Exakt

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Re: Exakt

Post by Music Lover »

No desire at all, quite the opposite. I think we all look forward to listen to new GREAT products, products than further enhance the musical enjoyment.
I have numerous times attended Exakt demos with direct comparison with a similar non-Exakt systems. To that also many demos without directly comparing (Klimax 350 and Akobarik demos and recently the external Exaktbox'ed M140)
I have yet to fall i love despite close to 10 demos being held by arguably 2 of the most dedicated Tune Demmers. (Linn retailers, each with 30y experience)

But Exakt Akudorik is rather good, by far the best Exakt performance I heard.
Trust me, I really looking forward hearing a GREAT Exakt system! Competition is good and drive the evolution.

Should be nice to try Exaktbox'ed Klångedang with 4*Mono 2s...
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: Exakt

Post by matthias »

Music Lover wrote: Should be nice to try Exaktbox'ed Klångedang with 4*Mono 2s...
Maybe, but the Klangedang series crossover is a peach!

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Re: Exakt

Post by Charlie1 »

hcl wrote:
Ozzzy189 wrote:Anyone reading this would probably think you ARE picking fights hcl, it certainly looks like it to me reading this anyway.
How is that? Please explain.
Your wording does seem a bit aggressive of late. I appreciate there is friction and you may feel provoked, but even so, we're all sharing and enjoying the same hobby. I'm sure we all have more in common with one another than the next person. I think a lot of people would find it pretty amusing that we're falling out over Hi-Fi. My friends would certainly poke fun out of me. I probably wouldn't hear the end of it, hence I don't mention my hobby much to them :)

I quite like the concept that there is my idea of the truth, your idea, and one absolute truth. I think we're all just trying to get closer to the absolute truth. Exakt it making this quite challenging though!
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Re: Exakt

Post by hcl »

Charlie1 wrote:
hcl wrote:
Ozzzy189 wrote:Anyone reading this would probably think you ARE picking fights hcl, it certainly looks like it to me reading this anyway.
How is that? Please explain.
Your wording does seem a bit aggressive of late.
That was never my intention so apology, all round, for that!
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Re: Exakt

Post by u252agz »

hcl wrote:I feel there are a big desire to dismiss Exakt on here and I do not think it is correct.
I am relatively new to the forum but the only reason I participate is that I feel that the contributors ( without exception) are honest and represent their impressions and opinions.

There is the occasional emotional outburst in support of various items, but the vast majority is reasoned and balanced.

Exakt- or at least the majority of Exakt installations at various dealers, seems to split the Tune dem community down the middle; so what was once a relatively objective measure of musicality, now clearly has a strong subjective component.

This should not be a source of irritation or annoyance to people in the two camps.

Variety is the spice of life and we should try and embarace the many excellent different technologies which are either being improved (in the case of analogue systems ) or designed and developed ( in the case of exakt/digital systems).


There is a lot of talk regarding Exakt installations - let us not forget that analogue installations can also be far from perfect. I have heard the same high quality analogue components sound either quite mediocre or rather excellent depending on the system/room/ installation at various Linn dealers.
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Re: Exakt

Post by hcl »

u252agz wrote:
hcl wrote:I feel there are a big desire to dismiss Exakt on here and I do not think it is correct.
I am relatively new to the forum but the only reason I participate is that I feel that the contributors ( without exception) are honest and represent their impressions and opinions.

There is the occasional emotional outburst in support of various items, but the vast majority is reasoned and balanced.

Exakt- or at least the majority of Exakt installations at various dealers, seems to split the Tune dem community down the middle; so what was once a relatively objective measure of musicality, now clearly has a strong subjective component.

This should not be a source of irritation or annoyance to people in the two camps.

Variety is the spice of life and we should try and embarace the many excellent different technologies which are either being improved (in the case of analogue systems ) or designed and developed ( in the case of exakt/digital systems).


There is a lot of talk regarding Exakt installations - let us not forget that analogue installations can also be far from perfect. I have heard the same high quality analogue components sound either quite mediocre or rather excellent depending on the system/room/ installation at various Linn dealers.
The ending of your post touches why I think the opinions regarding Exakt could be a bit rushed. Exakt brings new (good or bad - to be discussed) challenges and possibly higher performance than the previous, similarly priced systems and the new require time for the dealers to learn how to optimize (installation vice). To be fair I think already the old analogue top Klimax systems often sounded less optimal at many dealers. Quite ok sound vice, but on many occasions not that impressive musically.
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Re: Exakt: my experiences

Post by Andrew L »

ThomasOK wrote: When doing the 242 comparisons it became most obvious that there was a kind of flat, dull and lifeless quality to the music when in Exakt mode. It didn’t engage you, it didn’t pull you in, it didn’t get your feet tapping and it didn’t evoke the same emotional response that the system did when running analog. This was also the opinion of the vast majority of the people who listened to the comparisons here. Interestingly it seemed that the more analog there was in the system (analog preamp, analog source) the better it performed musically. So in these experiences the Exakt systems did not deliver more enjoyable music than equivalent analog systems.
I've been catching-up with this thread and when I came across ThomasOK's lengthy and thoughtful piece (thank you!) I have to say reading the above was music to my ears as it reflected my experiences with Exakt exactly! I had a dealer set-up Exakt on loan in my active Komri system and it was musically a disaster from the beginning to the end. It was the replay of vinyl through Exakt which was especially poor(such that I find the comments of others who praise it to the nth.degree puzzling) with the sound acquiring a misty haze and having a bland homogenized character when compared to the straight analogue set-up.
DS is something of an anathema to me and whilst Linn devotes so much energy to Exakt, I seem to have few points of commonality with Linn these days.
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Re: Exakt

Post by jlrchrds »

Hi Andrew.

I think Exakt's biggest issue is setup. While I don't want to purposely offend anyone... it's a bitch to get Exakt setup correctly and I'm not backing down. I don't believe that most dealers know how to setup the system (Linn's docs are mediocre at best); and it's not a one or two hour setup affair like standard analog gear. There are differences in sound down to the mm and it all depends on right approach to room setup. I suspect Linn really needs to offer dealer training (maybe they already do, but IMHO it takes something similar to LP12 skill level to set up correctly). Linn's software is not user friendly at all. I've found some issues with presets on my KDSM/1 which I'll comment on shortly. For what it's worth, I have deleted my Exakt presets three times and reset up the system (and went back and compared results). It's great when you begin getting it right, but again I doubt most dealers (particularly old school) know how to approach setup. Now for vinyl on Exakt, which I'm going to caveat because I don't own Komri's so were not talking apples to apples here. I have Exakt Dorik stands with 212s v1, a 221, a KLP12 and a KDSM/1.

Vinyl sounds stellar on Exakt and that's primarily what I listen to... digital sounds better than I've owned thus far (KK/1, KDS/1), but it isn't the same quality as vinyl at all. That said, I was ready to give the Dorik standsback to my dealer after running it in for a couple of weeks. A few albums sound really great initially, but the more I listened most sounded crap and distorted. I kept thinking well, maybe it's just showing more of the vinyl... um no. It got to a point where I would say 9 out 10 albums sounded bad. I thought there is something wrong, and that Exakt either is bad or I must have a problem with my Kandid. It's didn't sound like this with either my old KK/1 or KDSM/1 run in analog. I use balanced interconnects from the Urika to the KDSM/1, ah hah there was the problem. It turns out Linn's balanced presets were not setup correctly for the Urika... it was set at 2 vrms and it should have been 4 or 6 and there were other things to select. Everything vinyl was hot and distorted. I can't say what the setting would be for an EKDSM using RCAs, but it's possible it may have been incorrect as well. Again, a setup and preset difference that completely affected sound quality. Otherwise, setup comes down to the mm and if you have an oddly shaped room (which I do) all bets are off... you need to play and be patient.

At the end of day, you can get great sound from a fully analog system or Exakt. I think if we knew Linn's customer profile, I'd bet we'd find almost all customers are some sort of perfectionists and many of us are first adopters. I bet you are getting wonderful sound from you're Komris as is... and if you're patient try Exakt again after a few years when dealers know how to set it up and the interface is more user friendly.

I'm very happy with my Exakt system, but I can't say it has been easy getting there OR that I still have the setup perfect.

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Re: Exakt

Post by Azazello »

The argument here is still that Exakt is so good, that compared to an analogue system is immediately sounds worse, given that nothing else is changed? But if you wait a few weeks and work a lot on the installation it starts sounding absolutely great? Like this:

1: Change to Exakt -> sounds worse

2: Tweak the system for weeks -> sounds better than memory of previous performance


Apart from that it sound a bit odd to me, the other problem is that I have not heard about any of these systems being converted back to analogue to confirm this "finding".

Making it even worse; I have also heard at least two cases of:
3: Getting tired of Exakt and permanently change back to analogue
But these people don't want to go out in public with this, because it would hurt their own, as well as others, economic interests and relation to Linn.

The other thing I find mysterious how Linn managed to develop this "new level of reproduction" without even listening to it in the process (since no one knew how to install it). Given the experience of the LS-NAS it's clear that development in the digital domain needs to be done by ear, and this was apparently not possible?
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Re: Exakt

Post by lunch »

I've been seeking out Exakt systems in the past six months or so. It's been a mixed bag, indeed. I've heard one great system. I've also heard some poor ones. The good one sounded like a great music system with exceptional clarity and pinpointing etc in addition. To a level I've not heard before.

However, the poor ones all lack groove. And They are the majority! They don't play music. They only have clarity and the other hifi aspects. Thus, they bore you to tears. It seems to me Exakt systems very easily fall into this category. Might be due to installation, I don't really know. I've heard both dealer setups and systems set up by the traveling Linn pack. Makes very little difference. Having heard this on so many occasions, I'd feel it as an enormous risk to go Exakt. What if it stinks?!?!? Would I even be able to admit it to myself?

I hope it's a dealer traning and experience thing, but I remain on the fence about Exakt for now until I can hear a consistent improvement as the norm rather than the exception. Probably wait for next-generation Exakt with open ears and no prejudice and see what it sounds like.
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Re: Exakt

Post by Azazello »

In my view, the problem with the sporadically good Exakt-system is that a lot of systems can sound exceptionally good on occasion. We all know that it depends on a lot of stuff we don't know much about: Some days, and in some places it just sounds great. I listen a lot on familiar music at work. From YouTube on a random computer in iPhone-headphones. And sometimes I'm dancing on my chair because its so great. That's not because that system is "good" compared to anything else, but because I have the ability to listen to music in the same way that most people do. Most of us probably still have that.

Before Exakt we always relied on AAB comparisons, where you changed something in the system and listened to the difference. It if was better we assumed that it was due to the change in the system.

With the Exakt-box that is possible, and until I hear reliable people tell me that the change for Exakt in an existing system actually improves musicality... well.

EDIT: changed some wording in the first sentence.
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Re: Exakt

Post by Music Lover »

My experience is that systems are rather consistant in performancy over time. Ok a bit up/down sometimes but very small variations, not great to poor. Not great to just good...not great to very good either.
A good soldered K200 speaker cable is a bigger difference.
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Re: Exakt

Post by Ozzzy189 »

... Don't buy exakt, just lej k200!! ☺
It's a real minefield is exakt it would seem, and I bet even some dealers are a little bit unsure or rather intimidated by the whole process. That's why a great dealer is an absolute must.
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Re: Exakt

Post by Music Lover »

Just to be clear, I responded to Azazello's comment.
Azazello wrote: a lot of systems can sound exceptionally good on occasion.
I'm not talking about installations affecting performance, as it can be a massive difference between a good and sloppy installation.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: Exakt

Post by Azazello »

Music Lover wrote:My experience is that systems are rather consistant in performancy over time. Ok a bit up/down sometimes but very small variations, not great to poor. Not great to just good...not great to very good either.
A good soldered K200 speaker cable is a bigger difference.
I don't agree with you about that but maybe it's my perception of music that varies more than yours.

Either way, I don't think it matters much. If it's worse in a AAB comparation in the same system I don't believe it's better at all. That's my only point.
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Re: Exakt

Post by beck »

I simply cannot accept that I have to break my analog signal from my lp12 into small pieces when I know that the hardware behind making 0 and 1 is not flawless. From the time when I played games on my computer I know that the speed of the calculations going on can change from one moment to another (just like if the platter on my lp12 could not rotate steadily).
I am going in the other direction keeping my system analog and passive! It gives me great music and enjoyment.
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Re: Exakt

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote:I simply cannot accept that I have to break my analog signal from my lp12 into small pieces when I know that the hardware behind making 0 and 1 is not flawless. From the time when I played games on my computer I know that the speed of the calculations going on can change from one moment to another (just like if the platter on my lp12 could not rotate steadily).
I am going in the other direction keeping my system analog and passive! It gives me great music and enjoyment.
I don't like the concept any more than you Beck, but I think it's healthy to keep an open mind, at least until you hear a well set-up comparison. And things change and hopefully improve, so even if something isn't good enough today, it might be good enough in 10 years time. Think of the DC motor that Linn shunned for years until the motors improved and they could then develop the Radikal.
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Re: Exakt

Post by beck »

I will try to keep an open mind but Linn has become quite a different beast from what once was. Ivor is no longer in control and his opinion is the only one I trust. The Linn sound has gradually changed in my view to something different from when he started.

I have come to the point where my system is playing music the way I like it. I can only hope for more of the same and I don't think Linn can deliver it anymore. Maybe I am wrong or maybe I should listen to some of the Lejonklou products. Time will tell.

P.S. You have to get away from the digital volume control to get back to a more natural sound. I hate too polite sound! :-)
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Re: Exakt

Post by Charlie1 »

You're the one investing in and listening to your system, so you're right to stick to what you enjoy. It sounds like you prefer a particular style of presentation and the newer gear disrupts your enjoyment, despite any musical benefits that many of us appreciate. Is that fair comment do you think? And it's certainly easier on your pocket that way. I thought Leo might answer your LK240 post - I reckon you two share the same ear manufacturer :)
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Re: Exakt

Post by beck »

I think your discription is fair. My ever so unscientific take on music and digital is that digital can always get closer but will never reach the destination.

Dispite the fog and mud and dust analog has always been there in the first place!
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Re: Exakt

Post by ThomasOK »

beck wrote:I think your discription is fair. My ever so unscientific take on music and digital is that digital can always get closer but will never reach the destination.

Dispite the fog and mud and dust analog has always been there in the first place!
Nice description. +1
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Re: Exakt

Post by ThomasOK »

I find it very interesting in following the discussions on the Linn forum that Linn does not allow you to roll back a software update to Exakt. I imagine that they aren't happy with the way a goodly number of people have mentioned that some versions of Davaar are less musical than other earlier versions. It does cast doubt on their ability to bring out new versions that are consistently as good or better than previous versions and Linn seem to like to maintain that there are no musical differences except when they specifically say there are (such as when they changed how the up sampling works early on). But it is surprising that they have gone to the level of not allowing software rollbacks. Furthermore, they have stated that they do not intend to ever allow this capability. One might think they want to make it more difficult to do comparisons of the musical qualities of different firmware. Father knows best!
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Re: Exakt

Post by anthony »

ThomasOK wrote:I find it very interesting in following the discussions on the Linn forum that Linn does not allow you to roll back a software update to Exakt. I imagine that they aren't happy with the way a goodly number of people have mentioned that some versions of Davaar are less musical than other earlier versions. It does cast doubt on their ability to bring out new versions that are consistently as good or better than previous versions and Linn seem to like to maintain that there are no musical differences except when they specifically say there are (such as when they changed how the up sampling works early on). But it is surprising that they have gone to the level of not allowing software rollbacks. Furthermore, they have stated that they do not intend to ever allow this capability. One might think they want to make it more difficult to do comparisons of the musical qualities of different firmware. Father knows best!
It is possible to revert back to previous versions of Davaar.
The discussion applies to the speaker firmware, once upgraded is non reversible.
Despite the majority heaping great praise on this latest upgrade, I believe a few have had misgivings.
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Re: Exakt

Post by lejonklou »

anthony wrote:Despite the majority heaping great praise on this latest upgrade, I believe a few have had misgivings.
What does this mean?

Does it mean that some think the latest firmware is worse than the previous, and then they can't go back? On their own system?
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Re: Exakt

Post by Music Lover »

anthony wrote: The discussion applies to the speaker firmware, once upgraded is non reversible.
If my info is correct, it's same with the Exaktbox.

All this is REALLY bad news!
Appart from the concern regarding performance, what can a customer do if the latest firmware is unstable or in any other way isn't working properly??
Remember, an issue i the Exaktbox or speaker can ruin the playback from all sources, not just the DS...that would be a nightmare for me.
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