donuk wrote: But, and here's the big "but" I have met people who profess to be tunedemmers who delude themselves, and produce such a bad system that our cat would get up and go out of the room.
This is an interesting topic. (but off topic in this thread)
In the old days, when Ivor was VERY detailed about how Linn dealers should demo Linn equipment and how they should use Tune Dem...most if not all customers had good sounding systems and agree on product hierarchy.
donuk wrote:
I have met Fredrick, I love his products, and I do my best to promote his products - I recently had a local dealer friend admiring my Tundra 2. But there is no forum where I can discuss Lejonklou products where my views will be respected.
This is the forum. You going to get respect from me, and very likely from most of the others.
So KDSM/2 is better than KDSM/1 as an Exakt source component. I wonder what non-DAC elements have changed in the Katalyst implementation that delivers this change? I may ask that question in the other place. Unfortunately, in the past, the techs over there have been restricted by marketing from admitting that an Exakt source component can sound different even though it can be demonstrated and they will discuss it openly face to face.
It is still the case that the source component in this case delivers very small changes compared to the Exaktbox DAC component. Using percentages purely as a relative measure to illustrate the point and not as any kind of realistic measure, if KDSM/1 delivers 97% of the information and KDSM/2 delivers 98% of the information but Akurate Exaktbox translates 90% onwards and Klimax Exaktbox translates 95% onwards, I'd be upgrading the Exaktbox first. This is borne out in demos too.
Music Lover wrote:
Conclusion #1
It's not only the DAC that is important för overall performance.
Linn have used same DAC since 2007 in Majik, Akurate and Klimax DS-products. (Wolfson WM8741)
Still every one of these geting better for each generation and competitors using same DAC is less good.
Conclusion #2
The implantation and overall optimisation is crucial, and more important than the DAC.
Yes,
interesting that Linn made a cut with Katalyst and use now one AKM AK4497 per channel as DAC chip.
Matt
Matt
MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
sunbeamgls wrote:
It is still the case that the source component in this case delivers very small changes compared to the Exaktbox DAC component.
Imho, the interesting question is...how much performance could be gained if Linn focused on "source first" and optimised the first equipment in the hierarchy (KDSM Exakt) and not the following (Exaktbox).
sunbeamgls wrote:
It is still the case that the source component in this case delivers very small changes compared to the Exaktbox DAC component.
Imho, the interesting question is...how much performance could be gained if Linn focused on "source first" and optimised the first equipment in the hierarchy (KDSM Exakt) and not the following (Exaktbox).
Possibly diminishing returns. Getting the 98% to 99% may take a lot more work and innovation (possibly technology that doesn't exist yet, rather like the new DAC didn't exist until recently) compared to getting the 95% to 98% (again, purely random numbers to illustrate a point). It would be good to see them tackle USB as an option, if it doesn't screw up the Ethernet performance.
I found the Katalyst Klimax passive system different in presentation to Akurate Exakt, but pretty much on even terms musically. Just that the Exakt system does all the non-Tune Method stuff far better.
sunbeamgls wrote:
It is still the case that the source component in this case delivers very small changes compared to the Exaktbox DAC component.
Imho, the interesting question is...how much performance could be gained if Linn focused on "source first" and optimised the first equipment in the hierarchy (KDSM Exakt) and not the following (Exaktbox).
Haven't you just said that KDSM/2 sounds better than KDSM/2 as an Exakt source? Isn't that investing in the first step in the home part of the source? Or do you want them to go back one step further and address how the data gets to the Linn device?
Possibly diminishing returns. Getting the 98% to 99% may take a lot more work and innovation (possibly technology that doesn't exist yet, rather like the new DAC didn't exist until recently) compared to getting the 95% to 98% (again, purely random numbers to illustrate a point). It would be good to see them tackle USB as an option, if it doesn't screw up the Ethernet performance.
I found the Katalyst Klimax passive system different in presentation to Akurate Exakt, but pretty much on even terms musically. Just that the Exakt system does all the non-Tune Method stuff far better.
sunbeamgls wrote:
It is still the case that the source component in this case delivers very small changes compared to the Exaktbox DAC component.
Imho, the interesting question is...how much performance could be gained if Linn focused on "source first" and optimised the first equipment in the hierarchy (KDSM Exakt) and not the following (Exaktbox).
This is exactly why I feel that linn should produce a Melco type product. The difference between a standard NAS and the middle Melco is possibly as big as the difference between a Majik DS and a Klimax, and it's a £10,000 cheaper upgrade!
NB I haven't compared a Melco N1HZ/Majik DS to a computer NAS/KDS, and I wouldn't like to guess which combination would produce the best sound. My point is that there's a huge difference between a computer NAS and a specialist NAS.
It's only just occurred to me that a NAS would be a great first digital product for Lejonklou. It would get more Lejonklou products into Linn systems and open up a route for a future streamer. Do it quick, before whoever at Linn made the decision to tell their customers that NAS's don't affect the sound is sacked, and Linn start producing one of their own!
sunbeamgls wrote:
It is still the case that the source component in this case delivers very small changes compared to the Exaktbox DAC component.
Imho, the interesting question is...how much performance could be gained if Linn focused on "source first" and optimised the first equipment in the hierarchy (KDSM Exakt) and not the following (Exaktbox).
Possibly diminishing returns. Getting the 98% to 99% may take a lot more work and innovation (possibly technology that doesn't exist yet, rather like the new DAC didn't exist until recently) compared to getting the 95% to 98% (again, purely random numbers to illustrate a point). It would be good to see them tackle USB as an option, if it doesn't screw up the Ethernet performance.
I found the Katalyst Klimax passive system different in presentation to Akurate Exakt, but pretty much on even terms musically. Just that the Exakt system does all the non-Tune Method stuff far better.
Just to clarify a point, I absolutely lurve all the non rhythm and tunes stuff too! Getting improvements in those areas is right up there, at number 2, in the list of Great HiFi requirements. It's so important, I'd put it above one of my other requirements - great aesthetic design. I won't mention my number one requirement again - that really would be boring!
Spannko wrote:It's only just occurred to me that a NAS would be a great first digital product for Lejonklou. It would get more Lejonklou products into Linn systems and open up a route for a future streamer. Do it quick, before whoever at Linn made the decision to tell their customers that NAS's don't affect the sound is sacked, and Linn start producing one of their own!
I am not sure whether Fredriks upcoming digital system is relying on ethernet and not convinced that the Linn approach with sending the music from a NAS to a DS via ethernet is the best for musical performance.
The alternative would be to have a very good server/computer with storage for music files and a direct connection to a DAC.
Anyway, IMO Fredriks solution this year will be most interesting.
Matt
Matt
MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
Spannko wrote:It's only just occurred to me that a NAS would be a great first digital product for Lejonklou. It would get more Lejonklou products into Linn systems and open up a route for a future streamer. Do it quick, before whoever at Linn made the decision to tell their customers that NAS's don't affect the sound is sacked, and Linn start producing one of their own!
I am not sure whether Fredriks upcoming digital system is relying on ethernet and not convinced that the Linn approach with sending the music from a NAS to a DS via ethernet is the best for musical performance.
The alternative would be to have a very good server/computer with storage for music files and a direct connection to a DAC.
Anyway, IMO Fredriks solution this year will be most interesting.
Matt
Melco and Zenith options that I know of. There are probably more.
Reduced to the bare bone Exakt is an active speaker system with a digital filter. Like all active speaker systems it puts too much weight and money at the end of the hierarchy chain.
Matt
Last edited by matthias on 2017-02-21 06:20, edited 1 time in total.
Matt
MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
What an interesting thread! So very interesting to problematise 'Tune dem' and 'source first' as core principles of music reproduction. So very interesting that Exakt clearly created such shockwaves when it came. The last fifteen years I have not listened to Hifi. My greatest passion, as it was, but my Linn system was in my cellar from 2004-2019. I have also been completely ignorant to what's been going on in HiFi during the intervening years. Last Saturday I visited my old Linn dealer to listen to a Linn system that, in development terms, is 20+ years ahead of my last one (LP12/Lingo/Akito/Ikemi/Majik/Keilidh). I listened to a 530 system (very musical in my view), a Klimax DS system (as part of a passive system), and an ALP12 through a 520 system. With the exception of the LP12, it was HiFi technology I have never heard before and, up until a few weeks ago, never heard of. And, with the exception of the LP12, it is frankly difficult for me to articulate much about what I experienced. In fact the only thing that was unequivocal for me, and not only for me, but also for my wife who has no specific 'HiFi history', was when we listened to the ALP12 through a 520 system. We were both astonished. Amazed. An analogue source, digitised and then fed into exakt speakers. Stepping forward 20 years, my experience of musical reproduction in that moment was more. Irrespective of the technology, of all the different pieces put together, it was, as a whole, more, and unequivocally so in my experience. The whole musical experience, and how we value that in relation to other musical experiences, surely that then is the essence? I admire 'Tune dem' and 'source first' as tools that can guide us in striving towards new heights of musical experience; they have after all guided Linn as well as my Linn dealer in reaching new heights. But to view them as absolutes, as universal laws that cannot be problematised, we risk forgetting the subjectiveness of the entire enterprise. For myself, I can think I am applying 'tune dem' when I am setting up or tweaking my system, but the truth is, I'm not entirely sure I'm following the 'tune dem' principle, even if I think I might be. One thing that is unequivocal however, is the value to me, personally, of the whole musical experience. If the value that experience has for me is enhanced, then it IS more, whatever MORE may be.
I think your great post deserves some response PaulC! :-)
You have chosen the perfect time to audition Linn hifi again. So many things have changed.
With Katalyst Linn has made their Exact systems worth an audition. With the new Karousel bearing for the Sondek you are also in for a very different listening experience than the one coming from your old Sondek.
Only you can decide if “new” Linn is right for you.
If Linn has truely left the concept of tune dem and source first behind I fear they will sooner or later run out of rope (I do not believe they have).
The one question I have for any company making hifi is the following:
“ What makes the emotion in a musical performance come across to the listener? “.
beck wrote: ↑2020-07-07 16:50.If Linn has truely left the concept of tune dem and source first behind I fear they will sooner or later run out of rope (I do not believe they have).
Whether Linn have abandoned Tune Dem, or not, isn’t an easy question to answer. My belief is that they haven’t, but they seem to slip in some great sounding product every now and then, just to keep the HiFi people happy!
Unfortunately some of these upgrades are not optional ( Karousel being one example)and what is the 'best thing since sliced bread' for the many becomes a retrograde step musically for the few.
There is also a definite move to removing many of the options for analogue preamp/'single wire passive' people like me. This started off with preamps but we seem to be losing speakers as well.
At least they did a U turn with their KDS, so credit where it is due.
I suppose Linn have to look at profitability and one cannot be too critical if the market leads them firmly to pastures less musical.
We are however fortunate in the industry that we have so much choice and there are still great products out their, including many Linn ones.
beck wrote: ↑2020-07-07 16:50.If Linn has truely left the concept of tune dem and source first behind I fear they will sooner or later run out of rope (I do not believe they have).
Whether Linn have abandoned Tune Dem, or not, isn’t an easy question to answer.
Actually it’s easy to answer. They removed TD from their homepage.
After some years they reinserted the method, but in a revised ”hifi” verson.
