Matching components

sommerfee · Post by **sommerfee** » 2007-09-08 18:15

I have tried both AV5103 and Exotik with Klouts (on Espeks) and found out that both combinations where not satisfying for me, so I switched back to Kairn Pro. I don't know why, but Kairn+Klout are such a homogenized combination which is (in my ears) hard to beat, no matter how much other pre-amplifiers are in certain (or even all other?) aspects, especially tune-dem. Investing in the source (e.g. Ikemi => Unidisk 1.1) was a far better decision for me.

Another problem was that the AV5103 was moving the stage more close to the listener compared to the Kairn. But since the distance between me and my speakers is usually about 2m, this was too near with AV5103, too "direct", it was not possible to listen to a very long period anymore. (I use to sit in the 12-20th row in concerts, not in the 1st row.) Changing the Klouts with AV5125 solved this problem, AV5103+5125 was an equal homogenic combination, and the stage distance was ok (again), but I really like the satisfying, touching "sound" of the Klouts.

Yes, I know, I have strange ears :lol:

Axel

P.S.: Beside that, you have to take care about used Exotiks, the very early models sounded quite different than the later ones, bloodless and two-dimensional in my ears.

sommerfee · Post by **sommerfee** » 2007-09-10 09:52

lejonklou wrote: I haven't had any bad experience with Exotiks the way Axel describes. Did you encounter this bloodless sound in more than one unit, Axel? If it was only one, I would suspect it was faulty.

It was more than one, we did a lot of comparisons. And one unit was even "upgraded" by Linn Germany, although the official standpoint was that there were no differences between Exotiks at all.

(This is all I want to write in public about that, please understand.)

Post by **lejonklou** » 2007-09-10 10:31

I see... thank you for reporting this, Axel!

I will pay attention to this when trading in any old Exotiks. And yes, the official standpoint is that there were no upgrades done to the Exotik. There is also only one software available. There were some pre-production units that had a different software, those units should have the final software installed.

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2007-09-10 16:55

I am surprised you did not prefer a 5103 to kairn pro, was the phase inverted when you changed, this can make a difference.

Ceilidh · Post by **Ceilidh** » 2007-09-11 07:30

sommerfee wrote:I have tried both AV5103 and Exotik with Klouts (on Espeks) and found out that both combinations where not satisfying for me, so I switched back to Kairn Pro. I don't know why, but Kairn+Klout are such a homogenized combination which is (in my ears) hard to beat, no matter how much other pre-amplifiers are in certain (or even all other?) aspects, especially tune-dem.....

.....Changing the Klouts with AV5125 solved this problem, AV5103+5125 was an equal homogenic combination, and the stage distance was ok (again), but I really like the satisfying, touching "sound" of the Klouts.

Yes, I know, I have strange ears :lol:

Axel

Hello Sommerfee (Axel!),

Your comments here reminded me of a conversation I had last year with a Linn sales support engineer who liked to experiment with all sorts of (frequently unorthodox) combinations, just to see what they'd be like. Like you, he felt that certain amp/preamp combinations were much more satisfying than others, despite the on-paper merits / ranking of the individual components, and his recommendations were very similar to yours. (And as he was helping advise me on my own modest system, he extended those recommendations down several pricepoints as well: e.g., he thought both the 5105 and the 5125 would be a disaster with my little Classik Music, but ideal for a 5103 I was bidding on at the time; conversely, the Classik on its own would go well with an LK140 or even a Klout -- despite the latter combo's grave violation of Source First. (And my limited experience has borne him out: Classik+140 was very nice; Classik + Klout (despite the Source First violation) has been even better....))

Would you know why this situation exists? Is it a matter of LK-components going best with other LK pieces, and AV (or post-AV) with AV? And if so, why? Was there a conscious decision by Linn to change the character of their sound at some point? Was there massive turnover among key engineering staff between the LK and AV generations? Or is it just a matter of normal evolution over time?

Anyway, just wondering! :D

-C

monkeydevil · Post by **monkeydevil** » 2007-09-11 07:52

Moderator; a new topic for this maybe (after all this is Visoflex' thread...

)?

Also, does this kind of thinking (matching components) aply for pre-amplifiers in relation to power amplifiers mainly? I mean, a better source should always be better, right?

sommerfee · Post by **sommerfee** » 2007-09-11 09:36

anthony wrote:I am surprised you did not prefer a 5103 to kairn pro, was the phase inverted when you changed, this can make a difference.

If this was a comment for me: Yes, I thought of this and I always double-check any change in my hifi system. (And both units have been compared to another Kairn/5103, there were ok. And at a first (and second) listen the 5103 was clearly better than the Kairn, otherwise I would not have bought it.)

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2007-09-11 10:03

I agree, we need a new thread.
"Tune dem vs sound"?

I understand people frefer certain combinations over others from a sound perspective and personal preferences, BUT following tune dem, a better pre, power amp, souce enhance the tune.
Based on my expereince; Kairn < 5103 < Exotik, even if Klout used behind.

I agree, 5103/Exotik (and 5125) is more anemic sounding.

Sorry for the OT

Post by **lejonklou** » 2007-09-11 11:17

// The above selected messages were cut from 'Viso's system' due to the subject turning into whether certain components need to be matched when making a really good system.

sommerfee · Post by **sommerfee** » 2007-09-11 13:48

Music Lover wrote:"Tune dem vs sound"?

The funny thing is that for my person Linn is responsible for both, learning and appreciating Tune-Dem, but also for reviving the "sound" criteria.

"Tune-Dem" is for me a synonymous for "understanding music", the better a component is regarding tune-dem, the easier it is to get an intuitive understanding of the musical piece. On a hifi stereo with worse tune-dem, Mahler sounds for me like a work from the "Einstürzenden Neubauten" :mrgreen: So tune-dem is for my brain. If I don't "understand" the music, don't get a door to it, then I don't want to listen to it. (And I think for that reason very many "audiophiles" are only listening to rather un-complex "audiophile" musical pieces, because their stereos are so worse in terms of tune-dem.)

"Sound is irrelevant", I thought this until Linn had all this new gear called 2250, Exotik, ... But if Kathleen Ferrier sings the "Kindertotenlieder" and I do not get touched, than I simply don't need to listen to it, why should I? While Kairn+Klout has raised the number of CDs I want to listen to, the combi Exotik+2250 has decimated it for me. So I would finally say: "Sound is for my soul."

At the end it seems that both of them are absolutely important for me, only a "right" combination to satisfy both will raise the number of CDs and broaden the musical taste.

But it has also a bad aftertaste: The only actual Linn components I really like are the Classik, the Unidisk 1.1 (and Akurate CD!? Haven't heard it so far) and the Klimax stuff. (Yes, I know, I have strange ears. :mrgreen: )

BUT following tune dem, a better pre, power amp, souce enhance the tune.
Based on my expereince; Kairn < 5103 < Exotik, even if Klout used behind.

I agree.

Axel

Post by **lejonklou** » 2007-09-11 14:27

I like where this discussion is heading because it's not easy to find a perfectly straight standpoint...

Of all the devoted Tune Method enthusiasts I have met, I can not recall one who has actually cared nothing about the sound. They have almost all, at some point, said something in the lines of "I prefer speaker X because it has that very dry bass" or "Yes, that combination is better, but I would still prefer to own this one".

So, to me it seems we all favour a particular sound and the more a system drifts away from that sound, the more likely we are to give up a bit of tunefulness. Personally I consider myself far out on the Tune Method end of the scale, but I admit to having my limits regarding sound. Mostly this shows in choice of speaker - I have some opinions there which I can't explain with the Tune Method.

Regarding the matching of components, I feel very sceptical. But this could partly be due to the fact that it is a very widespread and accepted concept in the audiophile community - and I consider their "sound hobby" to be fundamentally different from my mine.

So, when saying that I am not an audiophile and that I don't believe in the necessity of matching components, I might have gone a tiny bit too far. Because sound-wise, I agree that some combinations can sound rather sweet to the ears. I just don't think it's as important as the performance in Tune Dem.

The statements from the sales guy that Ceilidh mentioned sounded grossly exaggerated IMHO.

Ceilidh · Post by **Ceilidh** » 2007-09-11 20:07

lejonklou wrote: The statements from the sales guy that Ceilidh mentioned sounded grossly exaggerated IMHO.

Oh, I don't want to misquote him! (And he's not a sales guy -- I don't know the right term for his position, but he's one of the Linn engineers in the back room who's called to come sort things out when everything's completely screwed up. This fellow loves audio, is a classical guitarist, and has been absolutely first rate at helping me and my parents set up our systems -- a real gentleman, and an enthusiast!) I must have misquoted him very badly, because nothing he actually said should seem "grossly exaggerated" in the context of what's appeared in this forum. My apologies, to him and to all of you, and let me try again (this time, much more fully!):

What he said to me was that whilst a balanced system with a source-first emphasis is the general goal, the goal-ward steps taken by someone like me (who's working very slowly, piece by piece as finances and opportunity permit) are not always straightforward -- and since the evolving system may at times be out of balance, attention should be paid to how the specific components in an unbalanced system might interact. That is, there are some intermediate system configurations that will sound much better than others, and care should be taken to "match" these intermediate components -- otherwise, the ultimate endgoal might be ultimately nice, but the steps along the way can be suboptimal indeed.

In my situation, I'm starting with Classik Music + Ninka, and jumping to a clearly superior Source & Preamp is financially a big step. As enhanced amplification is not that expensive (on the used market), it can make sense for me to buy a good amplifier first, and then hang onto the amp as I improve the source & pre later on -- this, despite the (temporary) violation of Source First. But if I do that, I have to be careful what generation amp I seek out. In particular, whilst a 5105 or a 5125 can work nicely in a final system with a good preamp and source (e.g., 5103 + Ikemi or Unidisk), this engineer had found from personal listening experience that these AV-series amps don't work at all well with the Classik Music. Conversely, whilst the LK140 is roughly in the same class as the 5105 and the Klout is (arguably) somewhere in the same general league as a 5125, for some reason both the LK140 and the Klout work much better with a Classik Music than do the AV amps. Hence, as I'd be spending a good long time with my unbalanced Classik + [Good Amplifier] + Ninka intermediate setup, I should not purchase a used 5105 or 5125 (no matter how good the deal is), but I should instead seek out the Lk140 or Klout.

Along those lines, he advised that whilst it's unorthodox to pair a Klout with a Classik Music as a final setup (for the monetary outlay, there are other ways of configuring the system), it's not an unreasonable intermediate setup for someone in my position. Despite the non-Source-First mismatch of linking a onetime-top-of-the-line $4000 amplifier to a bottom-of-the-line-entry-level $1500 all-in-one, the combination does sound surprisingly good. Hence if I found a good Klout (which my father and I eventually did), I could enjoy my enhanced system both in the near-term and much more so in the future when I eventually upgrade my source & pre. This option exists only because the Classik and Klout somehow complement one other; in contrast, the 5125 / 5105 / 2250 don't complement the Classik, and by violating Source First with those amps, I'd be taking a significant step backwards (i.e., if I got one of those amps for my Classik, I'd in effect be downgrading my overall system performance until I someday improve the Source & Control).

During these conversations, I mentioned I was bidding on an eBay 5103 that might prove affordable (ultimately I lost that auction!). I was told that if I succeeded in getting the 5103, then that might open the door to many more amplifier choices. That is, the performance of my system would still be limited by my Source -- but with a 5103 replacing the Preamp section of my Classik, I could perhaps use the AV-series amps (as well as the LK/Klout) and actually enjoy the intermediate state. (I think he was still a little dubious about the 5103 + 5105 / 5125 / 2250 sounding well with the Classik as a source, but he suggested I try using the Classik as a transport, with the Toslink digital-out running to the 5103's DAC. Basically he felt it was worth a try if the 5103 came cheaply (if it didn't work, I could always sell it)....)

Other tidbits that pertain peripherally to this discussion:

* This engineer uses a Chakra / Akurate 2200 in his own system (and he loves that amp!), but he thinks extremely highly of the Klout, and he mentioned that many of his engineering friends within Linn had kept their Klouts throughout the AV-series era, as they preferred the Klout over the 5125 or 2250. This preference (from the impression I gathered) had nothing to do with measurable performance attributes, but instead derived from hard-to-express qualities and character traits that somehow made the Klout more endearing (than the AV amps -- the Chakra x200 series is apparently something else entirely!).

* Again in terms of hard-to-define character: he felt that the Klout goes particularly well with the LK-chassis components, as they share a sonic character (I didn't ask him anything specifically about the Kairn vs. 5103).

* And lastly, on a completely different note: this engineer thinks quite highly of the Classik Music. As he explained it, it's a system that they understand extremely well and which they've tweaked every year for a good many years:

At one point a 6 year-old Genki and a 1 year-old Classik both came available for a very similar (and very good) price, and I called him up to ask (1) whether it'd be worth my selling my 1999 Classik and "upgrading"; and (2) if so, whether I should get the Genki or the newer Classik. His advice was that I might not notice a significant performance jump in adding the Genki to my old Classik*, and it would probably not at all be a cost-effective upgrade. (Conversely, since I could resell my old Classik for very close to what the year-old model would cost (it was a very good price!), "updating" the Classik made much more sense, as I'd be benefiting from all ongoing the performance tweaks to the CD, preamp, and amp sections. So that's what I did, and it's worked out well!)

(* [Added Sept.12] - on reflection, I never thought to ask if the lack of "a significant performance jump" would be because the Genki and Classik CD-section are close in performance, or because the Classik's Preamp section would become the limiting factor....)

[Added Sept.12: he also (good-naturedly and laughingly) advised me to "Slow down!" after I got my Klout and the "updated" Classik. :D At that point, I was being swept up in eBay upgraditis and was continuously on the lookout for the next "higher" component -- but when I called him with tales of yet another just-barely-lost eBay auction, he laughed and said "You have a VERY nice setup now with the Classik and Klout, one much nicer than what many "audiophiles" have, and you can be happy with it for a good long time. Don't get caught up with more "big upgrades" -- just take the time to get to know and enjoy your system!" And that's turned out to be excellent advice!]

Anyway, that's a fuller account of what I was told. If anything sounds off the wall, it'll be because I've mis-explained what was said to me -- I really trust this fellow, and everything he's told me has been well-reasoned and couched with lots of caveats, personal anecdotes, pros-and-cons, and explanations. He's literally spent tens of hours on the phone with me, educating me on how these systems go together even though I've told him I'm just a used-equipment buyer with a minimal budget (and Mr. Lejonklou, he's the one who finally got some Knekt bananas for me after I completely struck out with the dealers, and his predictions on their traits relative to the silver-plated Audioquests dovetail very nicely with your own!). So if anything still sounds grossly exaggerated, it's because of my poor ability to paraphrase what he's told me! :D

Anyway, apologies for not being clear earlier, and hope you're all doing well!

-C

bbyte · Post by **bbyte** » 2007-09-11 20:16

I've got two friends that started journey with real hifi from Linn's Classik. One with Ninka, other with Epos floorstander. Both added LK140 amp to upgrade to bi-amping (and bi-wirnig). It's a very good, way while you still can get nearly new LK's amps and connect it with classik, while Chakra models doesen't fit well (also WAF is a very strong pros for staying in LK width). I've had a 5105 and it was very good when pluged with Majik CD/Kontrol, but Majik (Chakra) sounds very neutral, more sweet and very convincing in tune-dem methodology.

sommerfee · Post by **sommerfee** » 2007-09-12 08:29

lejonklou wrote: Regarding the matching of components, I feel very sceptical. But this could partly be due to the fact that it is a very widespread and accepted concept in the audiophile community - and I consider their "sound hobby" to be fundamentally different from my mine.

I don't know if I have a "sound hobby". I have asked that myself many times, but in the end it was something wrong that caused myself thinking "something is wrong". I'm not listening to "Hmm, is this system well balanced or not" or "Hmm, is the pre-amp matching well with the power-amp". I'm just listening to the music, but if something is wrong, it disturbs me, and then I'll go to try to find out what is going wrong. (And I try to be patient, I try to live with the Exotik/2250 combi for one year.) I have three systems and that is a good helper. If I find out that I'm listening more music with my Mimik+Majik+Tukan and Classik+Klout+Unik systems, either something must be wrong with my main system or I don't need the main system at all. Maybe I react on a-little-bit-unmatching-components so heavy because my other systems are so much matching in my ears?

Let's take the topic "mixed amps in an active system" for example. When I had my Kaber active with 2x Klout and 1x LK100, I was not able to say what is wrong with that system, but I was definitely more listening to music with my bedroom system, which was Classik+Tukan at that time. On many days I did go to bed very early and did listening music. But after changing the LK100 to Klout I always did go to bed very late :lol:

Of course there are some tweaks for free which I'm always interested in but usually I need a very long time before trying it out. Fredrik, do you remember how long it took me to try out your custom cables after ordering them?

And I bought a mini-tv-set on January so I can test all these Unidisk settings if they make a sound change or not, but never got started with this. Well, on someday I will...

Axel

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2007-09-12 15:27

sommerfee wrote: but usually I need a very long time before trying it out. Fredrik, do you remember how long it took me to try out your custom cables after ordering them?

Interesting.
Was it evaluating using tune dem or evaluating on the sound?
(or the combined change)

I have understod that some consider a small tunedem improvment not interesting if the sound getting worse...

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2007-09-12 15:37

sommerfee wrote: But after changing the LK100 to Klout I always did go to bed very late :lol:

:mrgreen:
I wonder...would it be better running passive bi-amped Klout compared with active 2*Klout/LK100?

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2007-10-02 00:24

Last year i spent a month reading reviews about the 5103 and decided to get one from a dealer ;so cheap compared to what i paid for my old transformer Kairn.Got it home listened to it and thought wow very clear listen to that bass man!! etc etc,aktiv Klouts had a real grip of the Ninkas except it sounded too antiseptic for me.My girlfriend had plugged in her Classic a few weeks previously and i had been listening to the tuner which is very good.With the 5103 spoken word was great you sat up and listened to what the presenter was saying then the music started and it was bit of a let down not as engaging as the spoken word(great for movies i guess) with the Kairn it was the other way round .I still wasn't sure. my girlfriend arrives home .......whats that she asks.. err its a new pre amp babes ...but it sounds worse is it a cheaper one ...what oh emm well ..yeh its a cheaper one i,m trying to save some money i'll send it back...and exchange it for a KREMLIN(non brilliant) thats just came in.Now that was more like it!! Listening to a Linn system 'Brilliant free' it took me back..
I must admit i had the same kind of feeling when i compared my Kairn to the brilliant version it kind of left me cold it sounded good but when i went back to my Kairn it still sounded good i didnt get that 'i cant listen to this anymore' feeling,i think i must be allergic to brilliant power supplys .I wonder what my Linto would sound like with an old style transformer.

There...I've said it,i hate the brilliant supplys(with the old LK stuff and vinyl ), if you want to kick me off the forum Lejonklou i understand.... One last request ..I mean question whats the best way to hook up the classic, directly to the Klouts or via the Kairn?

Thank you and good night

Leo

Post by **lejonklou** » 2007-10-02 20:09

Interesting opinion, Lego...

I do not agree with your statement in general, but you may very well have been right in the specific examples you have listened to. There are many factors to consider here, one is that quite a few of the early round Brilliants used in the LK products are now not performing as they should. That power supply box got rather hot and the capacitors in it will dry out with time. Also individual variations between units could play an important role.

Just to clarify: Neither I nor the moderators will censor or kick people out because their opinion differs from ours. What you are asked to do when contributing on this forum, however, is to use the Tune Method.

In my experience, if someone uses the Tune Method and still comes to "funny conclusions", there is usually a reason for this. I have met many Linn customers who have claimed strange things (like "My Karik is better than my Unidisk") and when I have checked their equipment/system they have almost always been right (often a product has been underperforming or broken).

bbyte · Post by **bbyte** » 2007-10-02 20:22

Or the cables was plugged in with wrong direction... Or just new and they didin't broke-in.

I've had once plugged IC wrong and now I always check two times before making any changes in my setup. I'm close to perfection in missleading right - left cables. But then I play my CD's and hear them wrong - just to put cables back in ther place...

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2007-10-12 00:12

lejonklou wrote: In my experience, if someone uses the Tune Method and still comes to "funny conclusions", there is usually a reason for this. I have met many Linn customers who have claimed strange things (like "My Karik is better than my Unidisk") and when I have checked their equipment/system they have almost always been right (often a product has been underperforming or broken).

I still think the tune dem method that linn push is more relevant to comparing the electronic side of things.If its a mechanical upgrade ie vinyl (source) then its a no brainer(no brain required), its such a significant improvement that the tune is just a part of many parts of improvements.I remember one time at a Linn focus group they had a cd12 kontrol klimax playing it sounded great but it wasnt until the music stopped that i realised how good it was;it seem to leave this vibe or feeling in the room for about 10 seconds, call it luminance as a bad analogy..it was weird ... So anyway can anyone tell me how to use the tune demo method to compare tuners if you cant compare the same tune?

ps. Lejonklou,you said the ds was better than the cd12 ,were you using the tune dem method to compare and if not what method were you using?

Cheers Ears

Lego

Post by **lejonklou** » 2007-10-12 00:52

Lego wrote:I still think the tune dem method that linn push is more relevant to comparing the electronic side of things.If its a mechanical upgrade ie vinyl (source) then its a no brainer(no brain required)

But then why do a lot of Naim enthusiasts prefer the pre-cirkus LP12 subchassis?

it wasnt until the music stopped that i realised how good it was;it seem to leave this vibe or feeling in the room for about 10 seconds

I think I understand what you mean. At least I have had the experience that the feelings of the previous music just stays in the room. When it becomes quiet, it's as if my brain keeps dreaming the emotions of the music that was just being played. (Does that make sense?)

can anyone tell me how to use the tune demo method to compare tuners if you cant compare the same tune?

This is a tricky one... I have been testing many tuners at the same time (for a magazine article) and then I decided to split it in 2 parts: First I did quick comparisons between tuners (during one song I usually had time to compare 2 or 3 tuners) and wrote down what my impressions were. Then I did a longer test with each of them to see which gave me the most pleasure.

you said the ds was better than the cd12 ,were you using the tune dem method to compare and if not what method were you using?

I have not compared the DS with a CD12 at the same time. But what I said is that I could hear right away that the DS is in a class of it's own. That was evident from the very first song. It was later compared to a 2.1 and an Akurate CD and the DS was a lot better on the CD tracks that were being played.

Matching components

Viso's system

Re: Viso's system