How to move the speaker during toe-in tuning?

[Music Lover]

Over the years I tried many different ways tuning the speakers during toe-in. All have advantages and drawbacks.

And asking many "experts" I got many answers...
- keping the inner/front speaker corner fixed on same location, rotating the speaker.
- keping the center/front speaker on same location, rotating the speaker.
- keping the out/front speaker corner on same location, rotating the speaker.

And a few more.
However, most use some part of the front baffle as reference, rotating around that.

What method do you find best?

[lejonklou]

It doesn't matter how you do it, because you still have to go back and re-check the other dimensions after the toe-in is determined.

Quite often I find that if the optimal distance to the back wall is 23 cm, the toe-in becomes centered around this distance. For example 22 cm at the left side and 24 cm at the right side of the speaker.

I usually find that little to no toe-in sounds best. A couple of years back, some Linn representatives started installing with massive toe-in (speakers almost pointing towards the middle of the room). I don't know why and I never really liked the sound of it. Now it seems a moderate amount of toe-in is once again the norm.

The main thing to remember is that it always varies from room to room. There are no rules or specific measurements that works everywhere. Share methods, not numbers!

[Music Lover]

Quite often I find that if the optimal distance to the back wall is 23 cm, the toe-in becomes centered around this distance. For example 22 cm at the left side and 24 cm at the right side of the speaker.

That was interesting as the consequence is that the more you rotate the speakers the more they have to be put back, closer to the wall.

But isn’t it most logical to keep the centre of the baffle fixed and rotate the speakers?
Why should it be needed to reduce the back distance?
(going to check my old installation notes to verify if I seen this)


Agree, regardless of method you always have to recheck the back&side distance at the end.
I normally start with the speakers either very close to the wall or far out in the room, tuning the back distance. Step II; determine the side distance – moving just ONE speaker. Step III; tune the other speaker.
Step IV; toe-in tuning.
All down to 5mm.

Final step; Recheck of the back/side and toe-in position getting down to a few mm. Moving just one speaker.

Do we have any that tested to rotate around one of the spikes or the mass centre of the speaker (if you see the speaker from above)?

[lejonklou]

That was interesting as the consequence is that the more you rotate the speakers the more they have to be put back, closer to the wall.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this.

But isn’t it most logical to keep the centre of the baffle fixed and rotate the speakers?

I thought that was more or less what I suggested? But instead of the baffle I often use the back side of the speaker, just because it's convenient to measure from there. I agree that after toe-in the baffles will be closer to one another, so the speakers will probably need to be separated a bit.

When I last checked what "point" was the "centre" on a pair of Espeks, I had a slight suspicion that it could be the bass port on the front. But after doing the toe-in and rechecking the position, I came to the conclusion that it was the centre of the bass unit on the back side that wanted to be in the exact same spot, regardless of whether the speaker was toed-in or not. Perhaps it is the same for other speakers. In that case it might be easiest to rotate the speakers around that point - at least if it's convenient to measure.

Regarding your steps, I do the same. But if the side walls are very far from the speakers, it can be easier to determine (II) the optimal distance between left and right speaker and then (III) move both speakers as a pair sideways. If a side wall is close to one speaker, the position of that speaker often seems to dominate (it becomes more important than the distance between speakers or the position of the other speaker).

[Music Lover]

I thought that was more or less what I suggested?

It was a consequence from your "centered around the back wall" distance method....
If you apply that method, the centre of the baffle GOING to be closer to the wall the more you rotate the speakers. (and as you write, left and right speakers baffles closer to each other)

Quite often I find that if the optimal distance to the back wall is 23 cm, the toe-in becomes centered around this distance. For example 22 cm at the left side and 24 cm at the right side of the speaker.

Another method is to keep the centre of the baffle fixed, rotating around that.
Both these methods require a back/side wall adjustment of course but I was just interested if "as a general guideline" the baffle end up closer to the back wall after a toe-in adjustment.
Your 22, 24 and 23 cm method indicate that being a possibility.
Got it?

[Music Lover]

Just checked by readjusting from cratch; back...side..toe-in (keeping centre baffle fixed)... to finally discover that after toe-in, the speakers HAD to be put slightly closer to the wall.
Next up - check side adjustment. :mrgreen:

[Music Lover]

Me again :D
Yepp, slightly closer to the side wall as well.
(this time I going to save ALL notes during the tuning, not only the end result :P )

[lejonklou]

It was a consequence from your "centered around the back wall" distance method....
If you apply that method, the centre of the baffle GOING to be closer to the wall the more you rotate the speakers.

Ok, I understand and you are right. The centre of the baffle will move in a circle, which means that with a minimal toe-in the baffle will only move sideways. But the more toe-in you apply, the more the baffle will move closer to the back wall.

In any case, it seems you are going through it all very carefully... Which means you will eventually end up in the right spot! :D

[Music Lover]

Which means you will eventually end up in the right spot! :D

I think so too.
It was interesting to re-tune, just to validate the method.
Using different methods, you can find one that you prefer.
Still looking for the superfast method :mrgreen:

And still look for YOUR thoughts, forum friends!

[lejonklou]

One really fast method is to put on a rather repetetive song (I've got some house records that work quite well because much of the beat remains the same for a long time) and move the speakers while the song is playing.

It takes some practice and so far I have only managed to find rough positions for the speakers this way. Then you have to switch to the slow and methodical way to get precision...

[Ceilidh]

And still look for YOUR thoughts, forum friends!

Hello Music Lover!

Just wanted to apologize for not joining in on this discussion -- besides not being very good yet at Tune Dem (I'm trying!), I'm unfortunately kind of limited in where I can put my speakers (e.g., they're in a very small New England living room with various cabinet doors, doorways, drawers, etc. that'll clobber them if they're not put in one particular spot (which is almost certainly not the ideal place for them, acoustically)). I'll try to tweak them a little, but basically I can't contribute very much to this thread -- my apologies!

-C

[ThomasOK]

Just got back from vacation so haven't been able to post until now.

When I set up speakers I use the inner/back corner of the speaker cabinet as the reference point. I find it easiest to get accurate measurements going from the corners (although Artikulats or Sonus Fabers make this more difficult). Having worked in the industry for nearly 30 years I generally have a good idea of the approximate toe-in that works best so I start with that. It is fairly minimal on Linn speakers - about one-half to three-quarters of an inch difference between the two back corners. It is two and a half inches on my ATC 100s. I then adjust the distance to the back wall measuring from the inside/back corner. Then adjust the distance to the side wall on the speaker closest to a side wall if they are different. Then adjust distance apart and then fine tune toe-in. And on a numbeer of speakers like Sonus Faber and Vienna Acoustics you also have to adjust the rake angle of the speaker.

In order to really get the best position I find it necessary to go through all the steps again checking small changes to see if changing one setting has made another setting need a slight readjustment.

It would be nice if you could do toe in some way that would not change other settings but I find it difficult if not impossible. How do you move the speaker so that the movement is centered on the center of the woofer? Do you want it flush to the face of the woofer or centered on where the voice coil meets the cone? How do you get it to move on that point - especially if you are using spikes on carpet as most of my installations do? It can be easier to rotate a speaker with the spikes off but I have found that having the spikes on changes things so much that you need to redo everything anyway.

Maybe we need speaker companies to supply a spike fitting mounted at the acoustical center point of the speaker that can fold away into the base of the speaker when not in use! As always YMMV. (Sorry about the imperial measurements - my mind just doesn't work in metric yet.)

[sommerfee]

And still look for YOUR thoughts, forum friends!

I must confess that I don't know anymore if I had to correct the speaker distance after toeing-in.

I usually start with a quite good position (which is IMHO quite easy to find) and no toe-in at all, justate the wall distance afterwards, then distance between the speakers, check wall distance again, then toe-in, afterwards I check both, wall & speaker distance, again. I need two (or even three) afternoons for that, not because it takes so long, but because after some time I don't like this "game" anymore, and I need a "fresh" ear for that.

But I have to position my Tukans in the next days again (haven't done this properly after the last move), I will check & report.

Axel