Daisychain

[Mango]

Hi there!
I have a question on how to connect the amplifiers in an active system.
In older Linn products is it possible to connect every amp direct from pre out because they have multiple connectors.
However on newer Linn preamps i have noticed that they have removed the multiple pre outs leaving just one pre out. That means that you can only use one pair of interconnects from pre out and then have to connect the amplifiers together.
I believe that Linn call this method of connecting for "Daisy Chain".
My question is if it's always better to Daisychain even on older products (such as AV5103)?
Has anybody tried and evaluated the difference??
I'm currently running active Espek with 5125 and LK140 and have connected both of the amps directly from 5103.

[sommerfee]

My question is if it's always better to Daisychain even on older products (such as AV5103)?

We tried it with a AV5103 (and three 2250) and with a Kairn (and three Klouts) and both times the "parallel" solution was superior to the "daisy chain" option.

And even a system of Kairn+4xKlout+Akurate 242 (daisy chaining or a mixture of daisy chaining+parallel) was worse than Kairn+3xKlout+Akurate 242 (parallel)!

HTH,
Axel

[lejonklou]

Really? I am surprised you say this, Axel. I have tried it many times and every time the daisy chain option has been better. Parallel has been bigger sounding and also more homogenic - as if all frequencies are at the exact same level. But daisy chain has been more tuneful in my ears.

It was a while since I tried it last, so I might have to try it again to be sure. There is nothing more dangerous than old convictions!

Linn's standpoint in the 90's used to be that daisy chain was better, but I am not sure what they say today. Maybe the single output on preamps is an indication that they think the same.

[Mango]

Interesting answers from both of you.
I will try both connections and then tell you what i liked best.
(I always use the tunedem method when i compare.)

[sommerfee]

Fredrik, and I'm surprised about your words, too. Are you sure about the recommendation from Linn? And if this was the recommendation from Linn, why did they had parallel outputs in the past? Even the LK tunebox has two outputs for the bass way, so you do not need to daisy chain the power amps for the Keltik bass drivers.

Maybe this depends on the equipment used? Maybe I was too shocked by the lack of homogeneity so I "forgot" to check the tune? Can't say for sure (although I'm quite sure!), all this was years ago...

[lejonklou]

I can't say if the recommendation was official, but from "Linn-people" the advice came to try daisy chain instead of parallel. Before that, parallel used to be the standard way of connecting LK systems (I am not sure if this was an official standpoint either). I remember the daisy chain recommendation came as a surprise and it was later repeated several times.

I have found it rather interesting that connecting a subwoofer last in a chain of many interconnects (try counting how many connectors, solderings and cables it becomes in a 5-way system!) can sound better than connecting the subwoofer directly to the preamp.

One of the keys to understanding this could be that the output stages in my experience are sensitive to different cable loads. Ground loops can also be created, depending on what power amps are used and how they are grounded internally.

Please report if you try it again! I promise I will.

[Music Lover]

Both, please report how you position the power cords in the power connector box.
Just thinking what can affect the different result...

I have during the years compared this a few times in my system and "Daisy Chain" has always been the best.

fyi
I connect (in the power connector box) the source closest to power cord leading to the wall, preamp after that, treble amp etc to finally the bass amp(s) as far as possible.

[Linnofil]

I have experimented with this in the past and I think I have an explanation to why different people can come to different conclusions.

1. The first time I tried this was in my own system (-96?)on a Kairn (No SMPS) with active Keilidhs (2xLK100) I first had daisychained and then tried parallel with great result. A worthwhile improvement. Now I “knew” how It should be. ;) (The Kairn has, as most of you know, three “pre-out” pairs.)

2. The second time I was tuning a friends system who also had Kairn (SMPS), 2xLK100 and Keilidh. I was very surprised when I saw that he had daisychained his amps. Hadn’t he discovered the great improvement that parallel could give? No, he had only tried it one way. I then demonstrated to him what I thought would be a very nice and totally free upgrade.

To my surprise it was much worse! Since this was totally not what I expected we tried the three different outputs on the Kairn. They all sounded different! He had originally connected it to the second best output and I connected the other amp to the worst sounding output. Since we now knew the best output we daisychained from that and it was the best option. (Compared to Treble amp on best and Bass amp on second best output.) So at least all this experimenting had led to an improvement for him. Diasychained again, but with a better pre-out pair.

When I came home again I checked and I had obviously moved my bass amp to a better output than the one I previously daisychained from. No wonder I got an improvement from running the amps in parallel. When I knew my best output, I daisychained from that and I got an even bigger improvement. (Compared with my first configuration.)

When my friend later bought a 5103 he did the same thing with good results. I realise it is weird that the outputs sounds different, but they do! (I don’t know if it is better with parallel if (in theory) all output sounds the same.)

But I do know what I really recommend when it comes to Pre/Power interconnects. Cut one of the ground wires in the IC pair. It really works wonders in my system! (Made the disconnection inside my DIY poweramp. Saves my Linn silvers!)

[monkeydevil]

...To my surprise it was much worse! Since this was totally not what I expected we tried the three different outputs on the Kairn. They all sounded different! He had originally connected it to the second best output and I connected the other amp to the worst sounding output. Since we now knew the best output we daisychained from that and it was the best option. (Compared to Treble amp on best and Bass amp on second best output.) So at least all this experimenting had led to an improvement for him. Diasychained again, but with a better pre-out pair.

When I came home again I checked and I had obviously moved my bass amp to a better output than the one I previously daisychained from. No wonder I got an improvement from running the amps in parallel. When I knew my best output, I daisychained from that and I got an even bigger improvement. (Compared with my first configuration.)

When my friend later bought a 5103 he did the same thing with good results. I realise it is weird that the outputs sounds different, but they do! (I don’t know if it is better with parallel if (in theory) all output sounds the same.)

But I do know what I really recommend when it comes to Pre/Power interconnects. Cut one of the ground wires in the IC pair. It really works wonders in my system! (Made the disconnection inside my DIY poweramp. Saves my Linn silvers!)

Is "the best output" the same om all Kairns, or do they differ on every Kairn? Of course I could try it myself, but I don't have the time for tests for a cuple days now...

[sommerfee]

I connect (in the power connector box) the source closest to power cord leading to the wall, preamp after that, treble amp etc to finally the bass amp(s) as far as possible.

Same here.

[lejonklou]

Linnofil: I am impressed. That you managed to find what flawed the parallel connection in these cases is the Sherlock Holmes achievement of the year in my book. I have never heard of the Kairn outputs sounding different before! And I haven't tried comparing them either (although I did compare the inputs). You see, they are all driven from the same output stage, so there can't be any difference! (I am being ironic now, but this is how many technocrats think)

The funny thing is that if the 3 outputs of the Kairn do sound different, the extra connectors and cables between treble, mid, bass etc in the daisy chain option should degrade the sound too. Your results indicate that either the Kairn outputs differ more than the influence of several extra interconnects OR there is something else at work in addition to this. I believe there is something more, as several experiments have indicated the importance of both output stage loading and ground loops.

Your recommendation to remove one ground connection is just that: The removal of a ground loop. This is a main reason why Naim prefers DIN to RCA (phono) connectors. DIN uses only one screen/ground. The problem of following your recommendation on a commercial level is that if the customer for some reason chooses to connect only one channel on the poweramp (which has only one of the inputs grounded) and happen to choose the wrong one, the amp will go berserk and possibly blow up the speakers.

So while the single ground system is great, it must also be made fool-proof, as when using DIN connectors. There are other solutions as well, some of which I might implement in future products.

[lejonklou]

I connect (in the power connector box) the source closest to power cord leading to the wall, preamp after that, treble amp etc to finally the bass amp(s) as far as possible.

Same here too. I don't think this affects the outcome of daisy chain versus parallel.

Monkeydevil: What does your cool avatar come from? I sort of recognise the figures, but can't remember who they are or who their creator is.

[monkeydevil]

Monkeydevil: What does your cool avatar come from? I sort of recognise the figures, but can't remember who they are or who their creator is.

It's a drawing by Robert Crumb, the (in)famous underground cartoonist. He created Fritz the Cat and Mr. Natural among other things and also drew the cover for the Cheap Thrills album by Big Brother and the Holding Company. He seems to be quite an odd caracter, collecting 78's from the 1920's :D and with an expressed leaning towards the perverted :? So these two themes often appear in his drawings, the former in my avatar...

His caracter appears in the must-see-movie American Splendor, wich I recommend to everybody. This movie is the true story about underground writer Harvey Pekar, a grumpy lonesome old man working in the cellar of some archive somewhere in the 1970's. He spends his time reading comics and listening to records and then suddenly starts to write manuscripts for comics. Robert Crumb draws some of them.

[Music Lover]

I connect (in the power connector box) the source closest to power cord leading to the wall, preamp after that, treble amp etc to finally the bass amp(s) as far as possible.

Same here too. I don't think this affects the outcome of daisy chain versus parallel.
.

Just trying to be creative. :mrgreen:
Linnofil is an excellent example. With enough determination to check all possible (and some impossible) reasons, new discoveries can be the result.
Outputs with different SQ - a good catch Linnofil.
Going to check my 1.1 outputs! (is A or B best?)
Then I check the preamp input...

Anyone tested this already?

[sommerfee]

You see, they are all driven from the same output stage

Are they? I do not have any knowledge about electronics, but AFAIK the three outputs in a Kairn are not just simple parallel outputs, just like the A-B-stereo-outputs in an Unidisk or the speaker outputs in a Klout, but have their own electronic components inside instead!?

Regarding the Uni 1.1 outputs: I used A for all the years, but after rearrangement of the hifi it was easier for me to use B instead (otherwise I had to move the Unidisk a few cm, not centered in the rack anymore). I was shocked by the result and thought I have done something else wrong, when I finally found out that the B outputs made the Unidisk sound like a Sony! After one day B sounded notable better, and after two days it became better again, some kind of Exposure instead of Sony :mrgreen: But afterwards I was tied of such things, moved the Unidisk a few cm to the left and used A again (until today). :lol:

[Music Lover]

BL*** HE**
Guess what... I used B all these years :oops:
For no reason really.
If A is much better :shock: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Have to try this tonight :!:

Pity I have meetings booked all day :?

and used A again (until today). :lol:

Until today?
So you test this now?
And the result...

[lejonklou]

AFAIK the three outputs in a Kairn are not just simple parallel outputs

Yes they are, except for one resistor that is in series with each output connector. Like this: One output stage drives three 100 ohm resistors and each resistor is in its other end connected to the output RCA.

Monkeydevil: Thanks for the info! Didn't know much about him, but I have seen the stuff you mention. Except for the movie, will see it.

Music Lover: By all means, keep up the creativity! :) I think that Axel meant that he switched back to A and still uses A.

[sommerfee]

If A is much better :shock: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I don't think A is better in general, but since B was never used before it needed some kind of "burn in"? At least this would explain why B was getting better from day to day (but I simply lost patience after 2 days).

If this is correct your output A should sound worse than B.

@Fredrik: Thanks about the info about the Kairn.

[monkeydevil]

...To my surprise it was much worse! Since this was totally not what I expected we tried the three different outputs on the Kairn. They all sounded different! He had originally connected it to the second best output and I connected the other amp to the worst sounding output. Since we now knew the best output we daisychained from that and it was the best option. (Compared to Treble amp on best and Bass amp on second best output.) So at least all this experimenting had led to an improvement for him. Diasychained again, but with a better pre-out pair.

When I came home again I checked and I had obviously moved my bass amp to a better output than the one I previously daisychained from. No wonder I got an improvement from running the amps in parallel. When I knew my best output, I daisychained from that and I got an even bigger improvement. (Compared with my first configuration.)

When my friend later bought a 5103 he did the same thing with good results. I realise it is weird that the outputs sounds different, but they do! (I don’t know if it is better with parallel if (in theory) all output sounds the same.)

But I do know what I really recommend when it comes to...

Is "the best output" the same om all Kairns, or do they differ on every Kairn? Of course I could try it myself, but I don't have the time for tests for a cuple days now...

ok, I did a little test tonight. The output on the far left was the one I allready used when I begun the test. I found the one on the far right to be the least musical. That was obvious on all three songs I played. The middle pair and left pair were both more musical in comparison. My first impression was that the middle one was slightly better. On the next song I thought the left one the most musical (although the difference was slight) and the middle one a little more ‘hifi sounding'. These two were rather similar in musicality yet more different in "sound". I think I'm gonna compare them again someday soon!

[Music Lover]

If A is much better :shock: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I don't think A is better in general, but since B was never used before it needed some kind of "burn in"? At least this would explain why B was getting better from day to day (but I simply lost patience after 2 days).

If this is correct your output A should sound worse than B.

Sweeeet! :D
B is better on Tune Dem, but A offer more PRaT.

Going to burn in A for a week/two and test again.
If A can improve the tune just a bit, it's going to be a killer combination!
:mrgreen:

Guys, is this FUN or what?

[sommerfee]

Guys, is this FUN or what?

No. When I find out something like this, I usually switch the whole (main) stereo off, go to the bedroom, take a good book and while reading listen to my bedroom hifi system, Classik+Unik. This is a hifi system which just *works* and does not behave like a silly cat. :mrgreen:

[monkeydevil]

ok, I did a little test tonight. The output on the far left was the one I allready used when I begun the test. I found the one on the far right to be the least musical. That was obvious on all three songs I played. The middle pair and left pair were both more musical in comparison. My first impression was that the middle one was slightly better. On the next song I thought the left one the most musical (although the difference was slight) and the middle one a little more ‘hifi sounding'. These two were rather similar in musicality yet more different in "sound". I think I'm gonna compare them again someday soon!

I was thinking if burn in issues could be at stake here, as have been mentioned regarding the two pairs of outputs from the uni 1.1's? I am thinking this because I have been using the pair of outputs on the far right for quite some time now, and I did use the middle pair for some time a couple of years ago. These two outputs were the ones that were best sounding and most difficult to tell wich one was the best. The switch a couple of years ago from the middle output to the left one was purely coinicidal. But my point is the right output has never been used (I think...) by me. Maybe by the previous owner of the Kairn, but that is something we will never know. So could burn in affect the result?

I will try again next week when I get my Uni 1.1 back froom service, last night I played eith my LP12.

[sommerfee]

"Burn in" could also explain my horrible results with daisy chaining: On both systems the cinch outputs of the power amplifiers had never been used before...

[Mango]

I have tested this now and found that i can't really hear any difference between the outputs on my 5103, maybe because i have been using all 3 to my amplifiers (the burn in theory).
When switching between parallel and daisy chain i found that daisy chain is superior in my system and it is a pretty big difference!
When using parallel method is sounds bigger and wider in every way but when using daisy chain it's just better in tunedem.
I have now connected like this:
5103 -- 5125 Treble -- 5125 Mid -- LK140 Bass

All the powerchords connected in correct order in phase with the Ikemi first and so on.

[Lego]

Hi guys I daisychained my aktiv klouts last night for the first time in 5 years(having read in the manual that parallel is the better option!!???) anyway klouts sound a lot more enjoyable to listen to now; probably sounds more like an integrated amp with a mm cartridge;if you know what i mean . i dont know if i used the tune demo method or as i find that linn telling me how to listen to a tune a bit patronising so i have never to read the blurb.They'll be telling us how to dance next.