Record and stylus cleaners

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lejonklou
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Record and stylus cleaners

Post by lejonklou »

I'd like to know if anyone here has any experience with record cleaners. I have never needed one before, I have just cleaned the stylus and played my vinyl like Linn used to recommend and it has worked out fine.

The second hand vinyl I buy is usually of good quality and in no need of cleaning. But this last year, I've made deals on ebay and some of those hard-to-find records have arrived in really terrible condition. This has put me in a new position. As these records have been cheap, I've kept them and been thinking that maybe it's possible to clean them.

I made an experiment a few weeks back with a really bad record, one that had visible signs of having been cleaned with fluid. It was completely unlistenable with a roaring background and clicks worse than most 78 rpm records. I manually cleaned one track with an extra soft toothbrush (those have thin fibers), distilled water and clean towels to suck it up. It actually became a lot better - not perfect but playable.

If there is a reasonably priced machine that actually works, I think I'm ready to buy one. Thoughts, anyone?
Last edited by lejonklou on 2007-10-04 20:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TMV »

I have never tried to clean vinyl records but here you have some information (in swedish).

http://www.svalander.se/tips/cleaningtips.htm#maskin
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Post by lejonklou »

Thanks, TMW (and welcome to the forum!).

Yes, Svalander sells the Loricraft, which to me seems to be one of the few really serious machines. But it's very expensive... I'd like to know whether something reasonably priced, like the Okki Nokki, actually works well.
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Post by Lego »

Hi Lejonklou,
I have tried the disko stat thing shown on link above and it works quite well
except any bad clicks that were on the record usually sound a good deal louder and clearer, tho' surface noise is a good deal less;so i suppose you end up with a more dynamic record :?
I went through a phase of buying loads of original Living Stereo classical 'shaded dog' records that were 45-50 years old from e-bay USA, most were fab some really dirty with loads of surface noise but i found that each time i played an album it sounded cleaner to a point that dirt was'nt an issue anymore.Couldnt be bothered with the disko,so i didnt bother with a more esoteric machine as i would probably never use it.To be honest the surface noise that dirty records make doesnt really bother me that much as my AkivA is too busy digging out the tunes,its the really loud clicks and pops that get on my nerves and thats probably due to damage which no record cleaner can sort.You've got to as yourself how often you'd use it Lejonklou,also there is the question of which fluid to use .I'd buy an Aeropress coffee maker instead

http://www.aerobie.com/Products/aeropress_story.htm

Record cleaning is up there with dusting under your Lp12
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record cleaners

Post by bonzo »

Ive had great success with VPI 16.5..while its not their top end unit (17.5 as used by Library of Congress) it does a great job for me...i too love to buy used records online and in flea markets, then clean them up real well with the VPI. a kit with cleaning fluid, brushes etc costs 500 bucks..can be purchased thru Music Direct online
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Post by lejonklou »

Lego and bonzo, thanks for your input.

The really loud clicks you mention, Lego, is usually one of two things in my experience: 1) A scratch. Often audible multiple times. Impossible to remove completely, but can be reduced if there is a ridge that can be lowered, or 2) A hard, dried contamination that is attached to the record and can be removed.

Very few of my records are scratched, so I have removed most loud clicks physically while watching the record surface with a magifying glass. I wonder what category the clicks you mention falls into?

I agree with you that the question is how much I'd actually use the cleaning machine. That is why I am looking for advice here... The problem with asking other audio enthusiasts on other forums is that many turntables/arms/cartridges out there really focus on faults (such as clicks and surface noise). Some even claim this to be a golden rule; the better the turntable, the more the faults will show. These people always say record cleaning is absolutely essential, and yes, if I had to live with that expensive Thoréns we had in the shop where I worked in the 90's, I would probably feel the same.

I think it's the other way around: The better the turntable, the less you hear of the surface noise and the less the clicks disturb the music. You will probably agree, as this has been evident on every LP12 that I have upgraded and the customers have all said the same thing.

Also when developing my phono preamps Hudik/Slipsik/Kinki it has been evident that the better the phono preamp gets and the more rock steady the circuit is, the less it will be disturbed by clicks. The audible result is that the noise seems to move away from the music instead of mixing and interfering with it.

But now I have perhaps 20 old favourites that are in really bad shape. And then I thought if the cleaning actually works, I might try it.

So bonzo, the VPI 16.5 does a good job? Hm, another one to consider then.
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Post by Lego »

Too true Lejonklou ,if a turntable conveys clicks and pops clearly it should also be very good at conveying that what we have is merely a finest nude diamond stylus getting dragged along a piece of plastic or maybe vice versa.Anyway good luck and if you find a cleaner and fluid that works really well and no black art is required I'll be out there buying it.
Also i find that wobbly speakers can emphasise surface noise.


Thanks for your time

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Post by bonzo »

lejonklou,
i have no complaints at all of the vpi...but for only 20 lps..this may not be worth it. im sure some local dealers/shops offer cleaning services for x amount per side/album for example. as for the vi, i will say ive bought albums in real bad shape, dirty, dusty, moldy...almost unplayable, ran them through the vpi, and all is good. guess it depends if you plan to buy many more lps in "rough" shape, then the price you pay for the vpi could very well be made up in the lower cost you pay for these albums in rough shape
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Post by ThomasOK »

Fredrik, I'm going to second bonzo on the VPI HW16.5. For cleaning a few records at a time it does a good job for not a lot of money ($500US). We have their latest top unit the HW27 or Typhoon ($2000US) and it does a great job. I used to own a HW17F myself ($1300US) and was quite happy with it but I didn't use it enough to justify the cost (and we have the 27 in the store) so I sold it. But if I didn't have access to the Typhoon I'd buy a 16.5 in a heartbeat.

All the VPIs have a motorized platter/clamp and a good vacuum system. The 16.5 just has you apply the fluid and hold the brush by hand. I tried another inexpensive unit made by Nitty Gritty and was not happy with it. Cleaning a record on the VPI that had previously been cleaned by the Nitty Gritty reduced the surface noise by something like 60% whereas the Nitty Gritty had hardly touched it.

I know the Loricraft are good but they are expensive and time consuming. I have not used any of the other units by ClearAudio and others but most seem to mimic the VPI for more money (though admittedly often with better looks).

If you do get a record cleaner I recommend you try the L'Art du Son record cleaning fluid. It is a bio-degradeable, environmentally friendly formula that was developed by a woman chemist/analog devotee. It was recommended to me by a fellow Linn dealer and I like it quite a bit. The record fluid you use can affect the sound of the record and the L'Art du Son leaves the record sounding better than the stock VPI fluid. It is what I use on any records I need to clean although, like you, I don't bother unless it is a really dirty record.
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Post by bonzo »

ok, on a related cleaning topic...regarding stylus..just how often should one use the "green paper" linn provides?
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Post by lejonklou »

Thank you for the advice, Thomas!

The part about Nitty Gritty, of which I have read quite a few positive reports, is particularly interesting. Do you have any idea what model it was that you tested? I am not sure it matters, as I believe the brush-suction part is similar or the same between the different models. And it is also available on machines of other brands, like the very cheap and compact KAB EV-1:
http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/rcleaner.htm

As the parts are similar to the ones used in the Nitty Gritty Model 1 and the VPI is reportedly so much better, I should perhaps avoid the KAB...

bonzo: I use the greeen paper after each record. Just one or two strokes. Note that the paper does not touch the same area that is in contact with the record, so it does not affect how long the stylus will last.

Usually the stylus becomes clean with the green paper, but occasionally, the stylus gets deposits that don't easily fall off. On most styluses, this is visible when looking at the tip from the right angle and with sufficient light (this requires some practice). In the right angle, the clean stylus will be clear like glass. At least once or twice in the life of my styluses, I need to clean them with a pad wetted with a tiny amount of alcohol to remove sticky dirt.

Please note, however, that alcohol can dry out the rubber in the suspension of the cantilever. The use of it should therefore be minimised.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Fredrik,
The unit I had was called the Disk Doctor and was made by Nitty Gritty for Audio Advisor. It is similar to the Models 1.0 and 2.0 but with a more basic case and without the built-in storage section for the fluid and brush. I found the recommended method of fluid application a pain as the record is only supported on the nozzle and at the center. I ended up putting the record on a rubber mat on a table and brushing the fluid on there. Then I would transfer it to the machine for vacuuming. Still it really didn't seem to clean the record very well. I think part of that may be the velvet brush which doesn't seem to get into the grooves as well as the plastic bristle brush that comes with the VPI. Also I think the VPI fluid is better although the L'Art du Son is better yet.

bonzo,
On your question about stylus cleaning I don't believe there is any problem using the green paper frequently. However, we have found another stylus cleaner that gets off most residue that isn't really caked on and is gentle to the stylus. Believe it or not it is plain old Silly Putty. You just take a little blob of Silly Putty, put it on a coin and set it on the platter. You then cue the stylus down onto it a few times and your stylus is clean. Make sure you get regular Silly Putty - not the glow in the dark stuff.

I know this sounds funny but we have a high-power stereo microscope that we use for checking stylus condition and the Silly Putty does a better job of cleaning than about anything we've found and it leaves no residue at all. If a stylus has some really caked on grunge we will use the green paper or a vibrating pad cleaner to break it up and then use the Silly Putty to remove the remaining residue. We find it interesting that a company is selling a product called Zerodust that does the same thing as the Silly Putty but sells for $69US in a nice acrylic case. Silly Putty, on the other hand, sells for under $1.00! And one of our customers who has tried both tells us that the Silly Putty works better than the Zerodust. Makes us wonder why we never put Silly Putty in a nice case and sold it for $49. :D
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Post by Broccoli »

Ok, now I want to know where to buy Silly Putty in Sweden! (Or some web shop in the US that will ship to Europe?)
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Silly Putty

Post by Ceilidh »

At last, something I can comment on! :D

Broccoli, you can buy Silly Putty through the U.S. Amazon site (the site says they'll ship internationally):

http://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/104-29 ... .y=0&Go=Go

As you can see, it's a kid's toy. When I was little, one of the many ways of playing with it was to make newspaper "pictures": if you spread the putty over newsprint (we used to do it with comic strips) and then peel it off, so much of the ink would adhere to the putty that you'd have a perfect reversed image -- so I imagine it can be a pretty good cleaner.

Another neat thing about it is that it's a fairly classic (in the U.S.) non-Newtonian Viscoelastic material: at low strain rates (i.e., deform it slowly) it acts like a viscous fluid, but at higher rates it behaves like an elastic solid. Hence you can mold it like putty, but it'll bounce like high-grade rubber; pull it apart slowly, it'll deform like taffy, but pull it hard and it'll fracture with a sharp "Snap!". We use it all the time in the physics labs to teach the students rheology. Neat stuff, and lots of fun.

:D

-C
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Post by lejonklou »

Bloody fantastic tips here!!

I have seen Zerodust but had no idea there was a similar substance around. Will try it for sure.

Broccoli: If you are ordering some right away, please add one for me. I will be visiting your city soon (demonstrating the Kinki), if we're lucky it will arrive in time for that.
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Post by Broccoli »

Thanks Ceilidh!

Fredrik: If I take the time to order I will! (Though I want to check if it's availible inside the EU first, you can be forced to pay customs and handling fees when ordering from the US. It's the fee that is the expensive thing when ordering for such small amounts.)
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Post by Broccoli »

Hmm, British Amazon has something called Bouncing Putty, I wonder if that's the same thing?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/2-packs-of-boun ... 733&sr=8-1
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Post by lejonklou »

Actually, I rember this substance from Ceilidh's description. It was around here perhaps 15 years ago? Maybe it still is, I will have a look at the toy stores!
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Post by Broccoli »

What was it called in Sweden? (I was thinking Slime at first, but that was something else I think.)
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Post by lejonklou »

The bouncing putty might be the right stuff, the descriptions sure seem very similar.

'Studslera' in Swedish?
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Post by Broccoli »

lejonklou wrote: 'Studslera' in Swedish?
Available att Hobbex! The box actually says "Jumping putty".
http://www.hobbex.se/p/pid,1790/t/product.html
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Post by lejonklou »

I have now been reading of how it was invented during WW2 (failed attempt at making synthetic rubber), and all the putties I have seen on the net appear to be of the same material.

If you want to, I can order a bunch (minimum order 200 SEK) and see if people are interested in trying it out at the Kinki demonstration in 2 weeks.

EDIT: Just saw that it's also available at Teknikmagasinet for 25 SEK. That means it's available in many cities.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Here is a link to all kinds of info on Silly Putty. They have a web store but it only sells to the US and Canada.

http://www.sillyputty.com/

I don't know about all the variants but I did have a customer who tried one of the dayglo versions and some remained stuck to the rubber piece that protects the coils/magnet structure on the Arkiv. I managed to get it off for him but it did appear to be stickier than the original pink/coral colored putty. That's why I recommend sticking :) with the original.
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Post by qweos »

Hi (this is my first post here).

I don't have it, but in the Spanish audiophile community this is the most recommended: Máquina limpia vinilos (in spanish, I'm sorry).

Distributed by Artesanía Audio (+34 974 306 739), price: 525 €.
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Post by lejonklou »

Thanks and welcome, qweos!

That machine kind of resembles the VPI, don't you think? Never heard about it before!
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