Why ALL that difference between two DS?

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Kalle
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Why ALL that difference between two DS?

Post by Kalle » 2013-10-21 16:57

Hello all,
I recently had the opportunity to A/B test a KDSM and a ADSM in my homesystem, made of two 4200/D and two Aktiv (and glorious) Keltiks (silvers and double k400 per speaker cables).
Being an amateur bass player I am used to pay attention and hear differences between systems overall sound and individual instruments tone (normally in shops dedicated rooms).
But this time I was really surprised.
By testing the systems with Me'shell 'Ndegeocello's track "Don't let me be misunderstood" from her latest album dedicated to Nina Simone (Linn 24bit) I have noticed that there is a very "defined" and "in you face" keyboard part at the beginning of the song that is perfectly audible through the KDS and absolutely ABSENT with the ADS.
I mean, is is not "less defined","difficult to follow" "foggy in the background" or "too many kids" etc...
I simply CANNOT hear that instrument that is really "cutting the mix" with the KDS.
Did anyone ever heard this kind of radical difference ?
(Forgive my English)
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Post by ChrBea » 2013-10-22 09:30

Hello Kalle,
was the ADSM connected correctly? Can't belief that an instrument can't be heard at all.
I am downloading that album right now from Linn. Will check this evening if I can hear the keyboard or not.
Maybe someone else is faster though :)

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Post by Kalle » 2013-10-22 14:32

Hi ChrBea,
what I did was only to switch the Linn silvers from the KDSM to the ADS/1/D (not an M I made a mistake).
The ADS has been working really good, consider that when I upgraded to that it just blew away my old MDSM..

I cannot forgive myself not to try to use the ADS as a source for the KDSM, but had no other silvers available..
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Post by ChrBea » 2013-10-22 21:31

My family was at home tonight, so I could only listen to the track at volume 35. To be honest, on my Akurate system, I didn't hear a keyboard at all. As I do not have a Klimax (or Renew) yet I couldn't compare. Maybe I will find some time next week to relisten to that song on a friend's KDSM.
I know this sounds a little insane, but are you sure you listened to the same track, as the song following that track on the album has a very defined keyboard at the beginning.
My apologies for suggesting this, but I cannot believe either that a whole instrument is lacking on an Akurate-level system.
Maybe someone else here on the forum with a better system can enlighten this mystery.

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Post by Kalle » 2013-10-22 22:59

I had the same doubt :)
Bring your ads with you and you will be surprised...
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Post by flojo » 2013-10-24 11:36

After bass drums enter on 'Please don't let me misunderstood', the keyboard is there on my Majik DS.

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Post by Music Lover » 2013-10-24 15:43

This scenario is often happening.
My take is the following. The brain is so occupied analyzing the sound it misses out a few items (CPU overload) or simply avoid analyzing some (selection).
More thoughts to follow tonight
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Post by ChrBea » 2013-10-24 17:33

Listened again to the track and heard the keyboard as described by flojo too. Misinterpreted "beginning" and paid no attention to what followed.
But it definitely isn't as direct, as described by Kalle. But then again, Klimax should reveal all details (and mistakes) present in a recording.
It's definitely easier to hear when not paying attention to it. I interpreted Music Lover's comment by overclocking my CPU with some excellent Morey-Saint-Denis (2005).

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Post by Music Lover » 2013-10-24 20:26

Compare with the vision:
10GB/s data hits the retina
6 MB/s hits nerve
10 KB/s hits the visual cortex
100 b/s is what we actually observe

So a LOT of information hitting the body, information that we don't notice.
The human body is a master of filtering, selecting the most important info.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Post by tokenbrit » 2013-10-25 02:32

Music Lover wrote:Compare with the vision:
10GB/s data hits the retina
6 MB/s hits nerve
10 KB/s hits the visual cortex
100 b/s is what we actually observe

So a LOT of information hitting the body, information that we don't notice.
The human body is a master of filtering, selecting the most important info.
Is that a real indication of the orders of magnitude of filtering or just some b/s? ;)

Interesting also is that the filtering is quite variable and what's selected as the most important info can change from one pass to the next - maybe this is the heart of tunedem: when the total is presented in a way that makes for less filtering; more info is selected consciously or subconsciously, as the data hits in a way that's coherent so the 'CPU overload' threshold is higher :)

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Post by usjaz » 2013-10-25 07:12

Great CD, thanks for leading me finding it.
Klimax RDS -> Kisto -> Klimax Solo/D -> 350P & REL B1
Oppo 103 -> M6100/D -> M140, M112, 2xC102

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Post by Efraim roots » 2013-10-25 09:59

Is that a real indication of the orders of magnitude of filtering or just some b/s? ;)
He's saying something, and it's not something about correct numbers.
the players of instruments shall be there..

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Post by Kalle » 2013-10-25 12:02

usjaz wrote:Great CD, thanks for leading me finding it.
Glad you like, that CD is one of my "best 10" of the last 5 years :)
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Post by Kalle » 2013-10-25 12:10

Hello all and thanks for your replies, interest, suggestions, numbers and love for music :)
This evening I am going to check exactly the time of the track for the keyboard I mean because there can be also more than one (Me'Shell cane be really tricky).
Believe me I am quite sure it is not a matter of my brain elaborating details, I have also compelled my girlfriend to make a blind test herself (and yes, when she saw me arriving with the bandage she was a bit "nervous")
May I ask who has tested which speakers/amps are they using?
I have made also a test with the ADS and a pair of active ATC100ASL, and with those speakers I can hear the keyboard even if not as good as with the Keltiks/4200D and the KDSM (much better IMHO).
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Post by flojo » 2013-10-25 13:42

Kalle wrote:May I ask who has tested which speakers/amps are they using?
MDS, tuned 5103, Linn silvers, LK140s and activ Keilidhs. And I used the 16 bit flac version, not 24.

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Post by Kalle » 2013-10-25 14:05

flojo wrote:
Kalle wrote:May I ask who has tested which speakers/amps are they using?
MDS, tuned 5103, Linn silvers, LK140s and activ Keilidhs. And I used the 16 bit flac version, not 24.
Thanks!
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Post by ChrBea » 2013-10-25 15:42

ADS/O and MDSM - Linn Silver - C4200 (only the 2 best sounding amps used) - K400 - Linn Majik 140

http://bit.ly/Hgj8ou - 24bit FLAC

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Post by Erik » 2013-10-25 16:41

A slightly different price model:

Naive

/Erik

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Post by Music Lover » 2013-10-25 21:52

Efraim roots wrote:
Is that a real indication of the orders of magnitude of filtering or just some b/s? ;)
He's saying something, and it's not something about correct numbers.
To be honset I'm getting quite dissapointed that you have this view.
Following this forum, you should know I doesn't write anything not thoroghly tested or anything I just made up.
I post when I think it will increase the common knowledge base of the forum.

The information is from a well established brain scientist I was lucky to hear in a seminar last spring.
She is a scientist and science journalist, with special interest in cognitive and social neuroscience.
Marie Ryd, PhD and former scientist at the Karolinska Institute, is the founder and chief editor of Holone, a publication targeting professional life and those who want to stay updated with social and cognitive neurosciences. Marie has been practicing meditation for 25 years and became thrilled by the connection between contemplative practices and neurocognition. Today she is a frequently demanded lecturer on both mindfulness and neuroleadership. She is a trained instructor in mindfulness by Ola Schenström.
http://www.mindhousepark.org/workshops/ ... -2013__267
It's all about musical understanding!

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Post by Music Lover » 2013-10-25 21:58

Kalle wrote: I have made also a test with the ADS and a pair of active ATC100ASL, and with those speakers I can hear the keyboard even if not as good as with the Keltiks/4200D and the KDSM (much better IMHO).
Well...if you play same tune many times, your brain will "learn" and you risk it will interpret the recieved information adding/guessing (fill in missing info)
Of that reason I recommend using unknown music for evaluation. Unless you are very experienced in tune dem!
It's all about musical understanding!

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Post by Efraim roots » 2013-10-25 22:33

Music Lover:

To be honset I'm getting quite dissapointed that you have this view.
Well I just wanted to make a point about that the exact numbers maybe wasn't the most important in your post. Personally I'm not very interested in correct numbers but much more in the meaning of someones reasoning. But of course a good source is crucial, as usual :-)

Personally I would be disappointed if someone misses my point just because my numbers is roughly estimated when I'm actually trying to say something.
the players of instruments shall be there..

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Post by Kalle » 2013-10-26 09:29

The keyboard starts at 00:24, I can hear it using good headphones, but still disappears on the ADS, I would love i can record this.
I forgot to say that the file is a FLAC ( I normally use ALAC), maybe this can help someone find an answer...
In the meantime I will try converting it into ALAC to see if there is any difference...
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Post by Kalle » 2013-10-26 09:42

No difference with the file conversion, 2 friends confirmed they hear the keyboard using the headphones while not when using the DS...
This is really confusing me, even if not the best one it is still a "lot of money" player.
Anyone from Linn can help?
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Post by tokenbrit » 2013-10-26 14:16

Kalle wrote:No difference with the file conversion, 2 friends confirmed they hear the keyboard using the headphones while not when using the DS...
This is really confusing me, even if not the best one it is still a "lot of money" player.
Anyone from Linn can help?
Not sure if you've confirmed but expect from your signature that the Keltiks are aktiv and you're using the digital volume control in the DS. Since you can hear the keyboard on headphones that suggests you DS is OK and that you should review your amps & speakers

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Post by Music Lover » 2013-10-26 14:41

tokenbrit wrote: Not sure if you've confirmed but expect from your signature that the Keltiks are aktiv
Yes, as most Keltiks ;)
It's all about musical understanding!

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