Record and stylus cleaners

[k_numigl]

I revived the older links. It is particularly interesting to
observe the development of the Mahler Lieder. File names are:
simple washing, X2000: _se2ak
rotation brushed, X2000: _se2ak_rb
plus LADS, rot. br.: _rblads
plus AI: _rbladsai
If you are aware that the first sample which is 'simple washed' is
already much better than the un-washed LP, you get a feeling for the
potential of record cleaning.
I will try to get back to the summit by making _rbladsairblads :)
Regards, Klaus

[jiddu_k]

Hi all,

just listened to Klaus´ new files - which was great fun (like always).
I don´t think it is possible to come to a valuable verdict using a pc/laptop. Even with a MDSI you can get the point, I think (and of course I have tried) - but with a KDS/1 the differences become really stunning. Klaus´rblads files are simply the best digital material I have - way better than hdtracks 24/96 downloads for example.
On my systems (KDS/1 and MDSI) I just copy the files to my NAS and when they pop up in twonky I can play them right away. Due to the very high resolution one might get problems with powerlan connections - but at my place it´s working (devolo dLAN200, 130 mb/s connection). Since I installed Davaar 4.1.7 it is no longer possible to jump to the middle of a track, like it used to be with Cara 3.6.7 and Davaar 4.1.10. Trying to jump will result in the DS loosing the playlist.
Now to the files:
When you listen to Beethoven and Zeitlin (comparing unwashed to AI), it is quite obvious that washing LPs can make a tremendous difference. Still, already being familiar with Klaus´last rblads files, I thought that the 3 step AI treatment is inferior to the 2 step rotation brush cleaning. This is well documented by the rbladsai Mahler version, when compared to the former rblads. I´d say that the rbladsai is very close to the first rb version, which was rotation brushed with Hannls X2000 liquid, but not with LADS as a second step.
This means that the AI 3 step treatment is the best cleaning fluid, but that its great result can even be topped by rotation brushing first Hannls X2000 and then LADS.
As my s/h Hannl machine has arrived in the meantime, I will be cleaning my records this way - starting tomorrow ;).

[lejonklou]

This means that the AI 3 step treatment is the best cleaning fluid, but that its great result can even be topped by rotation brushing first Hannls X2000 and then LADS.

I really have to hear these files on a top notch system. If the above summary holds up, those files can influence the decision on what record cleaning machine (and fluids) to purchase.

It's really quite fantastic: Thanks to Klaus experiments, high quality conversion to digital files and sharing of the results in here, we're able to make a personal decision based on the actual musical effect of the cleaning! I honestly never expected that to happen. Buying a record cleaning machine has always meant taking a chance and hoping for the best. Until now.

As my s/h Hannl machine has arrived in the meantime, I will be cleaning my records this way - starting tomorrow ;).

I'm envious! Where does one find second hand Hannl machines? It does seem difficult.

[SaltyDog]

I'm just getting started on this. Only 2 files downloaded so far.

Rblads makes me smile. No doubt about it. Needle drops for tunedem purposes is so easy. Way better than 16/44. Sounds like an LP12.

I played less than 1 minute of rblandsai. More surface noise and less music.

I have not heard surface noise in awhile. Started to get up at the end of the recording. Muscle Memory I guess.

It makes me think about maxing out my LP12 and learning to rip vinyl.

Klaus and others I'll be glad to listen needle drops now.

KDS KK ATC50s

[jiddu_k]

Hi Fredrik,

I really have to hear these files on a top notch system. If the above summary holds up, those files can influence the decision on what record cleaning machine (and fluids) to purchase.

Yes, you really have to listen to those files on a good system - and I think they will make you get a Hannl machine with a rotation brush. ;)

It's really quite fantastic: Thanks to Klaus experiments, high quality conversion to digital files and sharing of the results in here, we're able to make a personal decision based on the actual musical effect of the cleaning! I honestly never expected that to happen. Buying a record cleaning machine has always meant taking a chance and hoping for the best. Until now.

Exactly, it´s fantastic - and it can take the discussions on this forum to another level. During the last months, Klaus and I have been wondering why no one ever checked out his links and made a comment on this great possibility.

By first exchanging usb sticks, then harddrives and now via cloud space I have been able to follow Klaus´ experiments over the last 18 months. Highlights have been: separation of Urika cabling, Radikal dynamic upgrade, changing Radikal internal cable direction, degaussing, torque settings, springs, cut down grommit(s), rotation brushing, 2nd step LADS rotation brushing. After a while it became clear to me, that even a KDS(/1,/2,/3) will never be able to come anywhere close to an LP12 when it comes to analog recorded/pre 80ies music. Simply because this music will never be available in tunedem-wise decently remastered high resolution. As a consequence I bought my first LP12 this spring (having left the analog world more than 15 years ago) and set it up myself using Klaus' and ThomasOKs torque settings - with great results.

So be warned - listening to his recordings will have consequences. ;)

I'm envious! Where does one find second hand Hannl machines? It does seem difficult.

Yes, it is difficult to find a s/h Hannl - but you can check out the for sale section of his forum:
http://www.hannl-vinylcare.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=27

I was very lucky that Mr. Hannl was able to offer me an ex dem machine when I first called him in July, but due to two lost emails and a misunderstanding the machine was sold to someone else in August. Afterwards Mr. Hannl offered me an upgraded s/h version of his former model Flüsterbär, which already had a rotation brush - but it was about the same price as his Micro edition. When I talked to Klaus about these two options and told him that Mr. Hannl strongly recommended the s/h machine because of the rotation brush, Klaus took the plundge and ordered a rotation brush for his Micro.

By that time none of us expected improvements that big - but listen for yourself, the difference is tremendous.

[k_numigl]

Yeah! It works! Treating the ai-ed records with the rotation brush
step 1 hannl plus step 2 lads brings back all the beauty. (rbladsairblads)
So I think to finish this issue now, proceed with other activities, and
disassemble the deck for another time (thus loosing consistency with
respect to the washing test clips).

Started to get up at the end of the recording. Muscle Memory I guess.

For that reason I continue to record the LPs side for side.

Exactly, it´s fantastic - and it can take the discussions on this forum to another level.

Jiddu, you didn't get the point: Commenting is on the choice of cleaning
machines, not LP12 mods :)).

[jiddu_k]

Exactly, it´s fantastic - and it can take the discussions on this forum to another level.

Jiddu, you didn't get the point: Commenting is on the choice of cleaning
machines, not LP12 mods :)).

Oops - and I thought it was allowed to comment on comments - sorry, will reread the forum rules, promise! :))

Just completed washing my first ten LPs with the first step: rotation brushing X2000. The Hannl Fluesterbaer works great and is easy to handle. Once you see the rotation brush in action, it becomes clear that its purpose is quite different to just dispencing the cleaning liquid - which could be done by hand or a simple brushing arm.

LADS washing step and comments on the results will follow tomorrow.

[ThomasOK]

Interesting results. I attempted to download all the files yesterday. I got five of them but the large one was still downloading when I left the store. I will check this morning and see if it finished. I will try again to see if I can get them running on our ADS/1 and let you know what I hear.

I do have one more test to suggest before you tear into your LP12 again. I do know from previous experience that there is a certain sound to the LADS fluid which does have a musical quality compared to fluids like the VPI solution. Since the AI is a fairly powerful cleaner it would be interesting to know what would happen to an AI cleaned record followed by a LADS treatment with the rotating brush but skipping the X2000 liquid. In other words would AI followed up by brushed LADS be better, worse or the same as brushed X2000 and LADS?

Just to confirm your observations of how the AI fluids work the Enzyme and Cleaner fluids do indeed coat the record and get into the grooves quite well - minimal brushing is used just to make sure the record is coated evenly. The water does not coat as well having no wetting agents in it but with a simple hand brushing it does get into the grooves and helps remove any traces of the cleaner. It is only necessary to brush it for a couple revolutions (on machines so equipped I do it in both directions) and vacuum it off.

Thanks for all the research. It looks like I may have to check further into the Hannl machine.

Yeah! It works! Treating the ai-ed records with the rotation brush
step 1 hannl plus step 2 lads brings back all the beauty. (rbladsairblads)
So I think to finish this issue now, proceed with other activities, and
disassemble the deck for another time (thus loosing consistency with
respect to the washing test clips).

Started to get up at the end of the recording. Muscle Memory I guess.

For that reason I continue to record the LPs side for side.

Exactly, it´s fantastic - and it can take the discussions on this forum to another level.

Jiddu, you didn't get the point: Commenting is on the choice of cleaning
machines, not LP12 mods :)).

[k_numigl]

You caught me in the very last moment, Thomas, but I managed to
do the requested action with 3 records. The lads helps, but not enough.
The unforced ease and beauty of the rot brushed x plus lads is
not met by far. You (no, sorry, I) really get spoiled. Samples to be uploaded later.
The question comes up: How can developers do a decent job when they
use factory quality LPs??
KLaus

[springwood64]

I'd like to add a small note of thanks to Klaus for sharing his research here. I had not considered cleaning to be more than removing the gunk that cakes some charity shop purchases. I'm now wondering if I would be better off investing in a good RCM and cleaning regime than in upgrading my LP12 ...

[lejonklou]

I had not considered cleaning to be more than removing the gunk that cakes some charity shop purchases.

Neither had I just a couple of years ago. But then I had some experiences that told me otherwise. Cleaning records became more than just cleaning off other people's dirt, it actually improved brand new records! I am still confused by this - how come the vinyl isn't perfect when it's brand new?

Another issue I have is why Linn have kept quiet all these years. They have improved the wonderful LP12 in so many steps - and I have followed and praised nearly all of them (Mogami T-kable a big exception) - and they have also recorded and produced vinyl of their own. Still they haven't provided any kind of information regarding how to clean your records. Rather the opposite: I was repeatedly told that cleaning the stylus was all that was necessary. Considering their deeply invested knowledge in this field, I am seriously disappointed. I wouldn't have done the same.

[jiddu_k]

Finished cleaning the first batch yesterday and started listening.

Wow - that was fun. Had to listen through the whole first record (both sides) in a kind of flash back to the time when I first heard this recording 25 years ago (Koinonia - LA TopNotch JazzRock-Band). Soundstage is a lot bigger, which helps to distinguish between the instruments. Bass is much more precise (like basically everything else) and feels a lot deeper and bigger. There are a lot of things I´ve never heard that clearly before - phrases in the background, deepness of the instruments sounds, reverberation being such a crucial part of the overall guitar sound, some of the passing notes within fast musical phrases, the excellent phrasing of those frequent unisono lines, interaction and musical flow in general - both within one instrument and between different ones.
The next records were an Elvis record from my wifes collection and Horace Silver´s Song for my father - now, before anybody comments :)) I know this is a strange selection, but I had to wait for my degausser to get working again, as it shut itself down while degaussing the next record. All showing the same improvements - vocals become more natural, more alive, the progress of tension is easier to follow and has a lot more nuances to it, groove is more infectious. The music is so strong, it makes you listen.

I had not considered cleaning to be more than removing the gunk that cakes some charity shop purchases. I'm now wondering if I would be better off investing in a good RCM and cleaning regime than in upgrading my LP12 ...

I think you should seriously consider this. In my system cleaning records this way brings at least the same level of improvement that the Rubikon brought (vs. the standard sub-chassis).
But when you think about it, it makes perfect sense - how much more "source first" can you go than cleaning records?

[k_numigl]

Congrats getting the Washing Bear in action, JK! Isn't it really kind
if hypnotizing staring at the simultaneous rotations of brush and platter?

I'm now wondering if I would be better off investing in a good RCM and cleaning regime than in upgrading my LP12 ...

From todays experience I would not go for an improvement with respect to
an arm or a cartridge without getting the LPs to their best state. Not to
mention the vast expenses of going aktiv and the like which make no
sense unless the source is optimized . And as JK mentioned, the record is
_very_ close to the source....

I am still confused by this - how come the vinyl isn't perfect when it's brand new?

That were exactly my thoughts, too. But later it sprang to my mind that
they even sell CDs _and_ stated them as being perfect and better than
anything previously available. And I just had a big disappointment with
those infamous 45 rpm LPs.

why Linn have kept quiet all these years

Well, they don't sell RCMs.... To remain serious, my impression is that
Linn keeps off issues that could potentially repell an 'ordinary'
customer and give the impression that vinyl and LP12 is a thing for
persons only who fiddle about it all the day over. I remember the
discussion about the Radikal's shelf sensibility was blocked even on
the LP12 factory day. No comment ever on degaussing (they do know).
etc.etc. Perhaps one should not complain too heavily: They produce the
stuff we enjoy.

[jiddu_k]

Congrats getting the Washing Bear in action, JK! Isn't it really kind if hypnotizing staring at the simultaneous rotations of brush and platter?

Hi Klaus, it is kind of hypnotizing to watch and handle the machine, yes. Maybe that´s the reason why it isn´t exhausting to wash for an hour or so.

my impression is that Linn keeps off issues that could potentially repell an 'ordinary' customer and give the impression that vinyl and LP12 is a thing for persons only who fiddle about it all the day over.

This would explain the new Linn homepage concept as well. I don´t think anyone new to Linn will be able to find out that they sell turntables, preamps and amps as well. My first impression was that they basically stopped to sell anything except DSM and active speakers.

[ThomasOK]

I am still confused by this - how come the vinyl isn't perfect when it's brand new?

That were exactly my thoughts, too. But later it sprang to my mind that
they even sell CDs _and_ stated them as being perfect and better than
anything previously available. And I just had a big disappointment with
those infamous 45 rpm LPs.

why Linn have kept quiet all these years

Well, they don't sell RCMs.... To remain serious, my impression is that
Linn keeps off issues that could potentially repell an 'ordinary'
customer and give the impression that vinyl and LP12 is a thing for
persons only who fiddle about it all the day over. I remember the
discussion about the Radikal's shelf sensibility was blocked even on
the LP12 factory day. No comment ever on degaussing (they do know).
etc.etc. Perhaps one should not complain too heavily: They produce the
stuff we enjoy.

I tend to agree with Klaus' assessment of Linn's motives here. I think they feel that they need to appeal to the customer who values musical quality, solidity of construction and simplicity and that the "Audiophile fringe" will take care of themselves. After all, they have the forum for those more serious about the hobby. You can see this in a number of places: the suggestion to not clean records, the quietness about the performance advantages of good equipment stands/racks, of degaussing, of optimizing the digital feed to the DS, etc. Even their caginess in really explaining the relative musical quality of the DSM units compared to the similar DS pieces in the product announcements and on the forum shows an attempt to avoid getting into nuances. Of course, on the digital gear there also seems to be a bit of a split personality at Linn with some of the engineers apparently tending toward the "it's all 1s and 0s" mentality (in essence saying that the HD, NAS, switch, Ethernet cabling, etc. make no difference) and other engineers seeming to accept that such things may play a role. Despite that, the public face mostly gives the implication that those things are no big deal - just plug a DS in an you are good to go. Again I think they are afraid of scaring off potential customers. And, let's face it, they are certainly at least somewhat right in that fear. If, as a salesperson, I were to start discussing sonic differences of HDs and Ethernet cables with potential customers I would have many of them running for the door. My job is to let them hear how musical they are, show them how cool they are to operate, and then try my best to steer them in the right direction when it comes to the digital feed. I am helped in this by the fact that many of the best sounding components (ReadyNAS, Seagate Constellation HDs, Netgear switches, etc.) have good reputations within the IT industry and are competitively priced. But it would be nice if they were at least more forthcoming on the forums.

All that said there is also danger in them recommending things like record cleaning machines. With all the machines out there, several of which are ineffective, and all the different cleaning fluids with their different abilities and sound, just recommending you get a record cleaning machine might not help many customers. And I don't think it is really Linn's place to test all the different cleaning machines and fluids out there to make solid recommendations (that appears to be our job ;-).

On the question of why new records need cleaning I think it is answered by the explanation of how the mold release compound works. Besides, considering Klaus' comments on the "Perfect Sound Forever" CD do you really think the record companies would clean the records before they send them out? Furthermore, would you really want them to clean your records? Do you actually think they would do the kind of proper job that people like us are trying to do ???!!!

No, all in all I think that record cleaning for utmost musical quality is going to remain a self serve process. And it will continue to be up to members of forums like this to help each other achieve the best that their systems are capable of. I am just glad that Fredrik decided to get back into the forum "business" when the Topica Linn list started to go South and that it has attracted such a high level of those truly devoted to the MUSICAL quality of their systems.

Now I just need to save up some money for one of those darn Hannl machines!

[springwood64]

I am just glad that Fredrik decided to get back into the forum "business" when the Topica Linn list started to go South and that it has attracted such a high level of those truly devoted to the MUSICAL quality of their systems.

+1 :D

[k_numigl]

One should not bash the record industry! I just found with much
enjoyment the following on the inner sleeve
Use NEW EMITEX Record Cleaner. The use of NEW EMITEX provides an
effective means of ensuring groove cleanliness so essential to good
reproduction.
of a late 50s record. I do feel supported.... K.

[lejonklou]

I have been listening to Klaus' clips today, under more optimal conditions than last time. And I'm having some serious doubts.

Just like I mentioned before, that I detected a pitch instability in the Rotation Brushed version of Monk, I have now compared the clip mahler_ludwig_sings_emi-d_s1_se2ak_V2 with mahler_ludwig_sings_emi-d_s1_rbtest and my impressions are similar.

While the _rbtest file (cleaned with rotation brush) is certainly more delicate, refined and with seemingly more information, it is also musically a bit confused compared to _se2ak_V2. Both timing and pitch "wanders" slightly instead of being accurate.

I will continue comparing some other files later today.

[lejonklou]

My initial gut reaction is that the 'mahler_fahrender_ludwig_se2ak_rbladsai.wav' file WITH AI Fluids is more tuneful than without, but I'm at work using a laptop and some office headphones and not too reliable at it anyway, but you did want more participation! ;O)

I agree with this. It has better timing WITH the AI fluids.

As Saltydog mentioned, there is less surface noise on the clip with L'Art du Son. But I think it makes less sense musically.

Of the four clips of this wonderful piece of music, mahler_ludwig_sings_emi-d_s1_se2ak_V2 (no rotation brush, no AI fluids and no L'Art du Son, but cleaned with the Hannl Micro using their own fluids?) makes the most sense to me. I just listened again from 1:47, where each instrument is contributing and building up the momentum. On the three other clips, there is different amounts of confusion in the orchestra.

Are there any other clips of this music, with other treatments or perhaps before any cleaning began?

[k_numigl]

I'll check this evening what I have. Must be a couple more. Good you
commented, I started to clean up my disk (always too small) but those
files should be there still.
BR, Klaus

[paolo]

Hi all,
I've compared with KDS/1 four of Klaus' files. I've found the whole thing VERY interesting and I VERY much appreciate the work Klaus has done. Results are somewhat surprising:

1) monk_aloneinsf_s1_se2ak_rb.wav
2) monk_aloneinsf_s1_se2ak.wav

These should be Rotational Brush whashing against simple washing (I think using Hannl liquid, right?).

I find 1) clearer, subtler and more spacious but clearly less musical, mainly because of timing being oddly diluted and messed up. Timely acurate starts and stops of notes and dynamic variations are somehow gone.

1) 0040_zeitlin_s2_AIohne.wav
2) 0041_zeitlin_s2_AI.wav

These I understand is no cleaning against cleaned with AI fluid.
Again I find something similar to the previous comparison with the s2_AIohne (no cleaning) file sounding less open and clean but more exact, engaging and tuneful. N.2) file has to me a really confused and flattened timing. When things get complex I find the music much harder to follow.

So again that's great work Klaus and a fantastic instrument to compare and understand: thank you! Results are for me the opposite I'd hoped and expected but I'd really like to investigate further so I join to Fredrik's request, if possible, of some more clips of uncleaned<->cleaned albums.

Many thanks!
Paolo

[k_numigl]

but clearly

?

less musical,

??

mainly because of timing being oddly diluted

???

Timely acurate starts and stops of notes and dynamic variations are somehow gone.

????

[lejonklou]

I can understand the confusion, Klaus. My findings are similar to Paolo's, as I found the clips that had been cleaned with rotation brush sounded more "delicate", but were musically more confused. Using different clips of different pieces of music, we both seem to arrive at the conclusion that it becomes more HiFi and less music.

What I am interested in right now, is how the records sounded before any kind of cleaning began. It seems Paolo have such a clip, or perhaps I misunderstood. I will search through this (long!) thread to see whether I've missed something.

[lejonklou]

Two samples for illustrating the effect of AI washing on previously untreated LPs:
Beethoven Pianoconcerto 5, ABM playing
uncleaned:
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/d3BhHbJK
AI treated:
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/EYBhHA3J

And Denny Zeitlin, Charlie Haden playing live
uncleaned
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/eJBBn5sq
AI treated:
https://www.hidrive.strato.com/lnk/vDhhnLx4

The above quote is from page 5. Are the files you mention here completely uncleaned records versus cleaned with the AI 3-step process on your Hannl Micro (no rotation brush or any other fluids)?

I have listened to the first two files and find the uncleaned clip better. Although a bit harsh and flat sounding, the pianist is better and his piano is well tuned.

On the cleaned record, the sound is more smooth and spacious, but the pianist is performing worse (being vague and insecure instead of exactly on time) and the piano is less in tune (loosing pitch accuracy when the keys are struck hard).

I don't have anything protect in this matter and would love to be proven wrong. But so far it appears that I strongly prefer uncleaned records.

[k_numigl]

I found the clips that had been cleaned with rotation brush sounded more "delicate", but were musically more confused.

?????

we both seem to arrive at the conclusion that it becomes more HiFi and less music.

??????!
?