Tune Dem of Headphones

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

Post Reply
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Tune Dem of Headphones

Post by Charlie1 »

Has anyone had the opportunity to Tune Dem any headphones?

I currently have Sennheiser HD650s which I have already decided are not a very good match for my system and my father-in-law has agreed to purchase.

I'm particularly interested in Grado headphones, perhaps the SR-225s, but any feedback would be useful.

Thanks, Charlie.
User avatar
bbyte
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 72
Joined: 2007-09-05 22:54
Location: Poland.

Post by bbyte »

I've would reccomend the Grado headphones. Using SR-60 with Majik CD & Kontrol was very good and in terms in tune-dem there was better than Sennheiser or BeyerDynamic ones. Now I'm happy with Naim headamp combo used with my Linn. Pure Majik!
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks for the feedback bbtye - very useful.

I wanted to buy the HD650s online because the savings are considerable (nearly 50% off retail), but I didn't want to listen in a shop knowing full well I wasn't going to buy from their store. I was confident my father-in-law would buy the Senn's for close to what I paid if I didn't like them, but this time around I'll have to be more careful. I'll probably have to buy from a shop and Tune Dem them (at home if possible). Thanks once again - this will help narrow down my choices.
dlorde
Member
Member
Posts: 19
Joined: 2007-12-19 02:03
Location: UK

Post by dlorde »

I have a system with Unidisk SC, with AV5125 amps driving active Akurate 212s, with a sub and an Audyssey Multi-EQ to smooth out some troublesome bass modes.

I have had Sennheiser 650s (running from the SC via a Graham Slee Solo amp), for some time and I've found them a little too heavy in the bass for most of my listening, which tends to be classical/jazz/world (but they're great for listening to The Darkness after a late night at the pub). In general, the bass seems to overshadow or even overwhelm the mid-range, causing some loss of detail, which makes the tune harder to follow, particularly in complex orchestral peices. I find the 650s to be somewhat less tuneful than my main system.

Recently, I got the Sony MDR SA5000 'phones, which have a very similar spec, but claim to be designed to make the most of high-quality source material such as SACDs. They do sound quite different to the 650s - less bass weight, but tighter and faster, with more drum 'slam' and more treble emphasis. This makes them a much better match for my main system, and to my ears, superior to the 650s on tune-dem.

However, this increased resolution and treble emphasis makes them very unforgiving of poor material - recordings with unintentional distortion or other defects can be painful to listen to, as you can hear every grating detail. The 650s on the other hand, with their bass over treble emphasis are much more forgiving of this kind of material, and would be my choice for lower quality recordings.

Having said all that, the the 650s are very high quality headphones, and I don't mean to make them sound 'worse' than the SA5000s - it's just that my particular listening preferences are generally for a less dominant, tighter bass and an extended treble - more like the Akurate 212s.
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

I haven't done a lot of headphone comparisons but I have been quite happy with the Grados we sell at the store. I had a customer come in with a pair of Sennheiser HD650s which he wasn't very happy with. He had bought them on the basis of reviews and because he already owned 580s but he didn't like them as well as the 580s. When he brought them in we compared them to the Grado SR225 (one of my favorites) and both felt the Grados were much better.

The Grados I like best for the money are the SR60, SR225 and RS2. The GS1000 is also quite good but at $1000US it should be!
Linnofil
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 343
Joined: 2007-02-05 22:22
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Post by Linnofil »

I have tried the 650's myself at home and I didn't like them at all. Very nice sound, but boring music. These were brand new and they may improve a lot with som burn in. I used the built in headphone amp on my Majik k.

But the AKG k24P discussed here: http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=318#318 I think are a lot better and they cost only $40-50!

The best headphone amp I have heard (not many) have been the Linn (Knekt) Line receiver. Alot better than listening directly to the headphone output on the Majik Kontrol! Grado is usually a good bet when it comes to headphones, so give them a try and let us know.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks for the feedback guys.
In general, the bass seems to overshadow or even overwhelm the mid-range, causing some loss of detail, which makes the tune harder to follow, particularly in complex orchestral peices. I find the 650s to be somewhat less tuneful than my main system.
dlorde, I know what you mean - it can be a bit intrusive. There's an exciting graph (not!) somewhere on the web showing that the HD650 has increased bass response over the older HD600.
I also found my system more tuneful - quite noticeably so.
The Grados I like best for the money are the SR60, SR225 and RS2.
ThomasOK, I'll definitely put these two on my list. The SR60s sound like a real bargin for the money.
The best headphone amp I have heard (not many) have been the Linn (Knekt) Line receiver. Alot better than listening directly to the headphone output on the Majik Kontrol!
Linnofil, interesting to hear about the Majik Kontrol. I've also been using this instead of dedicated headphone amp. Perhaps I should go for a cheaper pair of headphones and buy a low cost headphone amp as well (maybe 2nd hand)? I start a new job after Xmas, so I'll have other things on my mind for a while, but will report back when I have news.
Linnofil
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 343
Joined: 2007-02-05 22:22
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Post by Linnofil »

Charlie1 wrote:Linnofil, interesting to hear about the Majik Kontrol. I've also been using this instead of dedicated headphone amp. Perhaps I should go for a cheaper pair of headphones and buy a low cost headphone amp as well (maybe 2nd hand)?
I think I should point out that the Majik Kontrol isn't bad at all. In fact I think it's pretty good. Especially since I modified it to the better. For free! :mrgreen:

This is a stock (mine before mod) Majik Kontrol: http://forum.selleri.de/download.php?id=205

This is how the cable from the mainboard to the headphone outlet should look when turned 1080 degrees (3 turns in my Majik K. after mod): http://forum.selleri.de/download.php?id=207 Don't twist it more than three times, since this makes it sound worse!

If you listen to LP you may want to try the four different directions for the connecting pins to the phonoboard, while you have the Majik Kontrol open. Only one direction is the best! This is the connector I'm talking about: http://forum.selleri.de/download.php?id=206

So the Majik is good and I don't think it's going to be bettered by a cheap headphone amp. But with the Line Receiver you go from good to a lot better! This is how the setup would look in your case. The Majik Kontrol is set to driver in the user setting and a Basik IR RCU + Linn remote is used to control the system and the volume for the headphones. http://forum.selleri.de/download.php?id=683

When it comes to headphones (and all things in general!) cheaper does not equal worse (in performance, tunedem wise). Try the AKG K24P before they go out of the market, they are on their way as we speak! (I don't know if the replacements will be as good.)
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Wow, thanks Linnofil. I've never ventured into the world of modification, but am interested by these tweaks.

I probably won't have a chance to properly investigate until after Christmas. The two changes are not entirely clear to me yet, but hopefully that will change once I lift the lid on my Majik Kontrol and see for myself. Does either mod require re-soldering of connections as I would not feel confident to do this and would worry that I'd break something?

Thanks for the diagram on the Knekt Line Receiver. I'm not familiar with this kit, but I think I understand. It's something I will bare in mind as a future upgrade.

I'll probably spend less money on headphones than before, so I just need to get myself to a shop with a good collection, and I'll try to listen to the AKG K24P if at all possible. I will definitely Tune Dem between models - no doubt the retailer will wonder what on earth I'm doing!

Thanks once again Linnofil - you've been very helpful. If you celebrate Christmas, then best wishes for a festive time.

Kind Regards, Charlie.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Hi Linnofil,

Had some spare time after all so I dug out my anti-static mat and applied both mods. They were very easy in the end - definitely no soldering required!!! :lol:

I don't have any headphones to test the first mod with, but can always undo it once I buy a pair - should I ever want to check the difference.

Have changed the phono connector to another orientation. Will have to Tune Dem it another time, but at least I know what to do now.

Thanks again, Charlie.

PS Are there any simple mods I can make to my 6100 (i.e. without re-soldering)? :P
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote:I will definitely Tune Dem between models - no doubt the retailer will wonder what on earth I'm doing!
No he won't! You are just comparing the sound of them, that seems rather normal. :mrgreen:

I have bought 2 pairs of AKG K24P thanks to the tip from Linnofil. They are actually very nice sounding. I like the Grados that Thomas mention, too (the SR60 is good but I don't find the SR225 so much better that it justifies the price difference). I haven't compared the Grados to these AKG:s yet, but I suspect I might actually prefer the AKG:s. Just guessing, though!
Charlie1 wrote:Are there any simple mods I can make to my 6100 (i.e. without re-soldering)? :P
Yes, probably. Are you using the internal links between channels? These cables (the original ones, supplied by Linn) are directional, but unmarked. You should check them one by one, listening for the most tuneful and melodically flowing direction. The other direction will be more akward and tiring (perhaps more dramatic, but tiring and more difficult to understand - change music if you are uncertain). You then make sure they are twisted exactly 7.5 turns - this actually makes a bigger difference than the directionality. Always connect them so that the interconnect from the preamp goes to the treble unit and then the internal link goes to the mid channel and from the mid to the bass.

One other thing - simple but effective - is to remove the cable between the 2 circuit boards, read about it (in the last post that I wrote) here:
http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopi ... 8&start=20

Merry Christmas to All!!
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks for headphone feedback. For the sake of £20 I might just take the plunge and get the AKGs.
The internal links in my 6100 currently have 9.5 turns - is that what you would expect or have you seen them with just untwisted pairs in the past? Just to confirm I'm looking in the right place, there are 4 links on my 6100 which are all located at the rear below the speaker terminals - 2 links per side?
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

The internal links (red/black) are just tightly twisted and have always been so. That results in something close to what you mention; 8-10 turns. Change it to 7.5 turns! Then try their directionality, one by one. You don't have to separate the black and red wires to change their individual direction - just reverse the entire cable. Make sure the connectors are pushed fully in and take antistatic precautions!

You must be looking at the right cables, there is nothing else there, except for that link between right and left boards that I suggest you unplug in one end.

Please keep us posted on the headphones and these small (but free) improvements! :)
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Just finished it all. Wow :shock: - I can't believe I could actually hear the difference in link direction. Of all the suggested mods, this was the one I left until last fearing I would be unable to do it, but to my amazement I could, even though it was a subtle difference.
You should check them one by one, listening for the most tuneful and melodically flowing direction. The other direction will be more akward and tiring (perhaps more dramatic, but tiring and more difficult to understand
I thought this was spot on and really helped. Of the four links, only the last one I checked was incorrect. I checked it with three unknown pieces before I was happy - each one indicated that the original direction was wrong.

As for the other mods; 1.) disconnecting the link between left and right boards, 2.) changing the links to 7.5 twists on all 4 links, and 3.) finding the best orientation for the connector in the phono board of my Majik Kontrol. These have all done as suggested, i.e. opened up the sound and aided tunefulness as well. I've particularly noticed a Hi-fi improvement in cymbals.

Anyway, I'm very pleased :) , so thank you both Mr Lejonklou and Linnofil for your patience and help.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Had a bit longer to identify the changes. Something subtle but positive has happened. It's as if the system is all now pulling in the same direction and not fighting with itself. It's easier to listen to, as if a small source of irritation has been removed. Maybe it's just my own imagination because I know that one of the links was facing the opposite direction, but this is how it seems.
PS Happy New Year everyone.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Returning to the original topic of headphones, I decided to give the AKG K24P's a go as I've not been listening to headphones as much as I anticipated and didn't want to invest so much this time around. I managed to find them online for as little as £20 and was happy to purchase without an audition. I received a pair of the K24P's over a week ago and have been constantly running them in on a portable system.
Already, I'm very happy with their performance. The only issue has been one of comfort as they were very tight. I've had to resort to bending the frame outwards a little to cope with my (apparently) enormous head, but they're fine now. Even with this highly technical modification, comfort is obviously not in the same league as the HD650s, but for £20, they are absolutely fine.
As for their sound, I no longer have the HD650s at hand to Tune Dem against, but they are certainly much more to my liking and I find them a good deal more involving. I can't really fault their overall balance in any way and I find them well matched to my all-Linn system (connected into Majik Kontrol).
Out of interest, I did Tune Dem them against my Aktiv Ninka's to find that they were well below the performance of my Linn speakers, but then so were the £319 Sennheisers, so this should not be held against the AKGs.
Regardless of price, I can happily pass on the recommendation. However, when considering their extremely low price, they are without doubt the best Hi-Fi bargain I've ever owned.
Many thanks to Linnofil for recommending them in the first place!
PS to reiterate Linnofil's warning, they have recently been replaced by the K412P, so availability is limited.
Linnofil
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 343
Joined: 2007-02-05 22:22
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Post by Linnofil »

Hi Charlie!

Great to hear that you have been succesful in all your "mods" and getting the AKG's. I have also tried the HD650's and they where not at all as tuneful as the AKG´s. Despite the hefty pricetag! I have also bended my AKG's to fit my thick skull! (It's so thick that all ideas of "cost balanced systems" will never penetrate! 8) )

I guess you haven't redone the "headphone outlet cable twist" trick? Just listening to music is always an option to tweaking! :mrgreen:

It's very gratifying to help out a fellow Linnie and make a system better! Especially if it's free and/or very low cost. Good work and great to hear your feedback and satisfaction.
Per A
Active member
Active member
Posts: 165
Joined: 2007-08-13 10:10

Senns need a good amp

Post by Per A »

I want to comment on Sennheiser phones. I bought a pair of HD600 when I had a LK1 preamp and I used the rec out but they were quite boring and they lay in their box for some time.
When I started commuting by train I found out about headphone amps and got a small Headroom to go with a cdp. On Headroom's webpage I got curious about their bigger stuff and when I found a demo Max for half its new price I bought it but not before testing some others, Musical Fidelity, Rega and a German thing I forget its name now but none came close to the Max. I am not sure what I prefer, my active Katans or the headphones. Now there is a new generation of their amps with dacs and balanced cables probably even better.
I think HD600&650 needs a separate amp to shine.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Hi Per A. My HD650s Tune Dem'd like an old fish and were pretty dull musically, but that was through a Majik Kontrol, so you maybe right about them needing a dedicated amp.
I know it's not really what you're asking about, but I was only thinking the other day what a great buy the AKG K24P's were. I have absolutely no desire to replace them or upgrade. They were as cheap as chips and sound great - enough bass for me and super fast, plus they don't need a dedicated amp. It's another option anyway, plus save yourself a ton of money and perhaps put it to good use elsewhere in your system. Besides, if they're not up to the job, you'll have only spent £20!
Per A
Active member
Active member
Posts: 165
Joined: 2007-08-13 10:10

Post by Per A »

Hi Charlie1,

I see what you mean, it is just that I have learnt that "source first" applies to headphones as well. And perhaps coupling the best Sennheisers to the normal phone jack is like driving say Komris with Majik where you might be happier with Akurate and Chakras and Katans?

I have tried my son's KossPortaPros with the Max and they didn't sound any better than with his Ipod so it is also a matter of "synergy".

I sometimes consider selling my amps and speakers to improve on source e.g. Keel, DS and then start all over again with other amps and speakers.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Linnofil wrote:So the Majik is good and I don't think it's going to be bettered by a cheap headphone amp. But with the Line Receiver you go from good to a lot better! This is how the setup would look in your case. The Majik Kontrol is set to driver in the user setting and a Basik IR RCU + Linn remote is used to control the system and the volume for the headphones. http://forum.selleri.de/download.php?id=683
Only 4 years later to check this out, but can anyone explain in a bit more detail how Linnofil is suggesting the Knekt be user, as the link no longer works. Can I do this direct from the second set of Linto outputs? Also note that I am now using the Kikkin, so no KK.

I am using an old Kenwood tape deck at the moment, so am considering either the Rega Ear for about £150, but would look at some old Linn kit if it wasn't too expensive.

Only then will I look at some better headphones than the AKG K24P's, but if anyone has made any progress in subsequent years, reference finding more tuneful headphones (preferably with better sound and comfort), then would be great to get your feedback.
malpa
Member
Member
Posts: 12
Joined: 2011-05-27 08:24
Location: london

superlux hd668b headphones

Post by malpa »

...i would recommend superlux hd668b headphones,...they are really cheap and fantastic headphones,....this guys care about a great sound ...not just the brand name.
...check some reviews, i just bought them and im quite shocked.
best.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks for the tip Malpa - never heard of them before, but they look comfortable and at that price, I might take a punt. The 3m cord is also useful as my existing headphones have very short cords, not ideal for hi-fi listening.
malpa
Member
Member
Posts: 12
Joined: 2011-05-27 08:24
Location: london

superlux

Post by malpa »

no problem, as i said check some reviews, i paid 32 pounds on ebay and they are well worth the money, yesterday i compared them to bose headphones 140 pounds and the difference was massive, the clarity and the neutral sound of superlux is just fantastic.
its almost like having my linn system on my ears.
and you cant go wrong for 32 ponds.
let us know if you like it, best.
User avatar
doze84
Active member
Active member
Posts: 103
Joined: 2009-05-21 13:09
Location: Östersund(Sweden)
Contact:

Post by doze84 »

If you could find a pair of Pioneer se-m280, they are in my opinion even more musical than akg k420p same price range. Out of stock everywhere though..
Post Reply