Power cords

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Post by lejonklou »

My findings differ from yours, roots man. I do agree that to a certain extent, power cords can work slightly differently in different systems. I still find it surprising that not all systems react in the same way when replacing power cords.

This system dependancy is however very small - I still have a bunch of the Ching Chengs that you mention and don't find them very good in comparison with the newer and better cords. Not in any system. So in my opinion it's at least 90% "the quality of the cord" that matters and less than 10% "works well in this system".

In a similar way, I also think most good HiFi components can be mixed and the result will be musically good. The matching of components is again a low percentage of the final result. Lots of people in this business focus on optimal matching, but I think this often comes as a result of 1) focusing on the sound rather than the music, 2) using an inferior source and/or 3) not having a properly installed system.

When the reproduction is not convincing to begin with, the quest for perfect matching easily results in hiding one problem behind another.

Just my 2 cents.
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Post by Efraim roots »

Lejonklou, that give me hope that you feel confident on this. Life gets easier that way :) I will try some more if I find good power cords and see if this Linn Naim conflict is for real or just a case of my hasty experimentation.

But I still feel that there is something very fundamental different in what makes Linn and Naim good. And as the tests with Kikkin+NAP shows, they not always benefit from eachother.. But ofcourse this could also be something else, like Anders from Tonläget said, there might be something going on with the earthing..
the players of instruments shall be there..
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Post by Efraim roots »

Now I did organised proper tune dems with the power cords I have and results are very logical and you are right Lejonklou (as usual).

The cables I got is:
'Tongyuan' (supplied by Linn)
'Ching Cheng' (supplied by Linn)
'I Sheng' (supplied by Naim)

I tried 'Ching Cheng' vs 'I Sheng' on my Naim nap200/nac202. I sheng was the winner even if the ching cheng was tuneful in its presentation it was kind of lifeless and I sheng was more right even if it sounded little cold and hardhitting rytmwize.

Then tried 'I Sheng' vs 'Tongyuan' were tongyuan was better, it was more emotive and tuneful, simply better. I sheng sounds as I said little cold (less emotive) and hardhitting rythmwize.

Then I went to the Lingo and tried 'Ching Cheng' vs 'I sheng' and the winner is I sheng. The Ching cheng is tuneful but somewhat dull/slow and not very good bass timeing. The I sheng is more clear, lively and 'right'.

And as I tested before I know that 'Tongyuan' is superior to the I sheng on the Lingo. Everything very logical at last, I must beware of those hasty experiments and do things proper.

Power cords ranking:
1# TONGYUAN
2# I SHENG
3# CHING CHENG (quite boring)
the players of instruments shall be there..
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Post by donuk »

Hi guys,
My system is Dynavector 20XL, LP12/Circus/Lingo1/Ittok, Majik control, 2100+Dynamik, Ninka speakers. Also Naim CD5+Flatcap.

A friend recently lent me a Naim Powerline to play around with (I am a bit of a sad experimenter with mains cables, mainly home-made. I concluded that it is very difficult to improve upon the cables that come in the box with the equipment.)

I tried the powerline on various parts of my vinyl playback system. I found that on the Control and 2100 it made a significant difference to the sound, but ruined it. Timing went, everything louder, more bass, and an artifical sounding treble that made high notes "shine" if you can understand what I mean.

Then I tried it on my Lingo 1. Astonishing improvement. Much more tuneful, rhythms tighter, background details appear, much more tied together sound.

The other thing is, that I swear that my CD5 sounds better even though the cable is on the Lingo. Could the powerline be providing some sort of mains filtering function? I understand that the Lingos are known to do bad things to the mains, and it might be the the Powerline isolates mine a bit from the rest of what is going on.

Anyway it is such a clear improvement that one is on order.

By the way, while I have got the attention of you wise people, what is the weak link in my system now? If you were to upgrade one box, what would it be?

Thanks
don
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Post by Moomintroll »

Glad to hear you're having fun.

I'm not sure how much truth (if any) there is in the Ling doing "bad things to the mains". I'm sure this story came about due to earthing issues experienced by Naim pre-amp users when they added the Lingo and their pre-amp had been relying upon earth to the LP12. There was (still is I think) a modified cable from Linn (CONN 401E) which corrects this. Search the Naim Forum for "CONN 401E" for the full (?) story.

This won't be the issue here.

Can't imagine why your CD should sound any different with the Powerline on the Lingo. Does it sound better still if the Lingo is completely unplugged from the mains?

Upgrade - if you listen to more LPs than CDs, then consider a Radikal to replace the Lingo. If more CDs than LPs, then listen to a Linn DS.

Have fun.

'troll
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Post by Charlie1 »

donuk wrote:By the way, while I have got the attention of you wise people, what is the weak link in my system now? If you were to upgrade one box, what would it be?
Hi Don. To my mind there is nothing that leaps out so depends what you're looking for really.

Radikal would be biggest boost to musicality and also improve the sound quite a lot too.

2nd hand Mk 1 KK would give you more musicality and better controlled and refined sound - less hi-fi and impressive though. 2nd hand Exotic with Dynamik is another good option but not heard it myself

6100 + aktiv cards would give you better musicality and flow and expand the sound way beyond the speakers. Not heard 4200 aktiv but that should be even better.

Majik speakers would give you cleaner and smoother less distorted sound.

Radikal would be my first choice as it's the greatest musical leap I've heard and also a substantial sound improvement. Maybe check out Majik speakers after that if you want to focus more on cleaner sound.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Moomintroll wrote:Upgrade - if you listen to more LPs than CDs, then consider a Radikal to replace the Lingo. If more CDs than LPs, then listen to a Linn DS.
I forgot about the CD player so I think Troll's advice above is best to follow.
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Post by donuk »

Thanks guys - what a friendly forum this is!

Perhaps the beneficial effect the Powerline is having on my CD player (which it is not connected to) is more psychological than electronic! More likely the affect of unplugging all the equipment and plugging it in again, making the interconnect and power cables tidier could well account for a little more life in the CD player.

I should have mentioned that my LP12 has a Tramp2 which is sitting on Isoblue supports. I will enjoy things as they are at the moment, and perhaps consider active later on.

Cheers, Don
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Post by Ludwig271 »

lejonklou wrote:My findings differ from yours, roots man. I do agree that to a certain extent, power cords can work slightly differently in different systems. I still find it surprising that not all systems react in the same way when replacing power cords.

This system dependancy is however very small - I still have a bunch of the Ching Chengs that you mention and don't find them very good in comparison with the newer and better cords. Not in any system. So in my opinion it's at least 90% "the quality of the cord" that matters and less than 10% "works well in this system".

In a similar way, I also think most good HiFi components can be mixed and the result will be musically good. The matching of components is again a low percentage of the final result. Lots of people in this business focus on optimal matching, but I think this often comes as a result of 1) focusing on the sound rather than the music, 2) using an inferior source and/or 3) not having a properly installed system.

When the reproduction is not convincing to begin with, the quest for perfect matching easily results in hiding one problem behind another.

Just my 2 cents.
My system consists of:
Unidisk1.1
Kairn
4xLK140
Keltik
In the past I did a lot some mess with power cables (shortening, changing plugs, etc.). I would now like to restore my gear with best LINN power cables.
Please advise type, manufacturer and where can I buy them. I live in Milan Italy, but I can place an order to any European supplier through Internet (if supplier does have it and can ship to Italy).
Thanks.
Ludwig
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Post by ThomasOK »

Charlie1 wrote:
Moomintroll wrote:Upgrade - if you listen to more LPs than CDs, then consider a Radikal to replace the Lingo. If more CDs than LPs, then listen to a Linn DS.
I forgot about the CD player so I think Troll's advice above is best to follow.
I agree with this as well. Another interim step might be to upgrade the Lingo 1 to a Lingo 2 as it is quite a bit less expensive than the Radikal (but nowhere near as big a musical improvement). Although you might want to wait a little on upgrading to a newer Lingo until the dust settles on the new announcements.

I wasn't able to try the Naim Powerline on a Lingo but your findings on the other Linn equipment is similar to what I found trying one in my system. As noted earlier, I did find the same kinds of problems with using it on the Radikal in my setup.
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Post by lejonklou »

Ludwig271 wrote:In the past I did a lot some mess with power cables (shortening, changing plugs, etc.). I would now like to restore my gear with best LINN power cables.
Hi Ludwig and welcome here!

I'm afraid it's not easy to find the very best sounding power cords. Currently Linn supply cords from Volex and I think these are very good. The problem arises when you try to order them: There are many variations. It doesn't really help trying to order them directly from Volex either, as they have a policy of changing parts without saying so.

Last year my stock of Power One cords ran out and I really needed good sounding cords for both US, UK and European markets. I spent a lot of time searching and making connections with people who kindly helped me getting cords with the right specifications. I am particularly pleased with the UK model, which is an out of stock model that I bought the entire last batch of. But you need European Shuko cords and I still have some of the best model for sale:
http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=600

If you need any further help or advice, have you spoken to Paolo of Key Systems, in Rome? He's a very competent retailer!
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Post by Ludwig271 »

lejonklou wrote:
Ludwig271 wrote:In the past I did a lot some mess with power cables (shortening, changing plugs, etc.). I would now like to restore my gear with best LINN power cables.
Hi Ludwig and welcome here!

I'm afraid it's not easy to find the very best sounding power cords. Currently Linn supply cords from Volex and I think these are very good. The problem arises when you try to order them: There are many variations. It doesn't really help trying to order them directly from Volex either, as they have a policy of changing parts without saying so.

Last year my stock of Power One cords ran out and I really needed good sounding cords for both US, UK and European markets. I spent a lot of time searching and making connections with people who kindly helped me getting cords with the right specifications. I am particularly pleased with the UK model, which is an out of stock model that I bought the entire last batch of. But you need European Shuko cords and I still have some of the best model for sale:
http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=600

If you need any further help or advice, have you spoken to Paolo of Key Systems, in Rome? He's a very competent retailer!
Thanks for your quick reply.
I just read some posts on the link you mentioned above and checked my cables:
Unidisk1.1: Ching Cheng-writing from unit to wall
Kairn: Ching Cheng-writing from wall to unit
LK140's:Pirelli-writing from wall to units
Do power cables need any time to perform at best?
What do you suggest to do?
Thanks.
Ludwig
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Post by lejonklou »

I can send you some power cords to try. Then you can decide whether the improvement is worth the expense. If not, you just return them.

I've sent you a pm.
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

lejonklou wrote:I also think most good HiFi components can be mixed and the result will be musically good. The matching of components is again a low percentage of the final result. Lots of people in this business focus on optimal matching, but I think this often comes as a result of 1) focusing on the sound rather than the music, 2) using an inferior source and/or 3) not having a properly installed system.

When the reproduction is not convincing to begin with, the quest for perfect matching easily results in hiding one problem behind another.
Good point Lejonklou, that might explain why some lower priced systems can sound better than more expensive systems (i.e., not having a properly installed system, etc.).
Tony Tune-age
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New Linn Power cord with Schuko plug

Post by Pedro »

New standard Power Cord from LINN

On occasion of upgrading my RADIKAL with the new DYNAMIK at my dealer, I noticed that the new RADIKAL had new Power cord type: “… Longwell –P 2011”. The name is on the cable and on the plugs (Schuko and connector plug).
At home I compared the new power cord with my favourite, the LINN “Tongyuan” power cord.

I found the new one considerably more musical.

Same findings with the UNIDISK 1.1, AK KONTROL and CHAKRA 4200.
Rest of the hifi-system is LP 12 SE with URIKA and AKIVA and KELTIKs (torque-settings details for speaker adjustements from Thomas were very helpfull !).

I have tried the new power cord on all equipment and the musicalty increases.

During the plugging I noticed, that the connector plug fits like a glove in contrast to the TONGYUAN connector, which is a little a wobbly.

Has anyone else tried the new power cord?
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Post by ThomasOK »

Well Pedro, this is interesting news which I read with both anticipation and a little dread. The dread comes from the idea of having to change over all my beloved Tongyuan cables for Longwell versions and doing the tests to confirm their superiority and whether they, too, are more musical with Hubbell AC plugs. The anticipation is over being able to upgrade my system yet again at a quite modest price. Also dread because it makes my "unobtanium" Tongyuan-wired system less exclusive countered by the anticipation of being able to maximize the performance of all my customer's systems as well.

I have not seen a "Longwell" Linn power cord in the US yet. The most recent unit I received from Linn (about two weeks ago) still came with the Ta Hsing cable. Of course, Linn go through cables for different areas at different rates so it could be a while before they go through their stash of North American Ta Hsing cables. I look forward to hearing the Longwells whenever they do manage to get them into the US market.
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Post by lejonklou »

I agree with you, Pedro. The new Longwell cable is indeed very musical. I have so far only seen it in Shuko (Euro) version, in the UK it seems a Volex cord is still supplied.

I have tried some other variations from Longwell, with other plugs and connectors, and found another model which is about as good as the one Linn supplies. Other models have been worse, so the name Longwell doesn't guarantee anything.

What I'd like to know is which direction of the Longwell cord sounds best. I first borrowed one which had the text on the cable running from wall to product (I call this WITH TEXT). Now I've bought one with the text going from product to wall (AGAINST TEXT). But I haven't had the chance to compare them. Anybody knows?
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Post by ThomasOK »

So is the Longwell form a different vendor than Volex with different plugs? That makes it even more interesting. I thought Pedro was just talking about another Volex with yet a different wire supplier, not a whole different cable supplier. It will indeed be interesting to listen to these when they make it to the states.
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Post by Pedro »

Hallo Fredrik, the text is going from product to wall (AGAINST TEXT) on all 5 power cables. On Monday I can look over at my dealer, if he has a power cable WITH TEXT.
I have made photos of the plugs. The schuko plugs seem to be smilar, the connector plugs could be different.
The Longweel cord is a little more flexible than the Tongyuan cord.

[I send the photos to Fredriks emailadress, because i have no possibility to store them on a publicly accessible web server. If Fredrik would be so nice and insert them under the text.]

Kind regards
Pedro
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

ThomasOK wrote:So is the Longwell form a different vendor than Volex with different plugs? That makes it even more interesting. I thought Pedro was just talking about another Volex with yet a different wire supplier, not a whole different cable supplier. It will indeed be interesting to listen to these when they make it to the states.
For those of us in the United States...ThomasOK will keep us updtaed (I hope).
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Post by Pedro »

Hallo Fredrik, my dealer has only Longwell power cords 'AGAINST TEXT', so that I couldn't make a comparison.

On occasion of Bob Dylans 70.day of birth (24.5.1941) I listened to his Album 'The FREEWHEELIN' (1963) (Columbia SACD Stereo, 2003) on the UNI 1.1. My favorite piece is 'Don't think twice, it's all right'.
With the Longweel power cords it's absolut amazing to hear his finger picking style guitar play and harmonica play, finest accentuations become still more realistic.
Its like a 'DYNAMIK' for the whole system.
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Post by lejonklou »

After having played with my new Longwell "against text" for a while, I must say that my initial optimism has faded. It's not quite as good as I first thought and my guess (just a guess) is that "with text" is the better sounding cable direction.

When I first tried a Longwell "with text", I thought it was better sounding than any of the Volex cords, although a tad overblown and uncontrolled in its character. In comparison, a Volex Tongyuan "with text" was tight and correct, but holding the music back a little. It was as if they were on opposite sides of perfect

The new Longwell "against text" is similar in the way that it impresses with a very open and full blown sound. But just like the first one I evaluated, it balances on the edge of becoming uncontrolled and slightly out of tune in the bass. Today I find that the Volex Tongyuan that I had still lying beside the Radikal actually beats it by a small margin. It's a bit strangled in comparison, but better at keeping the melody together and making sense.

Pedro: Regarding the Longwell being more flexible than the Tongyuan, this is usually a question of age. The PVC they're made of is heavily doped with softeners, which will leak out with time (and pollute our planet) and the cable then stiffens. Although it may seem a bit ridiculous, I have found that gently bending and "massaging" a stiff cable will make it sound slightly better.
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Post by paolo »

Hello, I've been trying a Longwell "with text" some time ago. It replaced a Bahoing "with text" for a while: first impression was positive, with a more dynamic and free sound, but after some days I revertd back and found the old cable substantially more tuneful (more exact, controlled and pitch accurate).
Cannot comment on Longwell "against text" cause I've never seen one jet, but for now I think the old Tonguyan and Bahoing are still the best.

Paolo
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Post by Pedro »

After listening 2 weeks with the Longwell power cords and a check back with the Togyuans, I can confirm comments from Fredrik and Paolo to some extents.

With the Longwell power cords the music is more open and dynamic and less constricted - but the sound remains exact, controlled and pitch accurate.

For example: in a recording with a pianoplayer and a singer they play music more together, less side by side, the voice is full-bodied, more natural, the piano notes oscillate longer).

In jazz recordings the double bass is lower but remains tuneful (Keltik low frequency setting is 20 Hz, the listening room is open to the dining room and kitchen, all in all 70 sqm), cymbals develop more fundamental tones.

At the Akkurate Kontrol the difference is most obvious, at the old Kremlin Tuner the difference is not substantial (the only unit without dynamic power supply). Maybe the new Longwell power cords (…- P 2011) are appropriate for the new Dynamik power supplies.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Well here goes! I had promised a few people I would check into the newest Linn power cable to see how it performed as it sounded promising. Of course, nothing is ever as simple as it seems, as this tale will show. As has been mentioned on the forum Linn has started shipping a new power cable from a different supplier. The Longwell cables made their way to the US a couple of months ago and I have been working towards this evaluation for a while. As stated this cable is from Longwell who makes the plugs and the wire themselves. In terms of the basic construction of the wire it is the same as we have seen on the older Volex cables be they Tongyuan, Baohing or Ta Hsing wiring – 3x18 gauge, SVT, unshielded with molded on IEC and AC plugs – so not a different construction but all parts from a different vendor.

Early reports on the Longwells have been variable with some finding them better than earlier cables and some not liking them as well. Some of this may be due to different construction in different areas (the wire in Euro and UK cables is different than in North America as are AC plugs) but also not all the cables supplied by Linn have the wire going in the same direction. Having given a quick listen to one of the new Longwells and liking what I heard I tried to gather what I would need for a good, scientific comparison. I had as my references the Tongyuan/Volex wires with Hubbell US AC plugs that had been burned in on a Vidar machine several years ago. I then had three Longwell cables that I also ran on the Vidar cable burn-in machine: one with stock connectors with the wiring in each direction and one with a Hubbell AC plug with the wire in the With Text direction (meaning the text runs in the direction of the power flow from the wall to the component, Against Text being in the opposite direction – from the component to the wall). I also had one stock Longwell With Text that was NOT burned-in on the Vidar as some comments from Fredrik and Paolo about questionable musical effects of a different cable burn-in device on interconnects lead me to decide I should verify the efficacy of the Vidar machine on these cables.

[A brief aside: it will come as no surprise to most that this will end up being a rather lengthy post as I do have a reputation for being somewhat wordy at times, even though I have been in danger of loosing that standing recently on the forum. However, in order to save my fingers at least a bit of typing I really don’t intend to type “Longwell, With Text, Vidared, Hubbell AC plug” each time I refer to that cable! So I will be using the following abbreviations: V for Vidar burn-in, H for Hubbell AC, WT for With Text and AT for against text.

All comparisons were made with just the cable going to the Radikal (latest Akurate/Dynamik version) changed and the rest of the system remaining as it was. Since it is not only the source but also supplies both the motor and the Urika with power it will certainly make the biggest difference here. The in place Tongyuan was unplugged and replugged a couple of times to make sure dirty contacts weren’t part of the change. Also all comparisons were done in MONO! One of my ATC woofers is in for repair apparently having been stretched beyond its limits (yet I can still hear – how strange!) and is having a new surround fitted. So I set the KK/2 to Mono and listened to one speaker. I think it is fair to say that imaging specificity and stage width did not figure into my comparisons. ;-) The Tune Method is even easier in mono.

So for Session 1, I started out with my Tongyuan /AT/V/H vs a Longwell /AT/V. For the music I started out with “Maiden Voyage” by Herbie Hancock from the album of the same name. My initial finding was that both cables sound quite good. At first the Longwell sounds clearer, as if you could hear deeper into the background. But then the trumpet made some notes that sound a little off – sometimes even harsh. One or two loud/high trumpet notes even cause a slight wince. There is also more apparent surface noise. The Tongyuan, on closer listen, appears to delve as deeply into the music but is better balanced. Loud/high trumpet notes do not sound harsh – they have power but also beauty. There is a more natural feel to all the instruments. Piano and drums sound more real and less forward. Music flows better and my body moves with it more. So overall the Tongyuan is still the most musical and flowing.

Longwell /AT/V vs. Longwell /WT/V. With text is definitely better on the Longwell. The excess surface noise of the AT is back to more normal on the WT and the trumpet is no longer so harsh on the loud/high notes. I am bopping more to the music on the WT – it has better flow. I’m sure this will be closer to the Tongyuan. Obviously the With Text is the proper orientation for the Longwell cables. (That’s good as the vast majority I have seen coming from Linn have been of the With Text direction.)

Longwell /WT/V vs. Longwell /WT/V/H. Aaahh! The addition of the Hubbell AC plug makes the music feel more relaxed yet more intimate. Details are apparent but not overbearing. Great flow. It seems the Hubbell gives the same benefits over the molded on Longwell plug that it did over the molded on Volex of the Tongyuan.

Longwell /WT/V/H vs. Tongyuan /WT/V/H. The Longwell is very good but the Tongyuan still betters it with both configured identically. There are subtle beat frequencies that the trumpet and the tenor sax make when playing together that are easy to hear on the Tongyuan but somewhat obscured on the Longwell. The Tongyuan still feels better and lets you hear more of the musician’s skill.

Longwell /WT/V vs. Longwell /WT/noV. Here is where we try to see what the Vidar burn in really does and I have to say I’m surprised. The non-Vidar cable separates out the background instruments better and has an even more natural flow and feel to the music. There is real additional detail – not the artificial forwardness like the AT Longwell. So it appears that the Vidar process, applied to these Longwell power cables, does actually make them a bit less musical. I would not have thought this to be the case but it is what I am hearing.

Longwell /WT/Stock vs. Tongyuan /WT/V/H. OK, now we get to hear the real winner. The stock Longwell brings the instruments a little more in the room. Subtleties of playing are clearer and the flow of the music is better. None of the Tongyuan’s subtleties are lost, they are just bettered. The music is so good it brings an actual sigh 30 seconds into the piece as you relax into the music. It becomes hard to A/B compare the stock WT Longwell with the Tongyuan as you find yourself forgetting to listen to the things you are trying to compare and just getting caught up in the music each time the Longwell is connected. It is easier to hear the quieter notes and instruments among the louder ones.

For a last comparison I switch to Steely Dan’s “The Last Mall” from “Everything Must Go”. Once again the stock Longwell WT takes the prize. With it there is more texture in the bass notes – you can almost feel the strings vibrating under your fingers! Drums, guitar and vocals are all more textured, nuanced and just real sounding. And even more BOOGIE! If you don’t feel a need to get up and dance to this song then your system just ain’t got it!

So that was the end of my first listening session with the new cables. It did answer several questions but it also raised a couple that I didn’t have enough pieces to answer. On the plus side the Longwell is a really good cable and I think it is likely the best I have ever had in my system. The comparisons made it obvious that With Text is the way to go on this cable and that the Hubbell AC plug still makes an improvement with it. Yet it also appears that running the cable on the Vidar removes more of the music than the Hubbell brings to it as the only cable to actually beat the Tongyuan was the stock Longwell WT! So to sum up it seems Longwell – good, WT – good, Hubbell – good, Vidar – not so good, AT – not good. Unfortunately I didn’t have another Hubbell AC plug handy or another stock Longwell WT either to do a comparison for what should be the ultimate Longwell cable. It seems that has to wait for Session 2!
Last edited by ThomasOK on 2012-03-30 23:58, edited 1 time in total.
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