280, they are in my opinion even more musical than akg k420p same price range. Out of stock everywhere though..
Thanks Doze. I'll have a nose around anyway, especially as you say they are more musical than the AKGs. Better sound would be good, but only if they are musically on par or better than what I already have.

BTW, looking at your website - I used to own a pair of HD60s many years ago. Unfortunately, they were stollen in the end. They made early CD bearable, so can't be bad.
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superlux

Post by malpa »

....i had majik i and sold id and never seen what hi-fi review.
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Re: superlux

Post by doze84 »

malpa wrote:....i had majik i and sold id and never seen what hi-fi review.
why did you sell it, was there something you didn't like about the sound, or just upgrade? I think it's unbeatable in musicality, maybe a Kikkin + klout might be better at the same price..but then you get no phono and headphone amp..
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Post by doze84 »

Charlie1 wrote:
doze84 wrote:If you could find a pair of Pioneer se-m280, they are in my opinion even more musical than akg k420p same price range. Out of stock everywhere though..
Thanks Doze. I'll have a nose around anyway, especially as you say they are more musical than the AKGs. Better sound would be good, but only if they are musically on par or better than what I already have.

BTW, looking at your website - I used to own a pair of HD60s many years ago. Unfortunately, they were stollen in the end. They made early CD bearable, so can't be bad.
I just ordered a pair of se-m290, also out of stock in most places. Seems like it could be the same membrane, just better body, let's hope the soldering and the cable is the same.
I'll get back to you
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Re: superlux

Post by malpa »

doze84 wrote:
malpa wrote:....i had majik i and sold id and never seen what hi-fi review.
why did you sell it, was there something you didn't like about the sound, or just upgrade? I think it's unbeatable in musicality, maybe a Kikkin + klout might be better at the same price..but then you get no phono and headphone amp..
i didn't think it was good enough to drive my k350 so i sold it and went for K electronics.
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Post by ThomasOK »

doze84 wrote: I just ordered a pair of se-m290, also out of stock in most places. Seems like it could be the same membrane, just better body, let's hope the soldering and the cable is the same.
I'll get back to you
Where did you find them?
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Post by ThomasOK »

As it seems the Pioneers are long gone I am looking for another recommendation. Debbie has recently gotten into headphone listening big time after borrowing the Grado 60s I bought Jake for Christmas a couple of years ago. Although she likes them a lot she is asking if there are any really good headphones that fit around the ear and preferably closed back? I know it is a lot to ask as most closed back headphones have not appealed to me.

Anyone have any suggestions/experience?
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Post by malpa »

ThomasOK wrote:As it seems the Pioneers are long gone I am looking for another recommendation. Debbie has recently gotten into headphone listening big time after borrowing the Grado 60s I bought Jake for Christmas a couple of years ago. Although she likes them a lot she is asking if there are any really good headphones that fit around the ear and preferably closed back? I know it is a lot to ask as most closed back headphones have not appealed to me.

Anyone have any suggestions/experience?
...as i suggested before Superlux HD668b ,...fantastic headphones!
silly price but the quality of sound just amazing.
...there are many forums where people talk about them and compare them to different ones, just google it.
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Post by Charlie1 »

ThomasOK wrote:As it seems the Pioneers are long gone I am looking for another recommendation. Debbie has recently gotten into headphone listening big time after borrowing the Grado 60s I bought Jake for Christmas a couple of years ago. Although she likes them a lot she is asking if there are any really good headphones that fit around the ear and preferably closed back? I know it is a lot to ask as most closed back headphones have not appealed to me.

Anyone have any suggestions/experience?
Christian's blog recommends the Beyerdynamic dt990, 2005 edition. The dt990 model is still available online, but they may have changed since 2005.
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Post by doze84 »

Charlie1 wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:As it seems the Pioneers are long gone I am looking for another recommendation. Debbie has recently gotten into headphone listening big time after borrowing the Grado 60s I bought Jake for Christmas a couple of years ago. Although she likes them a lot she is asking if there are any really good headphones that fit around the ear and preferably closed back? I know it is a lot to ask as most closed back headphones have not appealed to me.

Anyone have any suggestions/experience?
Christian's blog recommends the Beyerdynamic dt990, 2005 edition. The dt990 model is still available online, but they may have changed since 2005.
I can not say more about these than that they were best in that particular linn store. I've not compared it to the other headphones in the list. But I'm pretty convinced they are better than the cheaper grados..

I found the Pioneer se-290 headphones on ebay..:) But noone has heard them yet:)
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Post by doze84 »

ThomasOK wrote:As it seems the Pioneers are long gone I am looking for another recommendation. Debbie has recently gotten into headphone listening big time after borrowing the Grado 60s I bought Jake for Christmas a couple of years ago. Although she likes them a lot she is asking if there are any really good headphones that fit around the ear and preferably closed back? I know it is a lot to ask as most closed back headphones have not appealed to me.

Anyone have any suggestions/experience?
The
Beyerdynamic DT235, are at least among the better closed headphones i've heard. I was new to tune method, when I heard them so I can not comment where on the list they fit.
At least they are the prettiest ones on the list:)
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Post by doze84 »

Charlie1 wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:As it seems the Pioneers are long gone I am looking for another recommendation. Debbie has recently gotten into headphone listening big time after borrowing the Grado 60s I bought Jake for Christmas a couple of years ago. Although she likes them a lot she is asking if there are any really good headphones that fit around the ear and preferably closed back? I know it is a lot to ask as most closed back headphones have not appealed to me.

Anyone have any suggestions/experience?
Christian's blog recommends the Beyerdynamic dt990, 2005 edition. The dt990 model is still available online, but they may have changed since 2005.
They seem to be in both 250ohm and 600ohmm, but I think it is named, 2005 edition, and hopefully you will get the right ohm, if you look by that name:)

I've also recently had a recommendation on the Akg 702, from a quite trust worthy linndealer in Finland. They might be closed? But prob 3 -4 times the price of the beyerdynamic 235
(Nothing I've heard myself)
Last edited by doze84 on 2011-12-09 18:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Charlie1 »

doze84 wrote:I just ordered a pair of se-m290, also out of stock in most places. Seems like it could be the same membrane, just better body, let's hope the soldering and the cable is the same.
I'll get back to you
Thanks Christian!
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Post by doze84 »

Charlie1 wrote:
doze84 wrote:I just ordered a pair of se-m290, also out of stock in most places. Seems like it could be the same membrane, just better body, let's hope the soldering and the cable is the same.
I'll get back to you
Thanks Christian!
Still waiting for the headphones...
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Post by Linnofil »

Charlie1 wrote:
Linnofil wrote:So the Majik is good and I don't think it's going to be bettered by a cheap headphone amp. But with the Line Receiver you go from good to a lot better!

This is how the setup would look in your case. The Majik Kontrol is set to driver in the user setting and a Basik IR RCU + Linn remote is used to control the system and the volume for the headphones. http://forum.selleri.de/download.php?id=683
Only 4 years later to check this out, but can anyone explain in a bit more detail how Linnofil is suggesting the Knekt be user, as the link no longer works. Can I do this direct from the second set of Linto outputs? Also note that I am now using the Kikkin, so no KK.

I am using an old Kenwood tape deck at the moment, so am considering either the Rega Ear for about £150, but would look at some old Linn kit if it wasn't too expensive.

Only then will I look at some better headphones than the AKG K24P's, but if anyone has made any progress in subsequent years, reference finding more tuneful headphones (preferably with better sound and comfort), then would be great to get your feedback.
First of all, I'm sorry this reply is so late. I did write a long and very detailed reply on my iPhone and then got a phone call... The reply went into cyberspace and my very stressed mind couldn't handle it at the time. Very annoying! Well, back on topic.

My old tip was to use a Linn Knekt Line Receiver (with a RCU) as a headphone amp. It's not that expensive (eBay) and pretty good value. This is if you buy the first (single room) variant, the "Knekt Line Receiver". Do not buy the Line Receiver 2 (with subzone for another room) for this application as its headphone output is not (at all) as good as for the regular Line Receiver.

When there is a Line Driver (separate or integrated as in many older Linn products) in the system this solution can be (with the correct cable) placed anywhere in the home as this is a Knekt room solution, only without a power amp and speakers. When it's used as in Charlie's system it's only possible to place close to the main system as one of the local unbalanced (RCA) inputs are used (3 available, check for the best one, as usual). The Knekt input is balanced with a RJ45 connector.

In a simple application as this I would recommend the simple Basik IR RCU as this doesn't require any programming. It has a small jumper that is used for setting it up for the Line Receiver. With this RCU all control except on/off and volume +/- has to be done with a standard Linn remote. A normal Knekt RCU may actually cost just as much on eBay, or even be cheaper! But the normal Knekt RCU is trickier to set up.

Setting up this system is pretty simple. A 18 VAC power supply (usually included in the Line Receiver) is connected to the Line Receiver. The RCU is connected to the RCU connector on the Line Receiver with a special Cat5 cable terminated with RJ45 connectors*. The second Linto output is then connected to one of the Line receiver local inputs. The headphones are connected to the headphone output on the Line Receiver. All connectors are connected at the back of the Line Receiver. Done!

As a replacement for the picture in the broken link I can present this very visual ASCII image:

18VAC PS == =>
Basik IR RCU==> Line Receiver => AKG Headphones => Ears/brain
Linto output =>

This setup can also be used as a backup preamp (3 line level inputs, one preamp output) with a pretty usable level of quality. A cheap solution for a Linn preamp/headphone amp in my opinion. I hope this made sense.

*The Knekt cable looks just like a standard network cable, but doesn't have the same pinning. All Knekt cables are twisted (from driver to receiver and from receiver to RCU, the same cables can be used).

Connect like this:

First connector:
Pin 1 (blue/white) and 4 (blue) are a (remote control) pair
Pin 2 (orange/white) and 3 (orange) are a (audio) pair
Pin 5 (green) and 8 (green/white) are a (audio) pair
Pin 6 (brown) and 7 (brown/white) are a (remote control) pair

The other end:
Pin 1 (green/white) and 8 (blue/white) are swapped
Pin 2 (brown/white) and 7 (orange/white) are swapped
Pin 3 (brown) and 6 (orange) are swapped
Pin 4 (green) and 7 (blue) are swapped
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Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks Linnofil - that's very kind of you. I didn't realise there was some much detail. I will keep an eye out ;o)
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Post by ThomasOK »

Just decided to do a tune comparison of a number of headphones as the perfect opportunity came up. Also as I hadn't done any serious listening to the Grado headphones since they came out with the 'i" series. What got this all started was that Debbie wanted some headphones as she has taken to listening to music off the computer a lot since she started following Il Volo (a really remarkably good trio of teenage Italian vocalists who sing operatic pop - we saw them live in Detroit when they taped a concert for public TV that will air across the US in March).

Based on the comments here I decided to pick her up a set of AKG K420P. She wasn't initially sure she liked them as well as the Grado 60s I bought Jake a couple of years ago but has warmed up to them since they've burned in. (I could tell right off the bat that they were more tuneful than the 60s but they did sound a bit thin at first.) However after using them a while the plug broke off the cable. I am not sure if it wasn't made very well or if she had put too much stress on it. So I brought them into work and soldered a new plug on them with a higher construction quality (metal housing). Interestingly, when I gave them back to her she said they sounded definitely better with the new plug. Since I had them at the store I figured it was a good time to see how they and a number of the Grados compared. I will state right now that this is more of a preliminary finding as a couple of the Grados weren't burned in all that much and I only listened to them off my iPhone although I did use Apple Lossless files.

So here is what I found: The Grado 60i ($80) is quite good for the money. It is tuneful and well balanced and reasonably comfortable, certainly more so than the AKG K420P. However the K420P is obviously more tuneful than the 60i. The music just flows better and the instruments and vocals sound more real so the AKGs are certainly a bargain for the money. The Grado 80i ($100) was a little more detailed than the 60i with a touch deeper bass but I found it less tuneful and enjoyable than the 60i. This didn't totally surprise me as I had liked the original 60 better than the 80. But the next model up, the 125i, was the surprise of the whole batch. I will state right up front that the Grado SR125i ($150) is a really fine headphone. It is very musical, very tuneful with a well balanced sound top to bottom. It is definitely significantly more tuneful than the AKGs and has a better balance (more extended low end in particular). It is also is more comfortable as previously mentioned.

As I went further up the line of Grados I was strongly reminded of some of the comments by Charlie1 about certain components or shelves being cleaner and more detailed but, at the same time less musical than others. In the past I have heard products such as cables that were artificially more detailed yet were less well balanced than others but they really had less ability to pick up musical nuances when listened to closely. This was different. When I compared the Grado 225i ($200) to the 125i it was immediately obvious that there was more information coming through. I was able to more clearly hear the enunciation of the vocalist and the sound of the guitar strings. But I didn't like it as well! Even though everything sounded a bit muffled in comparison going back to the 125i, I enjoyed listening to them more. They were more fun, I was tapping my feet and bobbing my head more and I was drawn into the music more. Back to the 225i and everything was clearer, back to the 125i and it was more fun and I wanted to listen to the end of the track. This seems to me a lot like what Charlie1 found in comparing the AudioTech stand and Apollo wall shelf to the IsoBlue. At the time I didn't really understand it as I hadn't had that experience - now I believe I have. This comparison surprised me as I felt the original 225 was a big improvement over the 125, indeed one of the biggest improvements from one model to the next. Now I was enjoying the music more on the 125i than on the 225i! So now up to the 325is ($300). These are even more detailed than the 225i yet they also sound like they are starting to get the musical fun back. They are certainly a better headphone than the 225i but I still enjoyed the 125i more, again despite the instruments and voices sounding a bit muffled. So I went one more model up the range to the RS2i, the most expensive model we currently have in the store at $495. This is where it finally all came together. The RS2i has all the detail and the nuance of the 325is. You can hear the strokes on the Djembe better and the overtones have a more natural balance and decay on the Ben Harper cut I was listening to and Ben's voice was also clearer and more emotive. But the RS2i also swing! The music flows beautifully and makes you want to keep on listening. In sum the RS2i gives you the fun of the 125i and then some and also lets you hear much more of what is going on musically in whatever you are listening to. This to me was the first real step up from the 125i and really the next one above I would consider purchasing.

Now as mentioned this is mostly preliminary as the 225i and above are the ones with the least burn in time (although that didn't keep the RS2i from sounding really good). So I do hope to burn them in some more and do some further comparisons. I would also like to do some listening through the Majik DSM headphone circuit to give me a better source to start with. But I did find the comparisons most interesting and even eductaional. And I have to say that I feel the Gradi SR125i is a really fine headphone for the money and the RS2i are just really good. I am hoping to get in the relatively new PS500 sometime this year as the reviews have been very positive indicating that this might be a real breakthrough for the money. As it is only $100 more than the RS2i but is supposed to give you most of the musical quality of the $1700 PS1000 (which I haven't heard either but has received a lot of rave reviews) it could be a really good set of cans.
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Post by lejonklou »

Thanks for a very informative post, Thomas!

I've always liked Grado headphones, especially the SR60. Moving up the ladder in their range has been rather inconsistent, just as you describe it with the new 'i' generation (time for another letter to add to your product name, perhaps?). I always felt that above the 60 model, you won some qualities and lost others, and the price started making less sense.

I haven't yet listened to any of the i-models, and don't think I will find the time to listen through the whole range, so your information is highly appreciated.

Before I start any actual work on a headphone amp (I've been sketching on a design since 2010 and the interest in a high performing headphone amp appears to be growing), I will get myself a pair of 125i to add to the collection.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks Thomas for yet another very useful contribution to the forum.
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Post by Paaf »

I had never heard of Grado before I went to a local shop several years ago, and I was blown away with the hifi sound quality of the ones I tried, compared to a pair of slightly more expensive Sennheisers. Of course I bought the Grado, I think I paid 1350kr at the time.

I just looked and it's Grado SR80. Meh!

I don't like how they fit the ears, discomfort quickly, and the fact that the foam parts totally disintegrated after just a few years, on the other hand I've always enjoyed the sound... Though I never have gotten anywhere near the hifi sound they had in the shop. Must have been one h*ll of an amp they had there... (even in my Linn Majik DSi they don't seem to reach full potential).

[I am nowadays into the Tune Method.]

I'm curious to get the RS2i or better after your fine post here. Did you get a chance yet to test the PS500?

/Paaf
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Post by doze84 »

doze84 wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:
doze84 wrote:I just ordered a pair of se-m290, also out of stock in most places. Seems like it could be the same membrane, just better body, let's hope the soldering and the cable is the same.
I'll get back to you
Thanks Christian!
Still waiting for the headphones...
I finally received them after a couple of months. Apearantly I had given them the wrong address so the headphones went to sweden and back again:) my bad.

I haven't really compared them, sine my k420 are broken, but I would say they sound the same as I remember the pinoeer se-m280, and they are very involving. So I woould most certanly say they outperform the akg k420, and that is with some marigin. Anyone with akg k420 that wants to test them and verify this?(preferably in sweden)
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Post by ThomasOK »

Paaf wrote:I had never heard of Grado before I went to a local shop several years ago, and I was blown away with the hifi sound quality of the ones I tried, compared to a pair of slightly more expensive Sennheisers. Of course I bought the Grado, I think I paid 1350kr at the time.

I just looked and it's Grado SR80. Meh!

I don't like how they fit the ears, discomfort quickly, and the fact that the foam parts totally disintegrated after just a few years, on the other hand I've always enjoyed the sound... Though I never have gotten anywhere near the hifi sound they had in the shop. Must have been one h*ll of an amp they had there... (even in my Linn Majik DSi they don't seem to reach full potential).

[I am nowadays into the Tune Method.]

I'm curious to get the RS2i or better after your fine post here. Did you get a chance yet to test the PS500?

/Paaf
I did finally get a chance recently to give the PS500 a listen and I was very impressed. This is now my "somewhat pricey" go to headphone. In order to get a reasonable feel for them I grabbed the SR125i and the SR325is headphones for comparison and reacclimated myself to them. Despite additional burn in time the results were as I posted before, the 325is were more detailed but the 125i were more enjoyable and pulled you into the music more. Then I brought out the PS500 headphones. These were reminiscent of the RS2i in that they also were more detailed and informational than the 125i yet they also were very musical and had a really engaging quality to them. I ended up dancing around the store listening to a number of tracks on them. Are they better than the RS2i? I think so but I can't be sure as we sold the RS2i demos before the PS500 arrived. Going on memory I believe the PS500 are more balanced and extended on both frequency extremes and are also more naturally detailed and tuneful. They also have more bass power and texture without any sense of bloat or overbearing quality. I don't remember being this excited about the musicality of the RS2i. But it was at least a month between listening to the two so it is stretching my memory. So I would really recommend listening to both if at all possible. Unfortuantely that won't be possible at our store as we made the decision that for the additional $100 the PS500 made more sense and was more salable so we plan to stock them and not the RS2i. So unless I get a pair of RS2i back in for repair that I can give a quick listen to I doubt I'll be able to do a direct comparison. I can promise that the PS500 are quite good and definitely worth auditioning if they are in your price range. If I were buying an upscale headphone right now they would be the ones I would get.

While I was doing these comparisons I also evaluated another new headphone we just picked up which is interesting enough I thought I should post about it here. It is the PSB M4U 2. Right off I will say that these are a reasonably good sounding headphone but it is not the one you would buy if you were just looking for the best musical quality for the money. But that is not why you would buy this headphone, which requires some explanation. The PSB M4U 2 is not just a standard headphone and it is quite different than the Grados. For starters it is a sealed back headphone so people who want better isolation would find these a possibility. Even more interesting is that these are active noise canceling headphones. This gives them some interesting capabilities. In order to do the noise cancellation they have built in amps and a microphone that picks up outside noise and injects the same signal out of phase into the headphones to cancel the outside noise. This type of system has become very popular with frequent travelers to get rid of airplane noise and for others who are often in noisy environments. Unfortunately many of the headphones that have made this system famous, like the Bose, are simply bad sounding. These, on the other hand actually sound pretty good.

I did not evaluate their noise-cancelling abilities but TJ tried them outside and said it was pretty effective. I did evaluate them compared to the Grados an will cover that in a minute. First I will mention that these headphones have three modes: noise canceling, active and passive. The first I already talked about. The passive mode is just as it sounds and the internal electronics are turned off and bypassed so you have that option for the purest sound. The active mode disables the noise canceling circuitry but leaves the internal amp on. This allows you to better drive them with low output portable devices and to also save battery time on your typical iPod, iPhone, etc. They also have some other niceties like a removable cable that only plugs into one side but can be plugged into either side and there are two versions of this cable - one including a microphone and control for making calls through an iPhone. (I suppose this also means you could plug one cable each into two systems and mix the music in your head - Oh Boy! It doesn't, however, include roach clip for use in this situation.) Also included are a set of AA batteries, a 1/4" adapter and a nice carry case that fits all the accs. Oh yes, they are also foldable so the case is reasonably compact - although as they are oblong and completely surround the ear they are not small headphones.

Now onto the sound. Overall they are a well balanced and musical sounding headphone. They run $400 a pair in the US so they are midlevel in price. Musically I find them to be a bit muffled sounding and definitely less tuneful than the SR125i which runs $150 and I would say that overall that I feel they are close to the SR60i musically. TJ thought they were more in the range of the SR80i but since I find the SR60i more musical than the SR80i I'm not sure that is a compliment. :-) We also had a customer audition them recently and he felt they were close to his SR325is, but again that makes them less enjoyable than the SR125i in my book. While I didn't listen in depth in this mode I did also try them run active and I did not notice any real difference in musicality. With it on I was able to turn down an iPhone substantially and still listen at the same level so it does seem to work well. So, if you have use for or need of this functionality, they are the best of their type I have heard (although I admittedly haven't listened to many) and at least worth checking out.
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Post by doze84 »

I did the comparison, between the headphones mentioned above with the k420, and while I would prefer the sound and kind of less muddiness of the Pioneers, I would say there's more speed to the music in the K420, so that's probably better "tune dem" i hear..
I want to raise the volym of the Pioneers to get that music out of them that I hear in the k420, but when I raise the volyme I dont get what I hope for..

To bad I hate the k420, ugly and just too open..:)

I'll keep looking for a rs2 or sr125, or something else:)
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Post by lejonklou »

I've got two headphone questions:

Has anyone given the sealed AKG K550's a listen?

Has anyone made a direct comparison between AKG K701 (or K702 or Q701) and any of Grado's models (for example the SR125i's that Thomas OK recommends above)?
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