Hi Broccoli
Firstly let me say I am no expert on matters related to electricity! Which is why I enlisted my friend to advise and help.
I have read quite a bit that a separate power supply for Hi Fi ie. one that is not connected to the Fridge, freezer etc etc seems to be recommended to avoid interference/pops/crackles and the like.
I originally had this installed as a ring, and like you I always thought that the cables had to return to the fusebox to complete the circuit!! LOL. However, having read a bit more it seems that a single "spur" - which my "electrical" friend had no problem understanding - seems to be a better alternative.(Frederik, also seems to feel this is better)As I say, some install this spur in 10mm cable but for practical reasons we used 6mm.
The RCD we used is 8amp(I think) rating. The RCD is simply the device that clicks off if anything nasty is happenning - a safety device - like a little switch.
We chose 8amps as this was the lowest rating we could use in order to get all the power amps, cd, dvd, pre, satallite etc to work with. Any lower rating(think we tried 5 amp) and the RCD simply clicked off.
I still have to turn things on in a certain order to avoid it trippping out. In my own mind I can see this as good thing, as any minor spike or blip will cause everything to shut off.
I dont know if that helps. Im SURE there will be individuals on this forum who can give a much more professional explanation of what you need to do and why! And because its electricity - IF IN DOUBT ask someone who really knows! LOL.
Steve.
Which speakers.
Moderator: Staff
Thank you for your reply!
I will eventually hire an electrician to do the actual work (I think it would be illegal not to, at least here in Sweden). But it's good to have as much information as possible before you start. I bet few electricians have ever thought of what kind of installation makes hifi gear sound best. Too bad though :)
I will eventually hire an electrician to do the actual work (I think it would be illegal not to, at least here in Sweden). But it's good to have as much information as possible before you start. I bet few electricians have ever thought of what kind of installation makes hifi gear sound best. Too bad though :)
Yes, you do (they are called 'live' and 'neutral'). And in addition, a ground wire. Having a ring means that all three go in a ring around the house and return to the fusebox, you most likely don't have it that way. Not good for sound, as there is both a ground loop and a power loop. Loops should always be avoided.Broccoli wrote:I thought you always needed (at least) two ("fas" and "nolla" in Swedish, don't know the correct English words).
Correct (learned that yesterday! :D ). And yes, they do. Every additional switch in the power line has a sound worsening potential.I guess RCD is a "jordfelsbrytare" in Swedish? Definitely good for safety, but I wonder if they don't have a sound worsening potential?
RCD's increase electrical safety, but if you have a big system with lots of components, they can also trip without any real fault occuring. If you install one, pick one with a high rating (as poppop's post suggested).
Broccoli/Frederik
Yes, again agreeing about the switches - which is why all the sockets on the "spur" are "switchless".
Another consideration(when does it stop!!) is; do better plugs/fuses etc help the sound? I have tried the fairly widely available ceramic "Hi Fi " fuses, and certainly felt there was a sound improvement with 350A's. BUT I knew they were there - so did I really hear a difference OR just believed I heard a difference!!?
Frederik, I know you do a lot with mains cables etc - just wondering if you had any views?
Steve.
Yes, again agreeing about the switches - which is why all the sockets on the "spur" are "switchless".
Another consideration(when does it stop!!) is; do better plugs/fuses etc help the sound? I have tried the fairly widely available ceramic "Hi Fi " fuses, and certainly felt there was a sound improvement with 350A's. BUT I knew they were there - so did I really hear a difference OR just believed I heard a difference!!?
Frederik, I know you do a lot with mains cables etc - just wondering if you had any views?
Steve.
It's good to be sceptical, but continue to trust your ears! :) Those who constantly doubt their own experience have taken too many sceptical pills. Besides, they don't get anywhere because this hobby is all about personal experiences.poppop wrote:do better plugs/fuses etc help the sound? I have tried the fairly widely available ceramic "Hi Fi " fuses, and certainly felt there was a sound improvement
In my experience, fuses can sound slightly different. Don't know why and I have no rule that can tell the good ones from the bad without listening. Hifi labels usually indicate that they are expensive but says nothing about performance.
RCD means Residual Current Device, it does interrupt the mains if it detects a leakage current - standard is more than 30 mA in Italy. It works comparing the current flowing between live and neutral leads, if it's different there's surely a leakage to ground somewhere.poppop wrote:
The RCD we used is 8amp(I think) rating. The RCD is simply the device that clicks off if anything nasty is happenning - a safety device - like a little switch.
8 amp is quite low indeed. If you mean the nominal current supported by the RCD it should be better to be much more. The RCD should never interrupt the mains cause of extra current, it should only in case of leakage currents infact. The device which regulates the extra currents is the MCB (Miniature Circuit Breaker) and for domestic uses it is tipically rated between 10 and 32 A in Italy. For these reasons usually a domestic installation contemplates one RCDs together with a number of MCBs, one for each electrical "line" or "spur".
From my experience both RCDs and MCBs influence sound quality, usually the lower is the current rating the worse is the influence. For the hifi spur I'd use one dedicated RCD with 30 mA of leakage threshold and as high nominal current as possible, and one MCB rated at least 32A - keeping in mind the consequences of this relatively high threshold of course. The whole spur must support this current in case of a short circuit - a 3x6 mmq cable is ok but the standard shuko sockets are rated at 16A so please consult an expert electrician to fully verify the compliance with the rules in your country.
As for the cable used for the spur, both brand and thickness influence the sound. Usually thick cables sound big, open and impressive but not always more in tune so ideally a comparison between different brands and thicknesses should be made - but I know this is not an easy work. If you really want to do this, the best method I've found is to make some extensions with identical male and female plugs but different cables. If the hifi is powered via a power "strip" these extensions can be quite easily compared using them between a wall socket and the power strip.
Just to add some more complication consider that also electrical cables have a direction (you can easily find it by ear, using live, neutral and earth of each type all with same direction, and then reversing all of them), and that also electrical cables do run-in!
Well I guess it's enough for now, I'll go to slip...
Paolo
Hi again,
Ok at last everything is here connected up and working! The only glitch is that one of the XO's(I think) has a bit of a buzz, but once I establish that it really is the XO Ill get it fixed.
Both Keltiks have the new tweets fitted(mids are on order with Linn) and cosmetically they look great for 1999! - is it me or does the older veneer look less plasticky than than the new stuff? This looks a gorgeous reddy colour.
Ive had a couple of days listening. Given that the tweeters and 4200's are brand new and unused I would expect a bit of a change over the coming weeks / months.
If I start by describing my initial impressions of the sound - very different from what I had heard in the past. Ive had both 242's(active) and 350's and the immediate impact came from the "boxy" & hidden nature of vocals, jazz etc. However, as we all know once you give things time and listen for a few hours pictures begin to change!
Given that the classic 3 way mid/treble will never compete with a 3k array, the rest of the sound is impressive. Due in no small part to the Klimax XO's. They are revealing greater levels of detail than I perceived with 242's active, given the previously stated limits. BUT where they do excel is with the bass! LOL. Im still shoving them around to get the ideal postion which will probably be around 30cm out from the wall, 10+ degrees ish toe in. The slam and kick these things have is fun, which given the XO and 2 channels of amplification each I guess they should!
This is where I may get into hot water! But as I understand the term "tune dem" the ability to follow various instruments, vocals etc. they are possibly better than I have heard(Im sure because of the XO's) but they are not as "musical" as either the 242's or 350's.eg Katie Mellua is a bit "down a tunnel"? IF this terminology is wrong, I apologise, but I think you get my meaning?
But they are fun, and anyone into rock/metal - I do like some Trivium, Rammstein, and Evanessence. - would do well to have a listen!
Think I saw someone writing that keltiks are one of the worst speakers they had heard. Given a lot of "shoving" around, and some decent electronics, I dont agree!
If anyone is around the NE of scotland they are more than welcome to have a listen, and draw their own conclusions.
Ill give it a few months and report back once the "honeymoon" is over!
Steve.
Ok at last everything is here connected up and working! The only glitch is that one of the XO's(I think) has a bit of a buzz, but once I establish that it really is the XO Ill get it fixed.
Both Keltiks have the new tweets fitted(mids are on order with Linn) and cosmetically they look great for 1999! - is it me or does the older veneer look less plasticky than than the new stuff? This looks a gorgeous reddy colour.
Ive had a couple of days listening. Given that the tweeters and 4200's are brand new and unused I would expect a bit of a change over the coming weeks / months.
If I start by describing my initial impressions of the sound - very different from what I had heard in the past. Ive had both 242's(active) and 350's and the immediate impact came from the "boxy" & hidden nature of vocals, jazz etc. However, as we all know once you give things time and listen for a few hours pictures begin to change!
Given that the classic 3 way mid/treble will never compete with a 3k array, the rest of the sound is impressive. Due in no small part to the Klimax XO's. They are revealing greater levels of detail than I perceived with 242's active, given the previously stated limits. BUT where they do excel is with the bass! LOL. Im still shoving them around to get the ideal postion which will probably be around 30cm out from the wall, 10+ degrees ish toe in. The slam and kick these things have is fun, which given the XO and 2 channels of amplification each I guess they should!
This is where I may get into hot water! But as I understand the term "tune dem" the ability to follow various instruments, vocals etc. they are possibly better than I have heard(Im sure because of the XO's) but they are not as "musical" as either the 242's or 350's.eg Katie Mellua is a bit "down a tunnel"? IF this terminology is wrong, I apologise, but I think you get my meaning?
But they are fun, and anyone into rock/metal - I do like some Trivium, Rammstein, and Evanessence. - would do well to have a listen!
Think I saw someone writing that keltiks are one of the worst speakers they had heard. Given a lot of "shoving" around, and some decent electronics, I dont agree!
If anyone is around the NE of scotland they are more than welcome to have a listen, and draw their own conclusions.
Ill give it a few months and report back once the "honeymoon" is over!
Steve.
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M.L. and others,
After getting the XO and then the kinos back, and now almost working 100%, Ive had a complete weekend just listening to the system.
I have to say that those who sing the praises of Keltiks are right, Im finding them to be exceptionally good. I really wanted to try the keltiks because they seem to elicit quite diverse opinions - best to listen for yourself!
My intention(having bought 2 4200's) was to have a listen and then move on to perhaps passive 320's or something. BUT genuinely if I was spending more money i would simply invest in better amps. I think the keltiks would just get better!! LOL.
Steve.
After getting the XO and then the kinos back, and now almost working 100%, Ive had a complete weekend just listening to the system.
I have to say that those who sing the praises of Keltiks are right, Im finding them to be exceptionally good. I really wanted to try the keltiks because they seem to elicit quite diverse opinions - best to listen for yourself!
My intention(having bought 2 4200's) was to have a listen and then move on to perhaps passive 320's or something. BUT genuinely if I was spending more money i would simply invest in better amps. I think the keltiks would just get better!! LOL.
Steve.
Pediatrik,
I dont think I have the "professional" experience of some of the members of this forum, but I did get the opportunity to undertake the Linn training course for 4 days in Feb. past.
Great experience, not least having a play with all the gear!! Part of the training featured sessions on "tunedem" etc. While Im sure someone with more experience would arrive at the "best" position more quickly, once you have some basic principles, its about listening! LOL.
Ive set up the majik system(for a dealer where I was originally a cusomer, hence the training) for a few people and I still like the comparison with an optician when he changes lenses - "better or worse".
The powerful benefit of experience is knowing how good it should sound?
Frederik - I agree, and Im convinced the biggest contributer is the Klimax XO's. Soo much so, Im wondering if I should try something like an Ekwal with a klimax XO rather than messing around with the "Brik" as I had originally intended!?
Money money, choices choices LOL.
Steve.
I dont think I have the "professional" experience of some of the members of this forum, but I did get the opportunity to undertake the Linn training course for 4 days in Feb. past.
Great experience, not least having a play with all the gear!! Part of the training featured sessions on "tunedem" etc. While Im sure someone with more experience would arrive at the "best" position more quickly, once you have some basic principles, its about listening! LOL.
Ive set up the majik system(for a dealer where I was originally a cusomer, hence the training) for a few people and I still like the comparison with an optician when he changes lenses - "better or worse".
The powerful benefit of experience is knowing how good it should sound?
Frederik - I agree, and Im convinced the biggest contributer is the Klimax XO's. Soo much so, Im wondering if I should try something like an Ekwal with a klimax XO rather than messing around with the "Brik" as I had originally intended!?
Money money, choices choices LOL.
Steve.