As short as possible, the result is:
LADS on top of a Hannl X2000 rotation brushed record gives indeed a slight
improvement. Instruments and voices are smoother, gain beauty,
appear somewhat more refined.
LADS alone (rot. brushed) is inferiour to X2000 alone.
X2000 after the (a bit disappointing) LADS helps a lot but does not
reach the X2000 plus LADS treatment.
These are all nuances compared to the big step rot. brushing induced.
As the LADS alone (rot. brushed) was not as satisfying as the X2000,
and rot. brushing the latter was the main improvement, I did not
do a 'unbrushed' LADS test.
Thus, for a one step treatment, I will use Hannl liquid rot. brushed,
for a two step treatment I will add LADS after that. As I apply the
liquid not from a tank but from hand held bottles, I can apply the two
steps in one procedure, so I expect this to become standard.
This seems not to be far away from the AI sequence including a
liquid containing alcohol, another without. The result contradicts
my previous assumption that the last washing step should benefit
from containing alcohol.
Now the question is, whether AI liquids further improve the sound,
and whether rot. brushing them would be worthwhile. As it is
likely that nobody has tried the latter (including the producers),
we can only guess. My bet is on the rot. brush side. In any case,
I'm more than happy with the very substantial improvement found by
accidentally testing a rotation brush.
Slightly exhausted but happy, Klaus
Record and stylus cleaners
Moderator: Staff
Interesting info Klaus. I just read a review posted on the Hannl website of the Micro and the tester used both the Hannl fluid and the LAD in the test. He preferred the LAD but didn't try a two step test. He liked the Hannl but didn't think it actually cleaned any better than the VPI 16.5 but he didn't use the rotating brush. I am having a problem understanding how the rotating brush works. From the reading I did it looked like you brushed the record by hand on the Micro and the wand was just for suction. So I'm not seeing how the rotating brush would work on it - does it somehow attach to the suction wand or is there some other fitting needed for attaching it? I certainly hope you don't have to hold it by hand!
From the review, which appears to be from a US reviewer, the Micro may be available in the US but there is quite a price premium - something like $1400 compared to the $550 VPI so I do have a real interest in whether the rotation brush provides a benefit with the AI fluids. It is too bad you don't have the AI stuff there as it is quite noticeably better than the LAD.
I do plan on listening to the files you put up and I will attempt to do a comparison of new vs. AI cleaned record if I can get it all hooked up (I don't normally rip my records and have to use a complicated setup to get it to the computer). I have a couple of new records coming in that would provide good test subjects.
From the review, which appears to be from a US reviewer, the Micro may be available in the US but there is quite a price premium - something like $1400 compared to the $550 VPI so I do have a real interest in whether the rotation brush provides a benefit with the AI fluids. It is too bad you don't have the AI stuff there as it is quite noticeably better than the LAD.
I do plan on listening to the files you put up and I will attempt to do a comparison of new vs. AI cleaned record if I can get it all hooked up (I don't normally rip my records and have to use a complicated setup to get it to the computer). I have a couple of new records coming in that would provide good test subjects.
These pics should answer the questions. First is before starting, with
rotation brush upside down. It is designed to apply the cleaning liquid
with a push button action on the larger machines. As mentioned, I do
not use this (and I can't with this machine). Second shows the cleaning
procedure. The rot. brush has not to scrub the grooves, but has to
wipe the liquid forcefully through them. A liquid pattern like that on
the pic is just right. The brush is driven by friction wheels, and turns
its rotation direction together with a changing platter direction. I
use usually 1 min right, 1 min left. The central weight, pic 3, is
equipped with a sealing to protect the label. The weight is quite
substantial and obviously serves multiple purposes: keeping the
record flat, ensure a good contact to the antistatic platter mat,
ensure that the record turns under powerful suction.... The machine
is certainly not build with the idea to save material. Pic 4 is after
washing a couple of records in the 'washing corner', there's more
records to dry completely distributed everywhere across the room.
The habit of letting the records dry for a while stems from the observation that after 'normal' washing some black stuff may accumulate on the stylus when playing a record immediately after washing it. No idea if that depends on the liquid used. In the light of present knowledge this would probably be some partly resolved mold release compound that had not been washed out completely off the grooves. Basic idea then is: Let it get solid again by drying out again. So for safety reasons I usually wash the record one day and play it the second. It is interesting that some professional cleaning shops use hair dryer type gear to get the records completely dry. I'm afraid of the high particle flux involved when doing so with home appliances.
Funny, that there seems always somebody who has known before:
Unser Tip für Hardcore-Waschfreaks: Reinigen Sie mit X 2000 vor und mit LArt Du Son nach. Sie werdens nicht glauben. Aber dafür hören! (Audiophile Vinyl, Hamburg). (Our recommendation for hardcore washing freaks: Clean first with X2000 and second with LADS. You won't believe it but hear it.) This info has by no means found entrance in a faq section or the like but has nicely been hidden, no, not in the description of LADS, but in the info about X2000! I'd translate washing freaks into music lovers, though. Nevertheless, this seems to be the shop of choice if looking for a cleaning service.
Funny, that there seems always somebody who has known before:
Unser Tip für Hardcore-Waschfreaks: Reinigen Sie mit X 2000 vor und mit LArt Du Son nach. Sie werdens nicht glauben. Aber dafür hören! (Audiophile Vinyl, Hamburg). (Our recommendation for hardcore washing freaks: Clean first with X2000 and second with LADS. You won't believe it but hear it.) This info has by no means found entrance in a faq section or the like but has nicely been hidden, no, not in the description of LADS, but in the info about X2000! I'd translate washing freaks into music lovers, though. Nevertheless, this seems to be the shop of choice if looking for a cleaning service.
Thanks for the additional info and photos, Klaus. I did some more digging on the Hannl website and, combined with your photos, it now makes sense. I saw the rotating brush on the website and also found that there is an adapter to allow it to be mounted to units with only one wand, like the Micro. I also see that the rotating brush and the adapter to allow it to fit on the Micro are a non-trivial purchase running €468! This definitely jumps up the price of the unit. That said the brush does appear to be a well thought out device and seems to make sense. If only I could test one out without having to buy one!
Agreed, and I would not have bought it without being able to testThomasOK wrote: I also see that the rotating brush and the adapter to allow it to fit on the Micro are a non-trivial purchase.
it first and be fully convinced. When I look at it, I always think about
the Radikal and have peace of mind. The material consumption in the
rotation brush is really opulent. I'd be in favor of a 'volks-brush' with
the same functionality but a most basic appearance. It is interesting
that people who own it don't complain about costs, and that no one seems
to part from the brush and it's virtually non existent on the s/h market.
Similar to the Hannl machines.
We do make a comparison including the AI fluid in the near future. The
people at AI are so kind to send some oz over to Europe (again, we
don't think of - this time transportation - costs) and 3-step agent
is already ordered. Comparing this with and w/o rotation should give
an idea. I intend to use a pair of records of similar initial sound,
and treat them A and B. Any suggestion which liquid should be
power brushed? I think it makes no sense with the final step, rinsing
water. But brush both previous steps?
Unfaked recording promised.
Last edited by k_numigl on 2011-10-27 08:10, edited 1 time in total.
I have to say the brush does look like quite a construction. I'm not surprised Jim is sending you some AI fluid - he's a good guy to work with and really knows his stuff.
I'm not sure which step to power brush on but I guess I'd go with the first step (the enzyme fluid). I would think that once the first step has been done with the power brush the other fluids can just be applied normally and the grunge that was in the groove should have already been removed.
You don't want to use it for both the first and second step as they need to have different brushes for each fluid. For one thing the Super Cleaner, which is a detergent/alcohol based cleaner. will kill the enzymes. So if you clean one record using the brush for the super cleaner and then clean another side with the enzyme cleaner using the same brush you will hurt the effectiveness of the of the enzymes.
I definitely look forward to reading your results from the AI fluids.
I'm not sure which step to power brush on but I guess I'd go with the first step (the enzyme fluid). I would think that once the first step has been done with the power brush the other fluids can just be applied normally and the grunge that was in the groove should have already been removed.
You don't want to use it for both the first and second step as they need to have different brushes for each fluid. For one thing the Super Cleaner, which is a detergent/alcohol based cleaner. will kill the enzymes. So if you clean one record using the brush for the super cleaner and then clean another side with the enzyme cleaner using the same brush you will hurt the effectiveness of the of the enzymes.
I definitely look forward to reading your results from the AI fluids.
After having listened (and washed) some more records, I'd like to modify my previous statement a bit in stating that the 2 step washing procedure has not that minor effect as posted before. The effect is substantial, too. It is not clear yet whether this is due to the mix and order of use of cleaning fluids, or whether using the same fluid twice makes a comparable effect. We are just at the beginning of investigating this business.
What is clear, however, is that using the rotation brush and do a 2 step cleaning with X2000 and LADS is the most important improvement I ever experienced since owning an LP12. Before, you really have no idea what's in the grooves, you have no idea what the Akiva is capable of, and you have no idea how ingeniously the artists play. When playing any untreated record now, I can't help but just hear the unearthed potential of it.
I'm much surprised by this. Isn't the record industry expected to produce their products to the best possible quality and do the cleaning before delivery when the difference is that dramatic? Couldn't a wise dealer just clean a couple of records that way and make his equipment sound unrivalled in town? Hasn't been there any reviewer recognizing the potential of the method? Strange, imho, very strange.
And up to date I don't take much effort: 1 minute turning right, 1 min left, the same with the second fluid, finito. It may be that longer sequences improve things further, but I'm excited enough about the outcome of this simple procedure as to not be prompted too much to investigate the more extended version now.
This is written with European background and using the fluids readily available here. The AI fluids are on their way still and thus wait for a treat. Instead of using a pair of LPs (simple brushing one and rotation brushing the second), I intend by now to simple wash a record, play it, rotation brush the same record, and see how that compares to the previous step. So the potential difference between two records is overcome (though I regard that as minor in this context), and, more importantly, I can do so with numerous records if needed. I'll see if I can organize a second rotation brush to use this construction with both first two steps of AI without destroying the enzymes.
Finally, have you listened to the linked needle drops, Thomas?
Must dash, clean records.... :)
Regards, Klaus
What is clear, however, is that using the rotation brush and do a 2 step cleaning with X2000 and LADS is the most important improvement I ever experienced since owning an LP12. Before, you really have no idea what's in the grooves, you have no idea what the Akiva is capable of, and you have no idea how ingeniously the artists play. When playing any untreated record now, I can't help but just hear the unearthed potential of it.
I'm much surprised by this. Isn't the record industry expected to produce their products to the best possible quality and do the cleaning before delivery when the difference is that dramatic? Couldn't a wise dealer just clean a couple of records that way and make his equipment sound unrivalled in town? Hasn't been there any reviewer recognizing the potential of the method? Strange, imho, very strange.
And up to date I don't take much effort: 1 minute turning right, 1 min left, the same with the second fluid, finito. It may be that longer sequences improve things further, but I'm excited enough about the outcome of this simple procedure as to not be prompted too much to investigate the more extended version now.
This is written with European background and using the fluids readily available here. The AI fluids are on their way still and thus wait for a treat. Instead of using a pair of LPs (simple brushing one and rotation brushing the second), I intend by now to simple wash a record, play it, rotation brush the same record, and see how that compares to the previous step. So the potential difference between two records is overcome (though I regard that as minor in this context), and, more importantly, I can do so with numerous records if needed. I'll see if I can organize a second rotation brush to use this construction with both first two steps of AI without destroying the enzymes.
Finally, have you listened to the linked needle drops, Thomas?
Must dash, clean records.... :)
Regards, Klaus
Hi Klaus, I did get a chance to listen to the samples but not through a Linn system yet. I played them from my MacBook Air through a wireless link to a pair of AudioEngine A5 powered speakers. At $350US a pair they are the second least expensive speakers we carry and they have amps built in (the least expensive are the similar but smaller A2s at $199 a pair). They are, however, pretty musical for the price and are popular here as computer speakers or for use in an office, bedroom, workroom, etc.
I was definitely able to hear the improvement - more musical, easier to follow - especially with the Mahler which I found myself much more absorbed in on the RB version.
Of course, hearing a computer file through small speakers is much different from hearing the actual vinyl on a top system at home or in the store. But I have to say that I would expect even bigger improvements with the AI 3 step over the LAD fluid.
I look forward to your findings and am further investigating the Hannl machine - it certainly seems to have a lot going for it.
I was definitely able to hear the improvement - more musical, easier to follow - especially with the Mahler which I found myself much more absorbed in on the RB version.
Of course, hearing a computer file through small speakers is much different from hearing the actual vinyl on a top system at home or in the store. But I have to say that I would expect even bigger improvements with the AI 3 step over the LAD fluid.
I look forward to your findings and am further investigating the Hannl machine - it certainly seems to have a lot going for it.
It seems as if Jiddu is the only person to play those files
over a decent system (KDS) :((. (It's definitely worth it.) As Jiddu seems
the only one to communicate seriously with on this level - I can do
so without the forum. It is not without reason I posted this here and not
at the 'chat only' Linn equivalent - trial and: error. Please inform me how
to discontinue membership, Fredrik. Thanks, Klaus
over a decent system (KDS) :((. (It's definitely worth it.) As Jiddu seems
the only one to communicate seriously with on this level - I can do
so without the forum. It is not without reason I posted this here and not
at the 'chat only' Linn equivalent - trial and: error. Please inform me how
to discontinue membership, Fredrik. Thanks, Klaus
Klaus, I'm sorry and surprised to hear that you're so angry! I am personally following your experiments with great interest, they are on a level that I've never heard of before and don't believe have been done anywhere. They're unique both due to you being able to make proper comparisons and evaluate them musically, but also because you have a methodical and scientific mind. Therefore I ask you to please not leave, although I can of course delete your membership at any time you please.k_numigl wrote:It seems as if Jiddu is the only person to play those files over a decent system (KDS) :((. (It's definitely worth it.) As Jiddu seems the only one to communicate seriously with on this level - I can do
so without the forum. It is not without reason I posted this here and not
at the 'chat only' Linn equivalent - trial and: error. Please inform me how to discontinue membership, Fredrik. Thanks, Klaus
I haven't had a chance to listen to your files on a Klimax DS, not on any Linn DS player in fact. Sorry about that! I don't have one at home and have been very busy with the final development of my power amp. I know that several guys in Sweden have compared your files and they follow yours and Thomas' investigations on the best fluid, brushes and methods - as well as our many attempts at improving the LP12. Unfortunately, they don't (or very seldom) seem to contribute here or on other English speaking forums.
Yes, please continue Klaus. I don't own a DS at all, so even worse off, but I am very keen to learn how things play out and the preferred cleaning method for LPs. As mentioned before, cleaning LPs is something I don't bother with at all, but you are encouraging me more and more to try and I would want to use the most cost effective method. Also, I don't trust my own judgement when it comes to playing files through a standard laptop - based on past experience I seem too easily confused.
I too am surprised and also confused as to what angered you so.
I too am surprised and also confused as to what angered you so.
Klaus,
I find your experiments most valuable. Especially since I am planning to buy a brand new LP12 soon (to replace my old Cirkus LP12).
Unfortunately the links to the files are no longer working. Is it possible to post them again somewhere?
Maybe I can host them on my server if you e-mail them to me. Just let me know which is easiest for you.
Would really like to hear them!
/ Jacob
I find your experiments most valuable. Especially since I am planning to buy a brand new LP12 soon (to replace my old Cirkus LP12).
Unfortunately the links to the files are no longer working. Is it possible to post them again somewhere?
Maybe I can host them on my server if you e-mail them to me. Just let me know which is easiest for you.
Would really like to hear them!
/ Jacob
I too am very interested. I am busy. That means that a forum (this one in particular) serves to fill a great void in the meaningful advancement of the hobby (obsession possibly). That we all can benefit on our own schedule is reason enough to contribute on the forum instead of taking it all to PMs.
Linn has just today released the beta of songcaster. That will enable us to hear the files through our DS once we get it working. Once we can do that the files can be compared using the Tune Method.
As the weather changes, work will slow down and I would like to be able to keep up with this and all your other work when I have time.
If you stay aboard (Salty Talk) I'll find time to get this songcaster up and going. Comparisons with anything less than my Linn/ATCs would not be worthwhile data IMHO.
The whole idea of needle drops on KDS sounds like it could be a great tool in this record cleaning comparison.
No disrespect intended...but......what were you expecting from us? How would anyone listen on their system if songcaster wasn't available? Knowing that, and given time, this thread has a long, long way to go. If you go you and your efforts will be missed.
But please everyone - Let's keep this going.
Linn has just today released the beta of songcaster. That will enable us to hear the files through our DS once we get it working. Once we can do that the files can be compared using the Tune Method.
As the weather changes, work will slow down and I would like to be able to keep up with this and all your other work when I have time.
If you stay aboard (Salty Talk) I'll find time to get this songcaster up and going. Comparisons with anything less than my Linn/ATCs would not be worthwhile data IMHO.
The whole idea of needle drops on KDS sounds like it could be a great tool in this record cleaning comparison.
No disrespect intended...but......what were you expecting from us? How would anyone listen on their system if songcaster wasn't available? Knowing that, and given time, this thread has a long, long way to go. If you go you and your efforts will be missed.
But please everyone - Let's keep this going.
I could not agree more with the above. This is indeed a very interesting thread. Please Klaus, keep this going. Personally I have no knowledge or experience of cleaning records, so I need everything I can get! Your methodical approach is just what we need here Klaus. It's what we as a community of music lovers are about.
This thread has even made a few of us local vinyl lovers investigate if we should invest in a machine as a "time share" project. The knowledge gathered here made all the difference in having the confidence to make that commitment to actually do something.
I think that the main reason for not listening (my reason anyway) to your files is that we trust your judgement.
This thread has even made a few of us local vinyl lovers investigate if we should invest in a machine as a "time share" project. The knowledge gathered here made all the difference in having the confidence to make that commitment to actually do something.
I think that the main reason for not listening (my reason anyway) to your files is that we trust your judgement.
Please excuse. I must apologize sincerely. What a stupid attitude. Must have been an hour of bad mood, and while there might or might not be a reason (there’s none inside the forum), there is no excuse. Of course the forum was and is a great source of knowledge about musical reproduction, and my own equipment wouldn’t sound anywhere near as good as it sounds today without it. If noone had responded I’d opt for edit: delete, but now let it stand as it is. It proves that in Fredrik’s forum, too, there might be found some comments which are way wrong…:)
Rather leave this and look forward, there’s enough to do: Arrival of AI fluids still awaited, it might take some time with the customs; aluminium plate to be fitted, sits in the shelf and waits for proper studs; electric rotation brush under construction, great idea but whether it ever sees the light of being available is another question; steam cleaning records, seems to be near to be available but everybody remains sceptic to date.
So much in short – thanks for your patience. Klaus
Rather leave this and look forward, there’s enough to do: Arrival of AI fluids still awaited, it might take some time with the customs; aluminium plate to be fitted, sits in the shelf and waits for proper studs; electric rotation brush under construction, great idea but whether it ever sees the light of being available is another question; steam cleaning records, seems to be near to be available but everybody remains sceptic to date.
So much in short – thanks for your patience. Klaus
Glad you reconsidered Klaus. It definitely would have been a loss not to have your research here. We all have bad days so no problem.
Since it seems like it was my post that set you off I might also explain that when I said I hadn't had a chance to listen to the files through a Linn system I didn't mean that I hadn't tried. Indeed I downloaded the files, loaded them on our NAS, rescanned the music files so they would show up and attempted to play them on a ADS/1 through a Klimax level system. I had no luck whatsoever! The files showed up in Kinsky and I was able to add them to the playlist but they refused to play. Other files in the playlist and the radio played fine but the test files just wouldn't play. They even somehow killed the Kinsky on my iPhone which refused to work at all for two days after the attempt?? Since they would play in iTunes I decided to try the beta of Songcaster and downloaded it on my MacBook Air. Once installed Songcaster repeatedly came up with an error message and wouldn't allow me to do anything else on the Air until I removed it. It was this frustration with trying to get it to work through a DS that made me try it through the AE speakers to at least have a chance to listen to them.
By the way I have tried steam cleaning records in the past but am no longer a fan of this technique. The person who recommended the AI fluids to me used to do a five step cleaning regimen! He would steam clean first, then do the AI 3 steps and finish up with a steam rinse. When I talked about the whole steam cleaning idea with the Jim at AI he mentioned what should have been obvious - if the steam is hot enough to have any cleaning effect it will damage the vinyl (and I did find that if you put the nozzle too close it could warp a record). If it is not heated you are doing no more than spraying slightly pressurized vaporized water at it which isn't any better than just wetting the surface with water. I did try the 5 step system of my friend but I didn't find any difference with the initial steaming so I dropped it. Then I tried a four step with a final steaming as kind of a second rinse. What I did though was to just do the 3 step first and listen to it that way and then did a steam rinse and listened again - the steam "rinse" actually made the record sound significantly worse! So I did another rinse with the AI Ultra-Pure Water and it was returned to its previous musical state. Ever since then the steam device has been relegated to cleaning the bathroom, where it doesn't do a very good job either! I now just use the AI 3 step regimen on most of my records as it does a better job than anything else I have used.
Since it seems like it was my post that set you off I might also explain that when I said I hadn't had a chance to listen to the files through a Linn system I didn't mean that I hadn't tried. Indeed I downloaded the files, loaded them on our NAS, rescanned the music files so they would show up and attempted to play them on a ADS/1 through a Klimax level system. I had no luck whatsoever! The files showed up in Kinsky and I was able to add them to the playlist but they refused to play. Other files in the playlist and the radio played fine but the test files just wouldn't play. They even somehow killed the Kinsky on my iPhone which refused to work at all for two days after the attempt?? Since they would play in iTunes I decided to try the beta of Songcaster and downloaded it on my MacBook Air. Once installed Songcaster repeatedly came up with an error message and wouldn't allow me to do anything else on the Air until I removed it. It was this frustration with trying to get it to work through a DS that made me try it through the AE speakers to at least have a chance to listen to them.
By the way I have tried steam cleaning records in the past but am no longer a fan of this technique. The person who recommended the AI fluids to me used to do a five step cleaning regimen! He would steam clean first, then do the AI 3 steps and finish up with a steam rinse. When I talked about the whole steam cleaning idea with the Jim at AI he mentioned what should have been obvious - if the steam is hot enough to have any cleaning effect it will damage the vinyl (and I did find that if you put the nozzle too close it could warp a record). If it is not heated you are doing no more than spraying slightly pressurized vaporized water at it which isn't any better than just wetting the surface with water. I did try the 5 step system of my friend but I didn't find any difference with the initial steaming so I dropped it. Then I tried a four step with a final steaming as kind of a second rinse. What I did though was to just do the 3 step first and listen to it that way and then did a steam rinse and listened again - the steam "rinse" actually made the record sound significantly worse! So I did another rinse with the AI Ultra-Pure Water and it was returned to its previous musical state. Ever since then the steam device has been relegated to cleaning the bathroom, where it doesn't do a very good job either! I now just use the AI 3 step regimen on most of my records as it does a better job than anything else I have used.
I'm sorry that those files seemed to cause severe trouble. I must admit not to play them using a DS. My only knowledge about those DSs is that they _should_ be able to play .wav, but I don't know if the really do. In addition, the wav-world seems to be divers and whether the info in the header is properly read and interpreted seems not always certain. Jiddu plays them on a Linn DS (as they are, not as flac), so at least sometimes it works. Due to my habit to record entire LP sides, the files may be a bit large. I'll check if I can find a program to cut a few minutes off and have smaller files. This should also facilitate transfer. But all free programs I know import the files first to their own format and export to wav again. I'd prefer to keep the format and simply cut a bit out. If somebody knows a program doing this (remember 192 kHz), please give advice.
Best regards, Klaus
P.S.: The links work for 10 days only. I'll see to re-animate them.
Best regards, Klaus
P.S.: The links work for 10 days only. I'll see to re-animate them.
First AI test
Today the AI fluids arrived. There's more to say about them and the procedure, too. But in short: Applied without brushing on disks which have been treated using X2000 plus LADS, both rotation brushed, ruined the sound (:. For good luck I treated only two of those records.
Other records (four, jazz and classics) were treated from scratch with AI. They sound better than before. I will try next to rotation brush them using AI, then doing so again with X2000/LADS combination.
Regards, Klaus
Other records (four, jazz and classics) were treated from scratch with AI. They sound better than before. I will try next to rotation brush them using AI, then doing so again with X2000/LADS combination.
Regards, Klaus
Re: First AI test
Ruined? That sounds really bad, but what do you mean exactly?k_numigl wrote:Applied without brushing on disks which have been treated using X2000 plus LADS, both rotation brushed, ruined the sound
Do you have any clue why the sound was ruined?
I'm trying to understand.
It might be easier for me to explain what I'm thinking. The only experience I have with record cleaning is with a Loricraft PRC3. It came with various different fluids. And a special hand held brush. To clean a record I put the record turning and apply the fluid. Then I use the brush to spread the fluid evenly on the record. Then wait ~`1-2 minutes. Then let the brush go around a few more rotations. Then vacuum. That's it. Except to put into a non-static sleeve and put a little label on the sleeve with the date.
I'm not clear if you are using any type of brush when you are not using the rotating brush. How does my process differ from yours?
As far as fluids go I found I liked the ones that were easier to use without making a mess on the label. One was a foam that worked well, but was hard to control and messy. The ones with the better wetting ability were easiest to use for me.
It might be easier for me to explain what I'm thinking. The only experience I have with record cleaning is with a Loricraft PRC3. It came with various different fluids. And a special hand held brush. To clean a record I put the record turning and apply the fluid. Then I use the brush to spread the fluid evenly on the record. Then wait ~`1-2 minutes. Then let the brush go around a few more rotations. Then vacuum. That's it. Except to put into a non-static sleeve and put a little label on the sleeve with the date.
I'm not clear if you are using any type of brush when you are not using the rotating brush. How does my process differ from yours?
As far as fluids go I found I liked the ones that were easier to use without making a mess on the label. One was a foam that worked well, but was hard to control and messy. The ones with the better wetting ability were easiest to use for me.
I thought it over and think by now that I should abstain from rotation brushing with the AI fluids.
The reasons being
1. This is not intended by the producer
2. The cleaning fluids seem to be adverse to brushing
3. The procedure makes the sound of up to date best cleaned records worse
1. is not a real reason, many times we try things the producer did not think of.
2. is a reason. The fluids cover the surface of the record in a way I've never seen before.
Step 1 in particular. When undisturbed, the fluid is not repelled from the record surface
and forms a mirror flat cover on the grooves. Using a brush leads only to uncovered surface
areas where the fluid can't work.
3. is the final reason for me. The best cleaned records I have do not benefit from the
AI application without brushing. This is expected to be the same with brushing, as
the record itself is apparently already very clean. Rotation brushing is meant to reinforce cleaning,
but the AI seems to add material to the grooves, not to do further cleaning. 'Withour brushing'
means without rotation brushing. The application of the fluids is not possible without
distributing the fluid with a hand held brush. Once they formed the beautiful mirror like
surface, I let them sit for about 5 min for step 1, 2 to 3 minutes for step 2 (not as long as
the alcohol tends to evaporate), and step 3 is a mystery to me.
Step three is the ultra pure water rinse. In contrast to the previous steps, this fluid
continued to contract to an increasingly smaller area when left by itself. The surface tension
is obviously so high (no detergents or surfractances added) that the record literally seems to
repell the water. I applied a hand held brush constantly during this step, but even so
the fluid contracted much until met again by the brush after one rotation of the platter.
If any of this fluid really enters the grooves?
In order not to interfere with the delicate enzyms I first treated all LPs of the test
with step 1 fluid, using a clean brush. Then step 2 was applied, again sequentially
to all LPs. Finally the same with step 3. Recording was after degaussing for each playing,
and I gave the Radikal a similar running in time of 15 min before playing, both for the
recording session with uncleaned LPs and the sesson with cleaned LPs.
If anyone thinks that something was done wrongly, please comment on that. It is also
interesting whether the behaviour of the fluids is similar at other users. If someone sees
a reason to try the rotation brush with the AI stuff despite my reasoning, please also
drop a note.
Now what is 'ruining the sound'. Naja, as mentioned somewhere somehow before, as being not
a professional I tend to see black and white after having heard something better. This is
clearly unprofessional - as a prof you have to sort out the sound in fine grey scales. I
simply can't, and 'ruining' simply means the sound got worse. That the sound improved
when the fluids were applied to previously uncleaned records put things into relation.
I can even imagine that when used in a contest the AI 3-step method outperforms other
fluids. But when recording the clips of records cleaned only with AI I cought myself
thinking whether I really have to do this recording that many minutes, as it was so
obvious that this can't be the final state. I'm simply spoiled by listening to the
rotation brushed records for a couple of weeks now.
Treating the already roation brushed LPs with AI resulted in a loss of the main virtues
of the previous state: Less open, less defined, less lively, less spacy, less precise sound
color, overall less sense in the music. Like a plastic curtain between the orchestra and
the listener. There's one example for that, Mahler Lieder sung by Christa Ludwig:
With AI procedure added:
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/kfBhHSSL
and without (this was how it sounded before, rotation brushed x2000 plus LADS):
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/JSBhHymn
(sorry, the latter is long)
Two samples for illustrating the effect of AI washing on previously untreated LPs:
Beethoven Pianoconcerto 5, ABM playing
uncleaned:
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/d3BhHbJK
AI treated:
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/EYBhHA3J
And Denny Zeitlin, Charlie Haden playing live
uncleaned
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/eJBBn5sq
AI treated:
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/vDhhnLx4
I hope that claryfies the somewhat short comment of yesterday,
Regards, Klaus
The reasons being
1. This is not intended by the producer
2. The cleaning fluids seem to be adverse to brushing
3. The procedure makes the sound of up to date best cleaned records worse
1. is not a real reason, many times we try things the producer did not think of.
2. is a reason. The fluids cover the surface of the record in a way I've never seen before.
Step 1 in particular. When undisturbed, the fluid is not repelled from the record surface
and forms a mirror flat cover on the grooves. Using a brush leads only to uncovered surface
areas where the fluid can't work.
3. is the final reason for me. The best cleaned records I have do not benefit from the
AI application without brushing. This is expected to be the same with brushing, as
the record itself is apparently already very clean. Rotation brushing is meant to reinforce cleaning,
but the AI seems to add material to the grooves, not to do further cleaning. 'Withour brushing'
means without rotation brushing. The application of the fluids is not possible without
distributing the fluid with a hand held brush. Once they formed the beautiful mirror like
surface, I let them sit for about 5 min for step 1, 2 to 3 minutes for step 2 (not as long as
the alcohol tends to evaporate), and step 3 is a mystery to me.
Step three is the ultra pure water rinse. In contrast to the previous steps, this fluid
continued to contract to an increasingly smaller area when left by itself. The surface tension
is obviously so high (no detergents or surfractances added) that the record literally seems to
repell the water. I applied a hand held brush constantly during this step, but even so
the fluid contracted much until met again by the brush after one rotation of the platter.
If any of this fluid really enters the grooves?
In order not to interfere with the delicate enzyms I first treated all LPs of the test
with step 1 fluid, using a clean brush. Then step 2 was applied, again sequentially
to all LPs. Finally the same with step 3. Recording was after degaussing for each playing,
and I gave the Radikal a similar running in time of 15 min before playing, both for the
recording session with uncleaned LPs and the sesson with cleaned LPs.
If anyone thinks that something was done wrongly, please comment on that. It is also
interesting whether the behaviour of the fluids is similar at other users. If someone sees
a reason to try the rotation brush with the AI stuff despite my reasoning, please also
drop a note.
Now what is 'ruining the sound'. Naja, as mentioned somewhere somehow before, as being not
a professional I tend to see black and white after having heard something better. This is
clearly unprofessional - as a prof you have to sort out the sound in fine grey scales. I
simply can't, and 'ruining' simply means the sound got worse. That the sound improved
when the fluids were applied to previously uncleaned records put things into relation.
I can even imagine that when used in a contest the AI 3-step method outperforms other
fluids. But when recording the clips of records cleaned only with AI I cought myself
thinking whether I really have to do this recording that many minutes, as it was so
obvious that this can't be the final state. I'm simply spoiled by listening to the
rotation brushed records for a couple of weeks now.
Treating the already roation brushed LPs with AI resulted in a loss of the main virtues
of the previous state: Less open, less defined, less lively, less spacy, less precise sound
color, overall less sense in the music. Like a plastic curtain between the orchestra and
the listener. There's one example for that, Mahler Lieder sung by Christa Ludwig:
With AI procedure added:
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/kfBhHSSL
and without (this was how it sounded before, rotation brushed x2000 plus LADS):
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/JSBhHymn
(sorry, the latter is long)
Two samples for illustrating the effect of AI washing on previously untreated LPs:
Beethoven Pianoconcerto 5, ABM playing
uncleaned:
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/d3BhHbJK
AI treated:
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/EYBhHA3J
And Denny Zeitlin, Charlie Haden playing live
uncleaned
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/eJBBn5sq
AI treated:
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/vDhhnLx4
I hope that claryfies the somewhat short comment of yesterday,
Regards, Klaus
Hi Klaus. Trying to be helpful, but like I said, I am pretty poor at this via a laptop, but what the hell.
I only downloaded the first two files as they are quite big and other people need to use the Internet.
My initial gut reaction is that the 'mahler_fahrender_ludwig_se2ak_rbladsai.wav' file WITH AI Fluids is more tuneful than without, but I'm at work using a laptop and some office headphones and not too reliable at it anyway, but you did want more participation! ;O)
I only downloaded the first two files as they are quite big and other people need to use the Internet.
My initial gut reaction is that the 'mahler_fahrender_ludwig_se2ak_rbladsai.wav' file WITH AI Fluids is more tuneful than without, but I'm at work using a laptop and some office headphones and not too reliable at it anyway, but you did want more participation! ;O)