Broccoli wrote:Why hasn't Linn used such technique before
I'm certain they have been experimenting with it for a long time. But often one gets better results using an old technology that has been perfected for many years than one does with a new technology that one still don't fully master.
Ceilidh - your idea works, this is the way lots of music players work. But it can be less than simple to "decouple" the transport from the DAC if they share the same box and flash memory.
If you physically unplug the loaded memory from the transport, you get the common portable MP3 player. I had plans on a memory stick source component/preamp, but the main problem with getting performance out of that is the USB interface.
lejonklou wrote:
Ceilidh - your idea works, this is the way lots of music players work. But it can be less than simple to "decouple" the transport from the DAC if they share the same box and flash memory.
Mr. Lejonklou, Bbyte,
Thank you for the responses!
If many music players use flash memory to decouple the transport from the DAC, then I guess we're back to what was said earlier in this thread: the Klimax DS must be using some kind of "magic" (perhaps the world's best DAC, as suggested by ThomasOK? perhaps "simply" some very careful detail engineering?)!
I'd be curious to hear what you folks think of it compared to an LP12; please do give us your impressions as they arise (thank you!). :D
ThomasOK wrote: Here we have what is probably the best DAC in existence and no way to connect a UniDisk, Ikemi, iPod, etc. to improve their performance. These seem to me rather large oversights especially in a product that is rumored to sell for almost $19000 US
If you had a DS why would you want to play your ipod ,Unidisk or ikemi?
ThomasOK wrote: Here we have what is probably the best DAC in existence and no way to connect a UniDisk, Ikemi, iPod, etc. to improve their performance. These seem to me rather large oversights especially in a product that is rumored to sell for almost $19000 US
If you had a DS why would you want to play your ipod ,Unidisk or ikemi?
Maybe because your SO, yourself or even your boss finds the interface to the DS too complicated and would rather have the simplicity of dropping in a disc and hitting play?
Or maybe you want to play a disc a friend lent you without making an illegal copy :oops: to your hard drive?
Maybe you already know this, but it was news for me. I saw some technical info on Topica. It was about the DAC's in the Klimax DS. I wonder if I will ever be able to compare the difference in performance that application/implementation and ultimately audio/music knowledge results in for these two units. My guess is that it is a big difference! :D (And also in price/features etc. I know that performance is not what Pioneer is after.)
Imagine the surprise for a Linnie electronics guy walking around all day, thinking it is yet another boring convention with annoying salesmen attacking you? This is a booth I would have stopped at for a long time! (With a beer in my hand...)
Quote from article:
"Wolfson recently announced their very interesting WM8741 DAC, which
offers designers the choice of a variety of advanced digital filtering
options. The WM8741 was chosen by high-end audio equipment maker Linn
for use in their Klimax DS digital music player"
Anyone here get a chance to hear the DS in a good demo?
Over at Topica someone has already taken the plunge, having said it meets or even exceeds a Keel'd LP12. This is of particular interest to me, having just plonked down money on a new LP12, Trampolin 2 and used Ekos, only to find that the availability on vinyl in my city has gone from good to almost non-existent.
If I can get near-LP12 performance from a DS then I will seriously be considering trading my new LP12 on a DS...
Over on Topica, a fellow named Joerg was kind enough to post a German "Stereoplay" article (in English translation) that talks about running a computer hard drive output into a Unidisk SC's DAC. Whilst this article doesn't directly address the Klimax DS, I thought it might be of interest in that the results (the hard drive-to-DAC approach doesn't sound as good as an SACD played directly on the UniSC) suggest (as has been discussed already here) that the excellently-performing DS must be doing something "magic" to the hard-drive input stream.
Here's the article, sort of as it appeared in Topica, with some edits to make it a little closer to standard American English (it still sounds "German" in places, but the meaning should be clearer now....).
Cheers! - C
Article from German magazine “STEREOPLAY” on using the Unidisk SC together with a computer hard drive (November(?) 2007).
THE BIT-ER TRUTH
High resolution-Downloads promise musical enjoyment like listening directly to the master tapes. Are they able to replace DVD-Audio and SACD?
"Do we still need CD and SACD?" With this deliberately provoking remark Caroline Dooley, Head of Linn Records, presents a new, highly interesting format for High Enders: the Studio Master Download. Music you could not buy in such quality as a download before - taken from the original stereo masters with up to 24bit and 96 kHz resolution - thus in best studio quality. "Of course we do not think to stop providing CDs and SACDs", Dooley gives the all-clear, "but in times of fast DSL-downloads you have to think with blinkers off and later on confront yourself with reality again and provide our customers with the format best suited to their needs." That means: mp3 is done and out as a downloadable format for enthusiasts of good sound-quality - long live high resolution, uncompressed WMA and FLAC. Besides CD and SACD, Linn-Records now offers a third possibility to enjoy music in perfection. How perfect? STEREOPLAY wanted to investigate that in detail and developed a real "master plan" to give consideration to the provoking assumption on top: could it be possible that high resolution downloads are the replacement of the SACD? Interestingly enough, for the test another high resolution format comes into play, one that Linn does not have in its portfolio: DVD-Audio
THE MASTER PLAN
If you set out to test the quality of music-downloads, you must be highly aware not to be caught by the many "sound traps" a computer puts in your way to perfect enjoyment of sound. Not only does the soundcard need to be of highest quality, also the components and the operating system of a computer are in the way of good sound-reproduction.
• The power supply: not developed to provide good sound-quality; partly a real "jamming transmitter".
• Or widely spread "Windows": the internal ("K-") mixer is in the way, re-samples signals to 48 kHz much of the time, before they find their way to the soundcard - also not really High End-y.
• Through the line-connections, many computer generated residuals find their way to the amplifier.
All that, you have to cut out of the way.
STEREOPLAY will test Linn's Studio Master Downloads using two ways: first, with a computer acting as a music-server, second, with DVD-Audio.
If you use software like Minnetonka's Discwelder or low-priced DVD-Audio Solo and burn DVD-Audio in LPCM-format from the high resolution downloads, you avoid all software- and hardware-related issues from a computer that could influence sound-quality - theoretically, the music is stored on the DVD exactly as the sound engineer provided it for download. Could it be that the custom-made DVD-Audio beats the SACD?
The "high end" conversion of a normal computer into a music-server is a bit more complicated. STEREOPLAY chose an external soundcard from Studio-Expert RME. Its FireFace 400 is attached via FireWire to the computer and bypasses Windows' "resampling-traps" with special ASIO-drivers. The high resolution downloads are directly fed into the soundcard through the "Foobar2000"-player without changes in bit-perfect quality. STEREOPLAY deliberately avoided the use of Windows Media Player, since it cannot make use of ASIO drivers. Furthermore, FireFace 400provides a highly-specialized jitter-correction that is able to virtually eliminate almost all computer-generated Jitter.
To provide direct comparability between CD, SACD and the downloads, STEREOPLAY did not make use of the excellent D/A-converters of the FireFace 400, but instead only used its internal SPDIF converter. With this high-bit-PCM-signal the reviewers fed a multiplayer from Linn: the Unidisk SC. It is able to play back CD, SACD and the custom-made DVD-Audio and also provides a digital input that accepts the high resolution digital signal (exception: 88.2 kHz signals are not accepted over the digital input, which Linn confirmed upon request). So all formats were making use of the same converters and electronics - comparability was perfectly established.
Last all-dominant step in STEREOPLAY's "master plan": a comparison between SACD and custom-made DVD-Audio with the best multiplayer STEREOPLAY knows: Linn's new Akurate CD.
THE TEST
Already with Barb Jungr's album "Walking in the sun" - mastered with 44.1 kHz and 24 bit – the reviewers noted for the custom-made DVD-A: "slightly darker and subdued, a little lack of tension." Played back from the hard disc, the test-tracks sounded clearer and more open, the electric organ's cue was clearer, fresher and more striking. Its crescendo in "Trouble in mind" sounded more threatening. The comparison to the SACD showed: from the hard disc, Barb Jungr's voice sounded a bit duller, the bass a bit more sluggish. The SACD scored with a more coherent imaging; bass was even more distinct and outlined. Barb Jungr's voice was embedded even better within the arrangement without losing autonomy.
Interesting phenomenon: the DVD-A sounded more rhythmical at first. That turned out to be a fallacy quite soon: indeed the DVD-A separated the individual notes better, but only because they were literally punched out - they lacked the fade, the transition into the next tone, that hard disc and SACD were able to provide.
Same result with Carol Kidd's album "Debut": mastered with 96 kHz and 24 bit, it could impressively prove differences between formats. The custom-made DVD-A provided more spaciousness in the first place, but very soon, STEREOPLAY discovered that this was a merely artificial 3D-effect, eventually caused by small phase-shifts - the SACD showed the more realistic, musically comprehensible three-dimensionality. Via hard disc, Carol Kidd's debut sounded more rhythmic than via DVD-A, the pianist's witty rendition, his clever use of rhythmical and dynamic phrasing provided good spirits to the listeners. Even more colour, more "swing" and sharper outlines were the icing on the cake, that made SACD again become favourite of the reviewers: "Musicality" was written on the reviewer's notepads repeatedly, when the SACD was spinning in the UNIDISK SC. That also happened during the toughest test of the STEREOPLAY-"master plan":
Played back via Akurate CD, the DVD-A stepped up a gear in quality, but the SACD expanded its advance in sound-quality even more.
Finally: what happens with classical music? One example of the 22 tracks that STEREOPLAY auditioned over hours particularly documents that: Mozart's "Adagio in c-minor" (96 kHz / 24 bit). Via DVD-A it seemed as if the recording had taken place in a well-built theatre. Via hard disc, the place turned into an opera-house. But the awe-inspiring, (tone) colorful concert hall only was audible via SACD. Especially during pianissimo, the musical suspense, that only the SACD was able to provide, was merely written into the reviewer's faces.
BOTTOMLINE
High resolution downloads - be it FLAC, WMA or WAV - surely have a big stake in the future. With a well-equipped computer and an amplifier able to process high resolution signals, it has never been easier to play back music in best quality. Shortly, even computers and soundcards will be redundant if you look at the hardware already supporting lossless codecs like FLAC - not to mention the upcoming all-in-one devices.
Converting the downloads to DVD-Audio already provides absolutely top notch sound-quality, but in comparison between formats has ended up to be the taillight. That, by the way, was not due to the quality of the software used: both Discwelder and DVD-Audio Solo do not add or take away anything from the original; we re-extracted the DVD-A-data before burning them to DVD, and they proved to be 100% identical with the original ("checksum"). But why then the differences? A crosscheck with different DVD-writers showed minimal differences in sound-quality - STEREOPLAY is sure that the differences noted by the reviewers originate between hard disc and player. In other words: somewhere, the DVD-writer, the used media, its reflectivity, burn-quality, laser pickup and mechanics of the player come into play. Nevertheless, for the Hi Fi-enthusiast without ambitions to build a music-server, DVD-A is an all-around recommendable entry into the high bit world. Clear winner of the test was the SACD - it sounded more musical, flowing, coherent and richer in detail - even though differences to the downloads were remarkably minimal in absolute terms.
For STEREOPLAY, that again proves that SACD and the bit stream-format earn highest merits in sound quality. The surplus advantage of the SACD to provide a 5.1-mix most of the times and (in case of Linn) sell at a lower price than the download, will most likely not last long - related offers are already available on the internet or in preparation. But no matter what format you chose: with this evolution, mp3 is outdated in the world of Hi Fi and will only remain a storage-space-saving option for the bus, a beach-chair or to go for a run.
SOFTWARE
For playback, STEREOPLAY recommends two programs: the freeware "Foobar 2000" and J.River Mediacenter ($40). The latter scores with an excellent user-interface and is perfectly suitable for the use with touch-panels. Both programs support ASIO. To create DVD-Audio you can either use Minnetonka's "Discwelder Bronze" ($99) or Cirlinca's "DVD-Audio Solo" ($40). There are no sonic differences; "DVD Audio Solo" gets a recommendation from STEREOPLAY for its easy usability and many features. WMA and FLAC can be imported directly without previous conversion; the integrated sound recorder for example enables conversion of a vinyl-collection to high resolution DVD-Audio.
bbyte wrote:The best of both worlds.
To have LP12 and DS. ;)
Yes...a substantial investment :)
I recently returned a DS after an extended loan and am simply not game to listen to my Uni1.1 anymore. I never did a direct A/B - there was no point. The DS was clearly better.
I had just upgraded my LP12 (new mechanics + Ittok->Ekos2 + Trampolin->Trampolin2) and came very close to taking it back to the dealer and buying a DS. But sense prevailed, and after a short-term loan of a Linto, I thought the LP12 got its edge back.
I Just got my Klimax DS last night and I have to say I'm impressed. In the little time I've had it, It does sound just great. My ripped CD's found new life and a quick download of a studio master from Linn was stunning (when will they expand their range of music?). FYI - look on the Linn CD, you get a code for a free album download. I need a bit more time to listen over time, but first impressions are really good.
So more practical issues - these were also positive....
I'm using a laptop for Twonky and Cidero for control, and it was all plugged in and it just worked first time which I must say, surprised me. Cidero found Twonky and the DS as soon as it was powered up, the DS and my Kontrol started talking. The volume control on Cidero works with my Kontrol as well as the Linn remote (they synchronise, reduce the volume on the remote and the slider changes in Cidero) and I was immediately stacking up the playlist and getting music. I was not expecting it to be so easy.
I added a huge playlist and left it running overnight to burn in, and I was skeptical if it would be running in the morning, something would have crashed? No it was stable and running, and from Windows all the processes were running and it hadn't consumed memory overnight or any other problem. I think it would have run and run without any issues.
Although I do like physical media, I was picking favorite tracks at great speed and randomising the play order which gave me more listening pleasure. I know this isn't everyone's preferred method, but it works for me. The CD's are going in a box in a cupboard.
Thanks to Chris from StudioAV who came in the evening, set it up and did some very useful tweaking to make it all work better.
congratulations - the DS is wonderful isn't it? Music just swings and seems "right". I find myself listening to things that have never been played for years and have yet to play anything I didn't enjoy.
One question: Which RS232 ports do one use for connecting the DS to the Klimax/Akurate Kontrol? The user manual of the Klimax DS says "Port 2" for the DS side, but does not mention if RS232 IN or RS232 OUT should be used on the Kontrol side.
Mine is working with connection to the "RS232 IN" side of the Klimax Kontrol. This also threw me for a while - at first it was not working in either side.
In the end I switched to using Input 1 on the KK and selecting the appropriate "autoconfiguration" option in the ConfigGUI. This appeared to create the same set of parameters I had created manually, but this time the KK appeared in the config GUI and the Volume controls appeared in the main linn GUI.
There seems to be some magic in the autoconf options...
I'va had the same issue: You have to connect the Kontrol's IN port to any of the DS RS232 connectors and run the autoconfig part of the Config Utility. This will create the correct settings /communication.
Which manual do you refer to with your statement "The user manual of the Klimax DS says "Port 2" for the DS side"
With the recent topic on mains cables, I wondered, has anyone Tune Dem'd different RJ-45 cables for connection between the DS and PC? There are many variations (UTP, STP, ScTP etc), but perhaps it's not relavent to this type of connection in the way it is to other interconnects :?
When my dealer has visited me early week to finalize the LP12 service and DS setup, we opened a Laphroaig (cask strength, matured in a sherrywood cask) I have bought about 10 years ago, waiting for a special moment like this for opening. That wonderful and exceptional dram alone should make you proud to be a Scot! :D
Json wrote:
I suppose the disc could be ripped as one file, with a cue sheet, but does the DS (and the GUI SW, including Cidero) support this?
Yes, the DS is supporting this. To make this work, the ripping software should not add extra gaps between the tracks, and the GUI should use the play list feature of the DS.
Unfortunately many GUIs, especially those who are designed to play the tracks on the PC, too, are not using the play list feature, but are only playing one song at a time - therefore causing a small gap between them. (DS to PC: "I have finished." PC to DS: "Wait, here comes another track for you." etc.)
You can detect if the play list feature is used or not on the display of your DS: If you have 2 songs in the playlist and the DS is playing the first, the DS display should say "1/2" and not "1/1". Futhermore you should be able to use the ordinary Linn remote to skip between tracks. And if you close the GUI application, the play list should be continued until the end. You should be able to see the play list again if you open the GUI application again.
So I guess I will set Max to rip to one file, with cue sheet, for those discs. I will try one and see what happens.
If I find out something new I will post it to the SW thread instead, hadn't seen that one before. Should have looked for one I guess.... :oops:
Too bad about Cidero though. But hopefully there will be other control SW for mac that can be used. Running the Linn GUI in Fusion via screen sharing from my laptop is not really a big hit, even though it is feasible.
