Record and stylus cleaners

[Rudy van Gelder]

Hello! I´m new here...
Well, I know that some people say the best way to clean a record is to just play it, no matter how the record looks and feels - just let your $3000 cartridge do the job!
So - I got myself a record cleaner. I bought a Moth RCM in kit form, which I think must be the most cost effective way to get your LPs cleaned. This RCM (Record Cleaning Machine) has two or three advantages: a. it´s comparatively cheap, b. the record rests not on a platter but on a plastic disc about the size of the label which means the record will not be contaminated during washing, and c. I suppose it does it´s main job - vaccuming - at least as good as the other machines.
But isn´t the machine only one half of the process? It´s job is to take the fluid, and whats resolved in it, away from the record. The fluid of course being the other half of the process.
I think, if there is a debate on which machine is the best, there should be - and sometimes is - a way bigger debate on which fluid to use.
I have been using a homebrew consisting of 4/5 parts distilled water, 1/5 isopropylalcohole (I´m not quite sure about the english spelling, but you know what I mean) and two ot three drops of Kodak Photo-flo.
I would really appreciate comments on this because I think there must be a lot of better recipes out there. Anyhow my records have so far been cleaner, sounding better (at least I think so) and I´m sure my needle must like to travel through a smoother path.
OK - well... I have another topic, but maybe I´d better start a new thread... Cliffhanger? Yeah!

[Rudy van Gelder]

Oh, I just forgot to say - I´m of course not the real Rudy van Gelder. I´m just a remake. The real Rudy probably is (was?) the person who listened to more classic jazz sessions than any other person who ever lived on this planet.
I just hope he paid as much attention to the music as he did to his potentiometers.

[lejonklou]

Welcome here, Rudy (the remake)!

I have been into the discussion about fluid with various people. Some say the alcohol is necessary for dissolving the dirt, others say that the alcohol makes the records more crackly because plastic softeners are removed from the record.

Without knowing the definitive answer, I must say the people against alcohol in the record cleaning fluid have made the strongest impression on me. One of them worked with conserving old recordings. His main advice was to avoid cleaning unless absolutely necessary and never use any fluid with alcohol.

Thomas, do you know what that fluid you recommended contains? Guess it's a secret, but perhaps they say whether it's non-alcoholic?

[Rudy van Gelder]

People are saying so much, for instance alcohol is drying out the vinyl, but what do we actually know? Is this something that we use to say or is it something we know for sure? Is it experimentally verified? I don´t ask these questions for fun - I want to know! My vinyl collection is too valuable, musically, to get destroyed because I believe in something that is not true. Now, I believe that a small part of alcohol, isopropylditto, about 4/5, won´t be dangerous, but if that is wrong I want to know.
The stuff that is accumulated in the grooves of, say a Hank Mobley on Blue Note from ´59, when everybody smoked, including myself, will most probably be mainly nicotine, which has been in the grooves for almost fifty years!
I think it will take some real heavy duty stuff to remove it!!
So I´m extremely interested in knowing the formula for the absolutely best record cleaning fluid on this planet! Or any other planet for that matter...
Does anyone out there have it? ThomasOK?

From one thing to the other - has anyone of you guys tried the Audio-Technica AT-637 Stylus Cleaner? A small brush plate, upon which you place the needle, which, when activated, is said to vibrate away everything (well, almost anyway...) thats stuck on your needle. Anybody tried it? What´s your opinion then?

And - what about mc-demagnetizers? Some says they use them frequently (Mike Fremer does, doesn´t he? Art Dudley too?), some says demags make the cartridge old in advance. What do you think?
And, most importantly, what about trying to de-magnetize for instance a Linn Akiva? Would that be a good idea? Or maybe a lousy one?
Well, if you get good results demagnetizing a Lyra you should get the same result demaging an Akiva - or?

[ThomasOK]

Quite a few questions here so I guess I'll just dig in.

On Fredrik's question the L'Art du Son record cleaning fluid does not contain any alcohol, and is claimed to be non-toxic and bio-degradeable.

On to Rudy's (wecome to the forum) questions: I have certainly not tried all the many different record cleaners out there so anything I say is not definitive. I have tried a homebrew similar to yours, Nitty Gritty, VPI and L'Art du Son. The best I had heard previous to the L'Art du Son was the VPI but the L'Art du Son was significantly better. To me I could hear more of the music in the groove and the sound seemed better balanced - a bit more tuneul. The Nitty Gritty fluid has 10% alcohol in it and the homebrew fluid had alcohol also. The VPI does not have alcohol in it but they recommend mixing it with 15% alcohol. The VPI fluid I used - which is what we use at the store - had only about 1 or 2% alcohol in it. That was what I compared to the L'Art du Son.

The use of alcohol in record cleaning fluids has been a long running debate. I do know that it is strongly recommended not to use alcohol based fluids on 78s as it will damage the shellac. I don't know if anyone has done an actual test to see if the molecular structure of the vinyl is changed by exposure to alcohol and what length of time is required to cause a change. What we have been told is that the alcohol will not hurt the vinyl as long as the contact period is brief as it is when used with a typical vacuum record cleaner. I lean on the side of staying away from alcohol - better safe than sorry. The reason we put a little bit in the VPI fluid is that it will grow mold over time if there is no alcohol in it. But we use very little.

Although the L'Art du Son cleaning fluid is the best I've found it does require a bit more care to use it. It can also grow mold so it is best to keep it in a dark glass bottle and keep it out of sunlight - I mix up small batches as I need them. It also doesn't stay in suspension - it will settle over time. Because of this you need to shake it before you use it. This means you can't just pour it into the reserviors of cleaning machines that have them - unless you want to pick up the machine and shake it before each use. :) It works quite well with a VPI HW16.5 as that has no reservoir. I keep some fluid in an half liter squeezebottle and use that for wetting the record.

On to the stylus cleaner. I have not used the AT vibrating pad cleaner but we have a Goldring one at the store and it works quite well. It is the device we turn to when a stylus is brought in which is really gunked up with something that the other stylus cleaners such as silly putty or the Linn green paper can't effectively remove. The Goldring will always be able to get the gunk off. I have seen the AT-637 and it appears to work the same way as the Goldring so I suspect it would work just as well.

Here is a possible product for Fredrik to look into. Nobody seems to make a good vibrating pad stylus cleaner anymore - or even a good brush like the old Discwasher SC2. It would be nice to have something like the AT stylus cleaner available again.

Lastly cartridge demagnetizers. I haven't tried one myself but we took a phono stage that had one built in on trade towards a Linto. While my coworkers were testing out the unit they tried out the demagnetizer on the Akiva and said that it made a substantial improvement in the sound. We have talked about the possibility of getting one for the store that we could rent out but haven't done it so far. We are not a dealer for any of the companies who make them so it isn't as easy as just ordering one. I would also be interested to hear if anyone on the forum has tried one and what they thought of them.

[Music Lover]

has anyone of you guys tried the Audio-Technica AT-637 Stylus Cleaner? A small brush plate, upon which you place the needle, which, when activated, is said to vibrate away everything (well, almost anyway...) thats stuck on your needle. Anybody tried it? What´s your opinion then?

Yes I have!
It's a good combination together with "green paper".

And I have never used cleaning devices. No need if you take care of the records.

[Rudy van Gelder]

I now see that Linn themselves, in the little folder accompanying the Akiva, recommends a "dry vibrating pad". Sounds like a description of an AT-637. :)
I will do a scientific test: I have some records that I cleaned almost ten years ago with my homebrew containing about 1/8 alcohol (I know I said earlier that it was 1/5 but I think 1/8 is closer to the truth :oops: ).
I will play them and listen closely to anything that can make me suspicious. If i can detect more noicy grooves I will inform you. Well, I will of course do the same if they sound as fine as they used to do. :)
But we have to wait - the amplifier I ordered is about two months delayed. It is said to arrive to me in about two weeks. I sure hope so, otherwise... :evil:

This is the first time I use Emoticons! Fun!

[Music Lover]

the amplifier I ordered is about two months delayed.

Is it the new Magik integrated amp?
Did you compared it with some other Linn amps before ordering?

[Rudy van Gelder]

No, it´s not a Linn Magik. In fact it´s not a Linn at all.

Of all the Linn-related forums on the net I have chosen this one to write in because I don´t think this is as religious as some of the others. You guys have given me the impression of being more open minded than people use to be in other Linn related forums.

Part of my philosophy - if there is one,sometimes I doubt - is to dream about future fabulous experiences from my records made possible by esoteric equipment that I read about.

We all know there are thousands of different cables, amplifiers, loudspeakers, record players, tonearms and so on. Not to speak of all the combinations. And add to that all the different rooms... Well, there are probably billions of combinations out there.
Consequently it´s impossible to find "the best".

So what to do? You can´t test but a fraction of the stuff at your home, and then you probably would have difficulties remembering exactly how the stuff you auditioned a year ago sounded compared to what you´re listening to now. So, again, what to do?

I read about the stuff, try to figure out what the reviewer actually says, try to imagine how the other equipment he listens to colors his opinions, what music he uses to review equipment and so on.
And then I start to build my believe and faith - and after a certain process I have built a believe that this amplifier, or that cable or that...whatever, will, finally, reveal what´s conserved in the grooves of my records. And quite often, I must say, have I succeeded to discover new things. At least, that´s what I think.
And now I have ordered this new amplifier :P. Unheard... :|

I have had two very illuminating listening experiences which teached me a lot. Once I listened to a guy´s system that was very good. It appeared he had systematically bought hi-end stuff which at that time were considered simply the best - and most expensive. This was almost 20 years ago so I may be a little vague, but I think it was Krell and/or Audio Research amplification, Martin Logan loudspeakers and an Oracle record deck with an Air Tangent tonearm and some fancy cartridge.
Yes, that was a very fine, a good system.
Then I came to another guy. He had an LP12, Ittok & Troika, I think this was even pre-Cirkus and pre-Lingo, a Stax preamp, a Dynaco Stereo 35 poweramp and a pair of Sonab OA 116 Loudspeakers (these every Swede probably knows what it is, and you other people - watch out if you stumble over some!) and this system :shock: ... aaah - this was music!
This. Was. Music!!

So - I guess if you hit the musical jackpot it´s of course part skill but I also think it has a lot with just sheer luck to do.

I have ordered an Edge G3, a US integrated. I have never heard it but some people are quite exstatic about it.
I´m curious.

[Rudy van Gelder]

Well, now it´s morning and I have just read what I wrote last night... Ahem :oops: ...
I believe most of it would rather belong in a presentation of myself. I guess I have to write a real presentation.

But, talking about record and cartridge care, I have another question:
is it really possible that the diamond tip can be worn? I know a lot of people say so, and of course especially those who wants to sell new cartridges, but, as we all know, that doesn´t necessarily means it is the truth.
A diamond is the hardest materia known by anybody and vinyl is a rather soft plastic - how could it then be possible that this soft material can make the hardest stuff on the planet wear out? Even if we consider the high velocity and heat in vinyl play back?
Or are there differences in the quality of the diamonds used? Allaerts, for instance, states a far longer lifetime than Linn, may be two or three times longer. Does that mean that Linn uses inferior diamonds?

OK, I can understand that the rubber parts can dry out, but I have also heard that the best way to avoid that is to let the cartridge work.

So, if the two statements above are true - a diamond tip will not wear out and to avoid drying of the suspension, let it work - then that leaves us with: many hours on an MC doesn´t have to be a drawback.

What do you say? Is this true or false? :roll:

[lejonklou]

Interesting about the Edge G3, Rudy. Please tell us how you like it.

Regarding styluses, the diamonds are worn out. That is what you look for with a microscope; the wear on both sides of the tip caused by playing the vinyl.

If you look at how large the contact area of the diamond tip is compared to the total contact area of all the LP's you have played in the life of the stylus, I think you will be quite impressed with how little the diamond wears.

I sincerely hope Linn keeps the high standard of their diamond tips. There is currently a world wide shortage of high quality stylus tips, which is likely to push prices up and make the not-so-serious manufacturers use lower grade tips. The price of the Adikt was raised earlier this week, possibly due to this.

[Rudy van Gelder]

Aha, so that´s what you look for in the microscope - I´ve often wondered. ( Sorry, I couldn´t resist ...)
But, yeah, the diamonds will be worn, sooner or later.

Let´s say the average length of the track on one LP-side is approximately 450 meters and the tip travel that distance in 18 minutes.
Now, let´s also say you play two of your records each night, then your tip is travelling 1800 meters in approximately 1h 45m. Let´s also say you listen to music five days a week. That´s 9000 meters and 8h 45m.
OK. Let´s now say you do this for 50 weeks each year. That means your tip travels 450 km each year and is spending 437h 30m doing so. Approximately.
How long is the claimed life time of a Linn MC? 2000 hours? 2400hours? If it´s the last alternative it means that your MC is worn out in about five or six years. Could it be that way? Sure 2500 km :shock: is a long way, but...

Jan Allaerts claims 8 - 10 000 hours on his diamond tips, which should mean they have an expected life time of approximately 20-30 years.
But you say Linn´s diamonds are of a very high standard. Fine, I like to hear that. I´ve got an Akiva myself.

But we now have three questions to deal with: are Allaerts´diamonds of even higher standard (and if so, why don´t we get those when we pay so much)? Is Allaerts lying? Or are Linn MCs as good as Allaerts, life time-wise, but Linn wants us to believe the tip is worn out so we buy more cartridges?

What do you other people think :?:

About the Edge: it is said to be shipped to Sweden in the beginning of november. :? When I see it I believe it. And then I will of course let those of you who are interested, know a little more about it.

Which also means that my pseudo-scientific research considering record cleaning fluid with alcohol will have to wait. But during this time passed I´ve read on Mike Fremer´s site that they use alcohol in the fluid. I´ve also read in the leaflet accompanying my Moth RCM an answer to the question alcohol vs. record cleaning: "Isopropyl alcohol is unable to damage vinyl records no matter how often you choose to clean them. The BBC uses a very similar wet system in their Record Archives, often cleaning priceless recordings."
They don´t mention the question alcohol vs. record listening - I guess we all have to find the answer to that, individually.

I guess the debate lives on... :)

[lejonklou]

Or are Linn MCs as good as Allaerts, life time-wise, but Linn wants us to believe the tip is worn out so we buy more cartridges?

I have never replaced an MC before the tip was worn out. This is evident in the microscope and from how it sounds, so there is no "want us to believe" at play here.

Usually when they start deteriorating sound wise, people continue playing them for quite a while because they are usure of the condition and/or don't want to replace it just yet.

In my opinion, this is the biggest advantage of MM's (or any cartridge where the stylus is removable): You don't have to wonder or worry, just try a new stylus and see how much better it is.

I have no idea about the quality of the Allaerts or why they claim so many hours on their tips.

[Rudy van Gelder]

No, of course you haven´t replaced a functioning MC! I´ve never said that. And I also think, like you, that after a certain amount of hours and years you can see wear even on a diamond tip in a strong enough microscope. And I also think you´re absolutely right when you talk about the biggest advantages of MMs.
It would be very interesting if you, out of your experience, could tell us something more about this - for instance after how long time would you say one have to change the tip, wether it be MM or MC? Spread - for instance you had to replace one Arkiv after 1500h another one after 3000h? Do you work with Linn only or do you have experiences from other makes? Are there diffencies in the diamond qualities? If so between different makes? Between MCs and MMs?

I´m trying to address an area that, for me, is problematic and ewokes my curiosity. And I certainly don´t want to attack anybody or any company for that matters - I just want to ask questions.
And the main question concerns the lifetime of MCs. I don´t know how many hours for instance Linn, or Ortofon or Benz or etc, claims for an MC, but I´ve heard figures between 2 - 3000h. So I think it´s remarkable when another company claims a lifetime 4 or 5 times that for a related product. That ewokes my curiosity.

Besides - about deterioating... for the average consumer - if such an animal exists - it can be hard to tell when it´s time to change cartridge just from listening. Deterioation (spelled right?) happens over time, you get used to the sound of your equipment and after say five years you may still have the same great time listening to your records as you did five years earlier. (Another, vaguely related, issue - I wouldn´t be surprised if most vinyl spinning LP12-owners are over 50, maybe even 60?, years old with deterioating hearing capabilities...) And if you want to check in that microscope the shape of the stylus - well, it´s not easy to do that. Those things are not that frequent, for instance I don´t think my local Linn dealer got one.

So, what do you do? You probably keep the cart too long, and then after what you subjectively think is proper time (or most probably after a rave review of something fabulously new), you change it.

But the enormous difference in expected lifetime for different makes puzzles me. I thought a diamond is a diamond is a diamond... well, may be not.

Is there somebody else out there who knows or thinks something?

[Rudy van Gelder]

Addendum: I just discovered another thread on this site discussing (especially) lifetime of Akivas. Interrestingly ThomasOK reports from a person whose Akiva was worn out after two years! Some reports to have played it 2000 hours, another person says 5000 hours.
I´d like to know: are there, or are there not any quality differencies between diamond tips? And if so, in what way? Somebody knows?

[lejonklou]

I don't have any definite answers to your questions Rudy. But diamonds do come in different qualities and the shape and polishing of the tip differs a lot in quality. On top of that, you have the mounting into the cantilever, which will always differ - more or less - from perfectly straight.

Several people have mentioned that the life of the stylus depends on the conditions of the records played. Some of those advocating careful record cleaning say that the dirt does as much or more damage to the stylus than the vinyl itself does. If this is true or not surely depends on how dirty your records actually are.

Regarding MM stylus life, I have never counted the records or hours so I have no clue. The common opinion is that MC's last longer (due to lower effective tip mass?), but again I have no evidence either way.

it can be hard to tell when it´s time to change cartridge just from listening

I don't agree with you on this. When a stylus gets really worn, the music becomes very boring and all records sound like they are old and dirty. When the wear starts becoming dangerous for the records, the sound is really bad. I have not met anyone who have had doubts about the condition of their stylus when it has gone that far.

[Rudy van Gelder]

I think this is a really interesting subject - the lifetime of an MC...

I mean, had it been a car there would have been a tremendous anger among the users - "my car broke down after 30000 km but my neighbours have gone 300000 km and is still going!". But MCs... ah, that´s another world.

Where´s the magazine that´s addressing this issue? We are talking about stuff costing fortunes but which could be worn out, i.e. being worthless, in two years!? And then again exactly the same product, from the same producer, which could last double the time, maybe even triple the time! And you pay the same...

Why isn´t there a magazine dealing with these kind of questions?
Is it because of us, "audiophiles"? Is it because we´re more fond of reading about fabulous new products than of reading someone complaining about things? Yeah, maybe so - but it costs us...

Anyway, I started writing again on this forum because I promised to leave a report on how records sound that were cleaned with an alcoholbased cleaner.

I got my cleaning machine almost ten years ago. The first records were cleaned april 18 1998 with a homebrew containing distilled water, isopropylalcohol and a few drops of Kodak Photo Flu.

I have now played two of them, Stravinsky´s Rite of spring on Mercury and Helen Humes´ Songs I like to sing on Contemporary.
For my ears (and memory) it´s impossible to detect anything signaling a decrease in sound quality or record wear. They just sound great!

I´ll get back to you in another ten years with a new report.

And - if anybody is interested - my new Edge G3 sounds fine. I can now hear more than I´ve ever could from my recordings.
Afew words from my wife: "I don´t understand how we can house all these musicians from the Vienna Philharmonics, with instruments and everything, in our small living room."

[lejonklou]

"my car broke down after 30000 km but my neighbours have gone 300000 km and is still going!"

Isn't this exactly how it is with cars? Some run forever while another of the same brand and model can have multiple faults and break down much earlier.

The car companies will hopefully repair what's covered by the warranty, but if there is unusual wear I bet they would like to claim it on the driving conditions: "This car has been driven on rough and dusty country roads, causing wear to both suspension and the engine."

Which is similar to what many cartridge companies claim: The life depends on how the cartridge is used and the condition of the records you play.

Thanks for the report on those 9.5 years-since-cleaning records. Sounds reassuring. Did you clean them just once or multiple times? If it was only once, at least we know that one cleaning with an alcoholic fluid is safe. :)

[Rudy van Gelder]

I have cleaned those records only once.
The way I store and handle the records I think it´s unlikely they gather anything more than superficial dust, which I remove before playing the record by an ordinary carbon fibre brush.
But cleaning the records is an extremely boring way of spending your time, so doing it every tenth or fifteenth year might be just enough. It´s more fun to listen to music.
Or, for that matter, doing something, anything, else.

[Lego]

Hi Lejonklou, the Kuzma Vinvac RCM gets a good review by Roy Gregory; It's £400 and it looks the business if I wasn't skint I'd probably buy one,for looks alone of course:It'd look great next to my KitchenAid coffee grinder.It has a small diameter so you don't put the clean side on the grubby mat like the more expensive VPI HW16.5.Big Roy claims that functionally the 2 machines are near identical.Check it out below.

http://www.themusic.com/detail.cfm?id=9003715

Lego

[Lego]

Sorry folk this is the link I meant to leave.

http://www.kuzma.si/vinvac_cleaning_ang.html

[warrengday]

I use Last 1 to clean the mold release agent off of vinyl. Last 2 strengthens the vinyl against wear.

[Lego]

Hi folks hope you all had a good summer break.
I managed to get hold of some silly putty here in the yUK at www.SevenAgain.co.uk and I must say the results are very pleasing.The first thing I noticed was that all the dirt I thought was on my records was actually on my stylus;all of a sudden records sound really clean virtually no surface noise and obviously better tune dem.The best part is hearing the Klunk at the end of the side;not realising that I was listening to the last track on the side.Akiva probably sounds better than new as it is squeeky clean and worn in.Combined with skeets it is now really easy to tune dem which side of the mat sounds better.Some people out there are concerned what any residue there is on the stylus can do to records,any comments troops?

[lejonklou]

Hi everyone!

I'd just like to chip in that I've been using the silly putty for more than a year now (Studslera from Teknikmagasinet in Sweden) and am very pleased with the result.

No drawbacks or problems encountered. Just drop the stylus tip on it, let it sink for 5 to 10 seconds and then lift the stylus. You can't leave the stylus tip on it for too long, as it will sink down completely into the putty. A bit like Indiana Jones into quicksand.

I use only occasionally (about once every 5 records) and whenever the stylus gets really dirty. Sticky dirt that is not removed with the use of green paper always gets removed with the putty.

Great stuff!

[monkeydevil]

I am going to have to try this studslera! But is it dry? I don't want the stylus to get damp. For some reason I visualize a little toy from the 80's called "slime" when talking about the studslera, but thats another thing right?