Digital crossovers

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Per A
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Digital crossovers

Post by Per A » 2012-07-09 09:13

Split from "Lejonklou Tundra" /Az
Music Lover wrote: The new Kiko has a digital filter, cant wait checking that out.
ML, what is this?

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Re: T vs Aktiv Linn

Post by rowlandhills » 2012-07-09 13:24

Per A wrote:
Music Lover wrote: The new Kiko has a digital filter, cant wait checking that out.
ML, what is this?
See here:

http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1311

Somewhere (I can't find the reference right now, I'm afraid) there was mention that the aktiv filters are implemented digitally within the main unit, which has lots of interesting potential for the future.
KRDSM, Tundra to 242s
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Post by Per A » 2012-07-09 22:17

Thanks, it was on page 8 of the Linn thread.

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread. ... 417&page=8

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Post by ThomasOK » 2012-07-10 01:18

That is a quite interesting development. A digital crossover gives the ability to do quite a lot more in tailoring the response of the speakers. Of course the big question is whether it has the quality to be in a higher level system. After all, Linn uses a Class D amp on the Sekrit DS-I (and possibly in the Kiko as well?) but not in any of their higher up models. One would expect that the sound quality of Class D isn't up where they want it yet. The digital crossover could be a similar case. But this should mean it could be reconfigured for other two way speakers or to accept improved drivers if they changed them. Certainly an interesting direction for Linn.
Last edited by ThomasOK on 2013-09-22 22:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by rowlandhills » 2012-07-10 08:47

Indeed. Imagine if all of their power amps started to come with built in filters, and the dealer could just apply a setting to change them to replicate any aktiv card made so far. That's a very interesting idea...

And of course, then there would be the potential for more active (sorry for the pun) tuning of the aktiv "card" to suit individual rooms. We might get back the 0.1dB level increments etc. if people want them, or the ability to take out a particular resonant frequency for one room.
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Post by mrco99 » 2012-07-10 09:45

Linn never develops something as a `one-off` thing.
Either they come with top-of-the-bill things at Klimax level that
gradually trickle down to Majik/Akurate range, or they start with
something low level that gets perfected for components up the chain.

I think the Sekrit DSi was their first class D amp?
Not many have heard it (me neither I must admit), but enhanced, more powerful versions will certainly appear in future iterations.

So indeed, this will very likely point towards their future direction.
Imagine no more installing loose chakra cards, but digital crossovers
into the board that can be enabled with software switching.
Just pay through the webshop and you can download the required codex.
Plus indeed better tailoring to room acoustics with smaller incremental steps to adjust the filters.

If they can bring it up to a good enough level, it will also make Klimax crossovers obsolete. The argument that the current crossovers need their own casing and PS for maximum performance is getting less and less valid as we advance forward.

5 Years ago, no one would have predicted an integrated Klimax product as KDSM, it would have been laughed at. But nowadays Linn has obviously made enough progress in this field to succesfully launch such a product at Klimax level. Still, KDS/1 and KK/1 have the better performance, but the gap will be narrowing, and convenience of integrated devices becomes more and more important.

I think at Linn, they´ll surely have a thorough look at what the Devialet is doing (class A+D amp, fully integrated pre/power streamer) and how they can better it.

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Post by Per A » 2012-07-10 10:07

Did anyone hear the Devialet? They have some nice pages.

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Post by mrco99 » 2012-07-10 10:25

Not yet, but those that have say it's very, very good.
It's priced around Euro 12.000,- so you may also expect something.
Would be interesting to compare it against ADSM+2200 that, as a two/box setup prices at Euro 10.500, competes in the same price range.

Biggest drawback (for Linnies) may be that it's only capable of Wifi streaming, no Ethernet protocol.

Edit - Sorry, but we're wandering too much off topic from Tundra now.
Maybe take this to another thread?

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Post by Music Lover » 2012-07-10 11:20

rowlandhills wrote:Indeed. Imagine if all of their power amps started to come with built in filters, and the dealer could just apply a setting to change them to replicate any aktiv card made so far. That's a very interesting idea...
Bad idea if you ask me.
Why having A/D, filter and D/A circuits in amps destroying the performance making them also more expensive, even if you run a passive system?

There are better ways doing it.
1/ adding the filter and pre in DS as they added things in DSM products. You tweak the signal BEFORE entering the D/A.
2/ filter in a separate box.

Alt 1/ is the way forward avoiding taking the signal between the analogue and digital domain many times. Also less expensive

Just face it, Linn must also adopt to the market where ultimate performance is sacrificed on the behalf of design, compact system, few boxes, less cables and easy to setup/use.

This is also a reason I think Linn sooner or later going to release speakers with everything inbuilt. The system is then controlled via WLAN. --> just one power cable needed per speaker.

I also hope Linn release 2/ so old loyal customers have a possibly to take advantage of the latest technology, even if they have obsolete speakers as Bricks, Keltiks and Komri.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Post by Music Lover » 2012-07-10 11:56

mrco99 wrote: If they can bring it up to a good enough level, it will also make Klimax crossovers obsolete. The argument that the current crossovers need their own casing and PS for maximum performance is getting less and less valid as we advance forward.
It's actually the opposite. Experience tells me the that putting everything together (a la KDS and 350A) kills performance. Not only due to the short distance, vibrations and electromagnetic fields but also due to LESS care about attention to details. (cable direction, quality of cables and sockets etc.

And the MORE technology advance forward (=better performance in a system, this being more and more important.

Tweak a Klimax system and do the same with a Majik system and you going to observe that small tweaks having a bigger impact on the Klimax system.
And the better you tweak the systems (both) the bigger impact other tweaks have.

mrco99 wrote: 5 Years ago, no one would have predicted an integrated Klimax product as KDSM, it would have been laughed at. But nowadays Linn has obviously made enough progress in this field to succesfully launch such a product at Klimax level. Still, KDS/1 and KK/1 have the better performance, but the gap will be narrowing, and convenience of integrated devices becomes more and more important.
Sadly I also think the gap will be smaller, but this simply due to Linn focusing on enhancing the DSM product performance.
Linn don't have the manpower to focus on keeping both the DS and DSM product lines up to date.
Sooner or later a DS going to have same circuit boards as DSM with disabled features.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Post by fredrik » 2012-07-22 19:15

Music Lover wrote:
rowlandhills wrote:Indeed. Imagine if all of their power amps started to come with built in filters, and the dealer could just apply a setting to change them to replicate any aktiv card made so far. That's a very interesting idea...
Bad idea if you ask me.
Why having A/D, filter and D/A circuits in amps destroying the performance making them also more expensive, even if you run a passive system?

There are better ways doing it.
1/ adding the filter and pre in DS as they added things in DSM products. You tweak the signal BEFORE entering the D/A.
2/ filter in a separate box.
I agree, "dont stop" thinking about tomorrow sounds wondeful in 24/96 on KDSM "yesterdays gone" wow fleetwood mac!

I would like to suggest the third way, the middle ground! Perform the DA conversion in the Power Amp or tune box!

Digital distribution should be easy to the active filter modules and filtered by the DSM processor compute requirement minimal.

I believe this would be cheaper than the current config that requires DA in the DSM and analougue filtering on the filter module. I am betting that digital signal distribution would be consirably cheaper compared to analogue.

RJ45 with data and clock sync should work.
I belive WLAN to speaker to waste a lot of bandwidth and how can clock syncronization be guaranteed without an atomic clock in each speaker??
(now in english, sorry)
Last edited by fredrik on 2012-07-23 14:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by CJ1045 » 2012-08-14 09:34

I would have thought they would do the digita l filtering in the DS unit. After all that is where the data is already digital and they already have the FPGA to program how they wish. Add an A/D for the input from a Sondek and extra D/A outputs for the feeds to the power amps.

CJ

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Post by Rufus McDufus » 2012-08-14 09:44

Wouldn't it be lovely if they could program the FPGA (or whatever) to provide digital crossovers for existing DS owners? Life never seems to work quite like that though!

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Exakt

Post by fredrik » 2013-09-22 19:32

fredrik wrote:
Music Lover wrote:
rowlandhills wrote:Indeed. Imagine if all of their power amps started to come with built in filters, and the dealer could just apply a setting to change them to replicate any aktiv card made so far. That's a very interesting idea...
Bad idea if you ask me.
Why having A/D, filter and D/A circuits in amps destroying the performance making them also more expensive, even if you run a passive system?

There are better ways doing it.
1/ adding the filter and pre in DS as they added things in DSM products. You tweak the signal BEFORE entering the D/A.
2/ filter in a separate box.
I agree, "dont stop" thinking about tomorrow sounds wondeful in 24/96 on KDSM "yesterdays gone" wow fleetwood mac!

I would like to suggest the third way, the middle ground! Perform the DA conversion in the Power Amp or tune box!

Digital distribution should be easy to the active filter modules and filtered by the DSM processor compute requirement minimal.

I believe this would be cheaper than the current config that requires DA in the DSM and analougue filtering on the filter module. I am betting that digital signal distribution would be consirably cheaper compared to analogue.

RJ45 with data and clock sync should work.
I belive WLAN to speaker to waste a lot of bandwidth and how can clock syncronization be guaranteed without an atomic clock in each speaker??
(now in english, sorry)
It seems I was correct in everything except price.

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Re: Exakt

Post by lejonklou » 2013-09-22 20:40

fredrik wrote:It seems I was correct in everything except price.
Indeed you were!

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Post by coquillat » 2014-06-21 13:02

Per A wrote:Did anyone hear the Devialet? They have some nice pages.
Yes, I did! It is amazing how brilliant it sounds: great performance in tempo, room and neutral spectrum ...
Nikolaus ;-)

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