Exakt

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Charlie1
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Post by Charlie1 »

Azazello wrote:A digital RIAA in the EKDSM would make more sense to me :)
Seems like Linn is already thinking about it: -
At this time we are using the Urika, at this time the RIAA equalisation is performed in the analogue domain. The output of the Urika is digitised in the Klimax Exakt DSM.

The presentations highlight all the areas of loss within the chain. We have eliminated the analogue source switching, analogue volume control and analogue interconnections to the tunebox. The functions of the traditional analogue pre-amplifier are now all performed digitally.

The digitizing of our vinyl collections is an exciting prospect for the future. A number of functions need to be developed...

1: A high gain buffer to our new ADC topology to optimise the dynamic range of the ADC sensitivity for the cartridge.

2: RIAA equalisation would be best done in the digital domain. Urika tracks the ideal RIAA curve to +/- 0.1dB, with digital RIAA equalisation it would be possible to track RIAA precisely. Why stop with just RIAA, it would be possible to also support the TELDEC/DIN curves. Adjustable tone-arm cartridge resonance high pass filters.

3: There needs to be a mechanism for getting the PCM audio from the ADC to suitable ripping software. The ripping software is also the key for easy tagging of the files whether it is track by track or side A/B files.

Exciting times ahead.
http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread. ... #pid284452
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Post by Music Lover »

It's almost as we are back in the early 80s when the digital technology in the CD-player was the answer to all analogue drawbacks...

I admit I'm little surprised of the unlimited praise that suddenly Linn employees have.
I'm afraid it going to backfire.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by lejonklou »

Yes, I agree.

A statement such as "we have eliminated analogue volume control" is embarrasing when fact is that the analogue volume control of KK is more musical than any digital volume control presented so far. It's quite a big difference too. This constant tech talk makes me wonder if the focus is no longer on music.
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Post by rowlandhills »

David Williamson from Linn is clearly in agreement with that, as per this post a few minutes ago:

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread. ... #pid284699
As we are on the subject of auditioning the different sub-chassis, it is worth mentioning here is how to evaluate the differences between them.

It is very simple.
It is called Tune dem

I am sure that in the vast majority of posters on this forum I am preaching to the converted, however, it is absolutely vital (and therefore worth reiterating). It is used in everything we do in the development of products; from the number, material and shore hardness of rubber mounts on an Exakt 350 amp; cable direction in an internal power harness, side of a felt mat; type of screw to used etc. etc.

It is also a very useful tool for a customer to assess whether something is better, or just different.

Statements like "improved imaging"," bass was tauter", are irrelevant. Unless actually present when the recording was being made, one has no idea where the microphones were placed, how big the room was, where each of the band members are placed, etc. So without all that information all you can do is say whether it is easier to follow the tune, or not.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Yes, David has always seemed to be very much into Tune Method, probably Ian too, who worked on the Urika, Radikal & Dynamik electronics.

I've heard rumours some of the newer DS/software guys are not really interested in it though. I can imagine if someone is hired solely for their qualifications and knowledge, then they might not be into the whole Linn heritage of Tunedem and musicality. They might have a much more scientific goal. I think the way the DS guys work is to start with a scientific approach and develop along those lines. Then it's past to the 'tuners' afterwards, who are basically a group that does some listening comparisons. I am not 100% sure though. I'm not sure software goes anywhere near the 'tuners'.

I wonder what Gilad actually thinks. After all, he's the one driving Linn forward now.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Music Lover wrote:It's almost as we are back in the early 80s when the digital technology in the CD-player was the answer to all analogue drawbacks...
Exakt, perfect sound forever?
lejonklou wrote:A statement such as "we have eliminated analogue volume control" is embarrasing when fact is that the analogue volume control of KK is more musical than any digital volume control presented so far. It's quite a big difference too. This constant tech talk makes me wonder if the focus is no longer on music.
This was one of the things that bothered me about the announcement. In a reply to a question about the quality of digital vs. analog volume controls on the Linn forum one of the engineers stated that analog circuits add noise and distortion which the digital processing does not. A rare concentration on tech specs for Linn and a disappointing departure from Tune Dem.

I have been following the information on the Exakt launch with interest not being able to go to Scotland for the party or to Denver for the US launch at CEDIA (where our owner went yesterday but has yet to report back on). From a technological standpoint it certainly sounds interesting and I can see that it is possible that digital crossovers would allow you a higher level of precision in frequency and phase response, while also allowing the kinds of fine tuning and room correction Linn is employing. But does this precision outweigh the conversion of all inputs to 24/192 digital signals? I am certainly VERY leery of converting my LP12 to 24/192 before sending it to the speakers. Obviously the proof of the pudding will be in the listening, and so far most reports have been encouraging. I hope it is really good as I expect Linn will trickle it down to Akurate and Majik levels over the next couple of years. I don't see it replacing the current analog equipment altogether as its main application is obviously for Aktiv systems which, even for Linn, has to be a small percentage of the systems sold.

There does to seem to be a fair difference in philosophy between the digital engineers at Linn and the analog and mechanical guys. I hear more specs and belief in digital technology from that side and really only hear about things like tune method from the others. They also do seem to either not believe in the effects of the gear and connections feeding the DS or they just don't want to talk about it. As the digital engineers seem to be taking over more and more of the design work I fear for what the future may bring and am happy Fredrik is still taking analog to great heights. On the other hand the analog guys just came up with the Kandid which is a truly awesome cartridge. It pulls so much more information from the groove that it really smashes the Akiva (as unlikely as that seemed considering how good the Akiva was). Anybody interested in how much music there is in the groove really needs to hear one.

So, yeah, the future seems a bit uncertain.
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Post by tokenbrit »

(I freely admit that I haven't really read into the details, or followed the extended thread on the Linn fanroom / forum, much less heard an Exakt system... so this is totally opinion rather than experience)

There was such a case made for open standards at the heart of streaming and a clear understanding of what you were paying for between DSs at Klimax, Akurate, and Majik levels... Now we see a closed system with a proprietary protocol between 'front end' & Exakt engine. Hardly surprising, as it prevents anyone from severely undercutting Linn on price for likely little reduction in sound quality from digital signal processing before it hits the Exakt engine but, therefore, also hard to see how the justification for such a price differential between Exakt DS(M) at Klimax-, Akurate-, and Majik levels can be maintained.

We've had all the discussions about which DS firmware version is best, which rip to which file format, on which NAS, etc... almost every component in the digital chain, including cables & cable direction, none of which should make a difference to the 1s and 0s and, as such, shouldn't change the musical output of the system, but certainly appears to. Very little of this has been acknowledged by Linn, with even less explained...

Now we're invited to accept that digital is just inherently better than analogue, despite continuing improvements in the analogue domain, and further invited to spend an exhorbitant amount of money on an implementation of technology that really doesn't allow you to consider components from many other manufacturers, if any? And the resultant lack of an upgrade path from analogue separates to all-Linn Exakt is not a product line &/or 'business case' that I view as compelling, even if I could afford it.
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Post by ThomasOK »

I have to agree with most of what you say, Tokenbrit. The only question I have in regards to it is whether Linn will publish the full specifications for the Exakt Link so that other manufacturers can adopt the technology and make compatible products. Linn has said we would hear a lot more about Exakt Link in the white papers they are working on but I haven't seen a clear statement yet whether it will be open source. If not, I have to agree that it is about as closed a system as I can imagine: only an Exakt DSM can feed an Exakt speaker or crossover. For me what is even more questionable is that analog sources, of which Linn makes the best I've heard, only get to play by being digitized at 24/192. As I'm sure most know I'm not thrilled at my vinyl playback being digitized at all and only my DS source has any digital processing in it in my music listening system. If 24/192 is so good why is my LP12 still more musical than Studio Master rips?

The fact that part of the processing and the control functions are done in the DSM unit and the others are done in the speaker or crossover does mean that, for the first time for Linn, there is no interoperability with others products except for sources (and power amps on some speakers).
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Post by WIJI »

tokenbrit wrote: Now we're invited to accept that digital is just inherently better than analogue, despite continuing improvements in the analogue domain, and further invited to spend an exhorbitant amount of money on an implementation of technology that really doesn't allow you to consider components from many other manufacturers, if any? And the resultant lack of an upgrade path from analogue separates to all-Linn Exakt is not a product line &/or 'business case' that I view as compelling, even if I could afford it.
Spot on tokenbrit. I see the closed aspect of buying into the Exakt technology it's biggest weakness. I don't doubt it's performance, and I was lucky enough to hear it firsthand at the factory launch, but I'm not sure of it's place within the rest of Linn's product line.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Heard Exakt today. My expectations were not that high. They were not that low either, so kind of in the middle :)

It had just been delivered and fitted by Tony, except the arrays. Klimax box was stone cold. Tony reckons it as approx 70% of what it can deliver. I thought it was brilliant. Really great timing, totally on it, amazingly clean and clear sound - very lifelike. You can tell there is this great big chunk of distortion removed. Makes you feel there is nothing left to take away. Reminds me of when digital pop production made a clear step forward about 10-15 years ago, but even more so. Tony played a track off Phil Collins first album, which I'm very familiar with. It sounded fantastic, then I said not thinking 'and this is off your laptop - yeah?', 'no' he said, 'that's Spotify'. I couldn't believe it

Back to musicality, we didn't do any tune dem comparisons, but I'm familiar enough with Tony's setup. I can't be 100% sure Exakt will tune dem better than KDS1/KK1 etc, but if the superior timing and today's enjoyment are anything to go by, then I fully expect it will beat the old-school Klimax setup easily. I was really impressed. I actually felt that non-hifi people would hear this and not think we enthusiasts are bonkers with the amount of money we spend on kit

The LP12 like timing did make me question if a good digital file can match a 1st pressing LP, and think that perhaps old master tapes are not as worn as we fear. However, whilst the timing is right up there, I felt it wasn't quite as musical and would lose in a tune dem against good vinyl. Anyway, that's besides the point for most KDS/KK/350 owners. For them, I suspect this is a very easy dem indeed. Based on today, if I started out again in hi-fi with nothing and had £45k, then I'd buy Exakt instead of an LP12/KK/new LP collection etc
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Post by Lego »

I take it you'll be able to use exakt technology with old aktiv speakers as well!..might even get more musical results that way Charlie?..by all accounts I think Linn are finally starting to get the finger out ..I can hear it now 'My KDS sounds broken'..Great news
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Post by Charlie1 »

Lego wrote:I take it you'll be able to use exakt technology with old aktiv speakers as well!..might even get more musical results that way Charlie?..by all accounts I think Linn are finally starting to get the finger out ..I can hear it now 'My KDS sounds broken'..Great news
Hi Leo, I like the KDS. I've not really heard any other DS players properly. I don't think Exakt makes the KDS sound broken, but you're probably right and some will claim it does. Did you like any Linn CD players?
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Post by Lego »

Hi Charlie ..didn't really like any of their CD players ..although the magic playing an Elvis CD made me sit up. .tho that was more the recording which was on a mainly classical label ..the name escapes me ..don't know why as I stare at it every day on vinyl ..CD 12 was good but over priced ..exakt sounds promising ..especially the digitalized surface noise ..analogue to digital master to LP to digital back to analogue!? ..its turning into a soap ..which is nice
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Post by Charlie1 »

Lego wrote:Exakt sounds promising ..especially the digitalized surface noise ..analogue to digital master to LP to digital back to analogue!? ..its turning into a soap ..which is nice
Yes, the concept doesn't give me a warm fuzzy vinyl feeling, but I won't judge until I've heard it compared to an all analogue equivalent, which might be never. Not exaktly an easy dem to organise
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Post by Charlie1 »

Lego wrote:CD 12 was good but over priced
I suspect you would enjoy a well setup KDS. I heard it in Tony's setup against CD12 and it made the latter sound quite laboured with less flow to the music. CD12 was a nice bit of hardware though
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Post by sunbeamgls »

There are a few points on this page that I would like to comment on - only my opinion of course, but based on being at the factory for the launch and hearing Exakt at the factory and at House of Linn:

- I don't think, during all of this, that I've heard Linn say that digital is now better than analogue vinyl. If these claims are being made because someone has heard these actual words directly from Linn employees, then fine. If these claims are begin made because of digitizing of the vinyl signal in the Exakt system, then there is a mis-understanding of why Linn have done this.
- The point of digitizing the analogue signal in the Exakt is mainly to ensure time and phase alignment of the drivers, produce a more accurate splitting of the frequencies being fed to each drive unit and to allow for the compensation of manufacturing tolerances in the 3K array drive units. Now, I don't know the exact numbers on this, but there's a very high chance (I would think almost a certainty) that converting the analogue signal into digital in the EDSM (24/192 remember) is likely to do much less damage to the signal than is done by not using Exakt benefits at the speaker end. So, although some would consider it sacrilege to convert analogue to digital, if it results in a better time / phase-aligned signal, better active crossovers and greater accuracy between speaker pairs than would ever be possible in analogue crossovers and loudspeakers then I suggest you really need to listen for yourself before deciding if an all analogue KLP12 / KK / 350a sounds more musical than an KLP12 / KEDSM / E350a sounds ;-)
As an equation then what I'm suggesting (and why I think Linn have gone down this route) its this: Distortion Caused By Analogue Speakers >>>> Distortion Caused By ADC
- For those who fear the digitization of the LP12 output purely on the basis of introducing digital into the analogue chain then this is largely irrelevant for 90%+ of anything recorded this century as it has already been digital earlier in its life (ie the master tapes).
- My understanding is that Exakt is unlikely to ever reach down to Majik level. For an Akurate EDSM then it will be the ADC stage that will be the major difference, in addition to the casework. I'm hoping we'll get a version of the AEDSM with no analogue inputs too.
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Post by hcl »

sunbeamgls wrote:There are a few points on this page that I would like to comment on - only my opinion of course, but based on being at the factory for the launch and hearing Exakt at the factory and at House of Linn:

- I don't think, during all of this, that I've heard Linn say that digital is now better than analogue vinyl. If these claims are being made because someone has heard these actual words directly from Linn employees, then fine. If these claims are begin made because of digitizing of the vinyl signal in the Exakt system, then there is a mis-understanding of why Linn have done this.
- The point of digitizing the analogue signal in the Exakt is mainly to ensure time and phase alignment of the drivers, produce a more accurate splitting of the frequencies being fed to each drive unit and to allow for the compensation of manufacturing tolerances in the 3K array drive units. Now, I don't know the exact numbers on this, but there's a very high chance (I would think almost a certainty) that converting the analogue signal into digital in the EDSM (24/192 remember) is likely to do much less damage to the signal than is done by not using Exakt benefits at the speaker end. So, although some would consider it sacrilege to convert analogue to digital, if it results in a better time / phase-aligned signal, better active crossovers and greater accuracy between speaker pairs than would ever be possible in analogue crossovers and loudspeakers then I suggest you really need to listen for yourself before deciding if an all analogue KLP12 / KK / 350a sounds more musical than an KLP12 / KEDSM / E350a sounds ;-)
As an equation then what I'm suggesting (and why I think Linn have gone down this route) its this: Distortion Caused By Analogue Speakers >>>> Distortion Caused By ADC
- For those who fear the digitization of the LP12 output purely on the basis of introducing digital into the analogue chain then this is largely irrelevant for 90%+ of anything recorded this century as it has already been digital earlier in its life (ie the master tapes).
- My understanding is that Exakt is unlikely to ever reach down to Majik level. For an Akurate EDSM then it will be the ADC stage that will be the major difference, in addition to the casework. I'm hoping we'll get a version of the AEDSM with no analogue inputs too.
I do not regard "source first" as a law of nature, but a rule supported by empirical results from a large number of trials. As such it should be used carefully, because it might well not be generally applicable and has to be re-evaluated for every new not yeat validated principal set-up (I am struggling to find the right words to describe what I mean here). In some cases it is not that obvious which functional chain to follow discerning source- or information-path from interference. When it comes to the source units (vinyl or CD, DS players) the obvious source route is the source material (the disc), but it has also been suggested that the furniture, LAN-cables, NAS used is more important than the DS used. I am not sure to what extent this is valid as there are not easy to see what is happening when the different parts forming the analogue output from a DS actually comes together in the ADC. There are so much that still needs to be tested to give some kind of definable understanding in this filed, especially the digital side of the DS units.

One thing that would bring Linn down is if they started to ignore tune-dem testing of changes, purely because they do not think that it would have any impact on the end result. I think we have seen signs of this lately, but I am not sure to what extent this is due to resource limitations or exagerated belief in basic signal and the current knowledge regarding psycho acoustics (I would imagine that they have to make compromises between how much they validate a design change on the digital side and the functional benefit being gained from the same design changes).

Regarding the statement that only analogue processing adds noise, actually is NOT TRUE. Every processing stage where the signal is tampered with in any way, level changed etc actually adds noise. One could argue that the noise added is negligible and it might (in many cases) well be, but the noise added is not zero. AND, Until we fully know what is happening on the digital side, the perceived effect of every processing stage should be evaluated - using tune-dem. Failing this, I think, would be a big mistake. It is one thing not understanding or not believing in a fenomenon, but ignoring it will not make it go away - if it actually is there.
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Linn Exakt versus active ATCs

Post by matthias »

A point of view regarding Exakt from the ATC Forums:

http://atcforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6375

KR

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Re: Linn Exakt versus active ATCs

Post by hcl »

matthias wrote:A point of view regarding Exakt from the ATC Forums:

http://atcforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6375

KR

matthias
It is quite obvious that the poster compares the demo with his own system playing the same songs from 45 rpm, 12", original vinyl. As he does not reflect over this indicates (well to me) that he is just in bashing mode.

From the same guy:
The standard A350s cost £30k, and are killed stone dead by active 50s at less than £10k. If we use the Linn "Tune Dem" method, they are also killed by my laptop w/ Spotify! How they can justify such high prices for these products, I have no idea.
Seriously...
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Post by matthias »

The best hi-fi speakers, like 350s, Akubariks, 242s have brilliant sound quality but typically have limited dynamic range.

When I listened for the first time to a Linn system about 20 years ago I was blown away. It was a brilliant combo, LP12, Troika, LK1, LK2-80 and Kans.

Recently I listened to a Klimax Akubarik system in Germany and to the Exakt system in Switzerland and found both uninvolving and compressed.
I think both systems exhibit a significant amount of power compression. They are not able to play loud like the real thing.

Perhaps the Komri with Solos is able to do this things right.....

KR

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Post by hcl »

matthias wrote:The best hi-fi speakers, like 350s, Akubariks, 242s have brilliant sound quality but typically have limited dynamic range.

When I listened for the first time to a Linn system about 20 years ago I was blown away. It was a brilliant combo, LP12, Troika, LK1, LK2-80 and Kans.

Recently I listened to a Klimax Akubarik system in Germany and to the Exakt system in Switzerland and found both uninvolving and compressed.
I think both systems exhibit a significant amount of power compression. They are not able to play loud like the real thing.

Perhaps the Komri with Solos is able to do this things right.....

KR

matthias
The compression is likely already in the recording. If it is perceived as being in the way for the music, it is quite strange for a system being set-up well. If the system sounds uninvolving also indicates that something is wrong with the installation. The top systems seem to be seriously tricky to set-up correctly. I have heard Akubarik sounding amazing though, feed with a top LP12. Exact is still on my list of must listen to systems.

You are right that mpst speakers suffer from serious dynamic compression. Linn: s array speakers are likely not anywhere nere the worst in its class though. Quite the oposite actually. A guy over at the Linn forum have measured the sound preassure level in his room while driving his 242s with a maxed out 1000W+ McIntosh amp, measuring seriously harmful sound pressure levels. As faar as I know very few domestic speakers can match those figures. As they use lots of drivers, they can handle quite alot of power before heating up the drivers compared to most other domestic speakers and active drive reduces power compression although (I think) it can have detrimental effects on distorsion performance (if not handled correctly).

A low amount of distorsion works in the oposite direction though, making dynamic compression more obvious. Partly we perceive distorision as an increase in playback level and the lack of it makes us want to increase the level more.

All in all, I agree with your conclusion. Domestic speaker suffer quite severely from dynamic compression. It is not that obvious which of them actually suffering the most though. Kan is likel one of the most compressing designs. I think the trick is to design in a way that the raise in distiorion gradually meets the raise in sound level so that it is perceived as a continuing increase, not in distorsion but in sound pressure. Musically, obviously this is not a good idea, but when the compression is obvious it is not that pleasant either. A tricky thing this... Living in an apartment I would think some compression and distorsion limiting the desire to play louder actually is preferable to some degree :-)
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Post by lejonklou »

Finally I have heard the Exakt system.

Is it extremely sensitive to installation? This system was apparently optimised by Linn.
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Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote:Finally I have heard the Exakt system.
Please elaborate!
And did you compare if with another system in the same/other room?
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by lejonklou »

Music Lover wrote:Please elaborate!
And did you compare if with another system in the same/other room?
I'd rather not. I was just wondering if the Exakt 350 system is very difficult to install, more so than previous top of the line systems?

I have heard other systems in the same room, yes.
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Post by anthony »

lejonklou wrote:
Music Lover wrote:Please elaborate!
And did you compare if with another system in the same/other room?
I'd rather not. I was just wondering if the Exakt 350 system is very difficult to install, more so than previous top of the line systems?

I have heard other systems in the same room, yes.
Exakt gives the impression all problems resolved with software, they need extreme care in setup, and I am still learning.
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