Power cords

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bonzo
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Power cords

Post by bonzo »

am i correct that aftermarket power cords dont have much of an impact on gear with switch mode power supplies, but DO have an affect (improvement is the goal here) on units with torridal transformers? im thinking specifically my lingo2. has/is anyone using power cord other than the stock linn, and with what results? ty
lp12, Keel, K Radikal, Urika, EkosSe/1 Kandid KK1/D, JBL 708p
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Post by lejonklou »

No. In my experience, switch mode power supplies are just as affected as regular transformers by the differences between power cords.
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Re: Power cord other than Linn

Post by Azazello »

bonzo wrote:is anyone using power cord other than the stock linn, and with what results? ty
I use the Lejonklou power cord, it's better than the original Linn chords I used before.
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Post by ThomasOK »

I agree with Lejonklou that the quality of the power cord is audible on ALL components. You will definitely hear an improvement on the Lingo by using the best power cord. That said, most of the expensive and/or fancy power cables out there do not improve the tunefulness of Linn components (or most others). I have listened to a fair number of expensive aftermarket power cables as well as quite a few original equipment ones and find that majority make the system worse.

The best power cable I've been able to find that is currently available in a US configuration is the current one Linn supply. The wire has the following writing on it: "(UL) SVT E159216 VW-1 3X18AWG BAOHING CSA SVT LL112007-1 VW-1 3X18AWG LF". The plug has what looks like a large M with a bar across the top on it and the plugs are marked "Volex". It appears to be Volex part number V1625. I have compared this with a number of earlier Linn power cords and with several very expensive cables and I like it the best. It can be ordered from any Linn dealer and sells for about $35.00US. The Linn part number is CONN 014.

Interestingly enough it is not just Linn components it improves. I recently sold one to a customer on the basis of an A/B comparison with the stock Rega power cord on their Apollo CD player. The improvement was substantial and he immediately said "I need one of those". I also use one going into my power strip and it is again better than the cable supplied with the unit.
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Re: Power cord other than Linn

Post by Music Lover »

Azazello wrote: I use the Lejonklou power cord, it's better than the original Linn chords I used before.
Agree.
I also use Power One.
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Post by paolo »

I use Fredrik's Power One too. It's the best mains cord I've tried so far, substantially better than the standard cord that Linn actually supplies in Europe. The latter is different from the American one described by Thomas and not that good in my opinion.

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Post by sommerfee »

In my ears the actual one from Linn (BAOHING GTSA-3 N14586 H05VV-F 3G1.0mm2 + Volex plug in Germany) is best (regarding tune-dem of course), but it does not seem to fit well with all Linn equipment. It fits well with the actual stuff from Linn, and also with an old Majik, Kairn and Klout here, but not with an AV5103 + AV5215 combo - it makes them sound harsh and surprisingly much worse in terms of tune-dem.

So as resumée I assume that Linn always matches the actual equipment to the actual power cord and vice visa. And the very old stuff with was developed using an old Volex power cord seems to fit very good with the actual one, but the ones developed using the Shing-Shang (or something like this, must take a look this evening) power cord not.

The Power one does not seem to be such diva, in my ears it's not so good with actual Linn equipment as the actual power cord coming from Linn itself (but a very good one anyway) and its a worthy upgrade for all the "older" Linn equipment.

And I can confirm that it a worthy upgrade for some other equipment as well, we tried it on a Shangling and a Creek CD player and both benefited from the other power cord.
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Post by Music Lover »

Strange.
A better cable should be better regardless of the unit used.

Just checking, was a Lingo connected to the power outlet in one test but not the other.

btw, did you compare with the short or long Power One?
I find the short quite a bit better (own both).
Not only in tune dem but the shourter is also more tight in the bass and more "fun and alive". Overall it has more PRaT :mrgreen:
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Post by sommerfee »

Music Lover wrote:Strange.
A better cable should be better regardless of the unit used.
Maybe this has something to do with unit/power cord interaction between the components? I hope Fredrik can say more about that.

And maybe some power cords reveal a weak point more than other power cords? Think of an Arcam+AE set, which is a very enjoyable system. But if you connect them to an Artikulat 350A I'm sure you get a non-enjoyable system, although the Artikulat 350A itself is clearly better than the Arcam amp + AE loudspeakers. Maybe one can get similar effects when playing around with power cords?

Maybe I just have strange ears? :mrgreen:

But this is all pure guessing from me, of course, I'm totally clueless about the background.
Just checking, was a Lingo connected to the power outlet in one test but not the other.
No Lingo was connected at all, the test systems were: Classik-T, Classik-T with Klout, Uni1.1+Kairn+Klout, Uni1.1+AV5103+2xAV5125, Mimik+Majik.
btw, did you compare with the short or long Power One?
Since I own one short and one long Power One, usually I used both. So the systems above which has three (or four) components were not fully connected using Power One. (But I have enough "old" and "new" Linn power cords to test both, single replacement and complete change as well.)
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Post by paolo »

Interesting...
I've found the last BAHOING Linn power cord quite bad indeed, the music becomes bigger and more open but quite bland, unrhythmic and uninteresting with my system. This is surely a new one (Uni 1.1, Kontrol, Chakra2200, Aku242). This is very strange cause I've heard very mixed commnets about this new cord from various trusty tune-dem oriented sources.

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Post by Music Lover »

paolo wrote:Interesting...
I've found the last BAHOING Linn power cord quite bad indeed, the music becomes bigger and more open but quite bland, unrhythmic and uninteresting with my system. This is surely a new one (Uni 1.1, Kontrol, Chakra2200, Aku242). This is very strange cause I've heard very mixed commnets about this new cord from various trusty tune-dem oriented sources.

Paolo
Can it simply be that some cables are correctly made and some dont?
Just one example; the cable direction may be correct on the outside but the 3 internal wires aren't...

Not very likely that trusted "tune demers" suddenly lost their abillity to follow the tune :roll:

Anyone owning MANY of these Linn cables that can test each to check if all having same quality?


As some countries use different plugs, these chould affect the tune.
UK has a differnt plug.
But Germany and Sweden (and most EU countries) use same plug.
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Post by lejonklou »

Music Lover wrote:A better cable should be better regardless of the unit used.
I used to be certain that a better cable is a better cable, period! It works that way with speaker cables and with interconnects, why should power cords differ?

My current position is that a better cable is a better cable, but there are some special cases to consider. One special case is when you have two power cords that sound a bit different, but are close in sound quality. Then you might find that it varies between different systems/mains conditions which cable wins.

One such example is the 1m Power One versus the 2m. Initially I found the short version to be slighly better, and this was the case on all components in my own system. But when installing systems for customers I have many times tested "all short" against "all long" and to my surprise sometimes the long cords perform better.

The sound character of the length is still the same (short has slightly more attack while long has more decay) but when evaluating with the Tune Method, the result is that some systems seem to need the attack and others the decay to perform a little better. There might be some kind of logic in this, relating to what components are in the system, but so far I have not found it. At one point I wondered if it depended on the quality of the mains electricity, but on second thoughts that didn't seem likely.

So far I have only found this "system matching" to work with cords that are very close in quality. Changing to a cable that is clearly worse just makes everything worse, regardless of the system.
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Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote: The sound character of the length is still the same (short has slightly more attack while long has more decay) but when evaluating with the Tune Method, the result is that some systems seem to need the attack and others the decay to perform a little better. .
Fascinating stuff :shock:

An idea…
What about mixing them – some long and some short.
Maybe there is a “super mix” between attack and decay :D
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Post by lejonklou »

Yes, it is possible that a mix could be even better, but it takes time to evaluate and requires a full setup of each of the relevant power cords. Questions like this, with multiple variables, are often solved by trial and error over a long time. I take notes of everything I do and what the results were and then I can later go back and see if there are any patterns.

Regarding varying quality of the cords, this can, at least in some cases, explain contradictory results. I have had a few Ching Chengs (old Linn power cable) that sounded like they were broken.

But I have tested a lot of Power Ones against eachother and have so far not found any variation in quality. This might have to do with the fact that they were all made at the same time, in one large batch.

(moving this to 'Hifi')
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Post by paolo »

Can it simply be that some cables are correctly made and some dont?
Just one example; the cable direction may be correct on the outside but the 3 internal wires aren't...

Not very likely that trusted "tune demers" suddenly lost their abillity to follow the tune Rolling Eyes

Anyone owning MANY of these Linn cables that can test each to check if all having same quality?
I did have the same suspect so I got some (3) of the new Linn cords and tried again, but with the same result. I just couldn't stand with them and sincerely I'm surpised that others find them good tune wise.

Anyway I'm still curious to compare them with the old Ching-Cheng cord that Linn used to supply some years ago, still their best ever in my memory (though less tuneful than Power One).
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Could someone please measure Length and Diameter?

Post by Ceilidh »

ThomasOK wrote:I agree with Lejonklou that the quality of the power cord is audible on ALL components.....

The best power cable I've been able to find that is currently available in a US configuration is the current one Linn supply. The wire has the following writing on it: "(UL) SVT E159216 VW-1 3X18AWG BAOHING CSA SVT LL112007-1 VW-1 3X18AWG LF". The plug has what looks like a large M with a bar across the top on it and the plugs are marked "Volex". It appears to be Volex part number V1625. I have compared this with a number of earlier Linn power cords and with several very expensive cables and I like it the best. It can be ordered from any Linn dealer and sells for about $35.00US. The Linn part number is CONN 014.

Interestingly enough it is not just Linn components it improves. I recently sold one to a customer on the basis of an A/B comparison with the stock Rega power cord on their Apollo CD player. The improvement was substantial and he immediately said "I need one of those". I also use one going into my power strip and it is again better than the cable supplied with the unit.
Hello People!

Could someone please help me with my treasure hunt? :D I can't get a Linn power cord through my local dealer (I've tried), so I'm trying to find one through industrial sources. Linn (USA) tells me :

"Here is what you want to look for; VOLEX 10A - 125V This is what we issue with our products and would be the best choice if available."

Volex cords are "SVT" and "SJT", and from ThomasOK's post (quoted above), it looks like Linn uses "SVT". So going on these two tidbits of information, there appear to be 13 possible Volex cords readily available through mouser.com. To narrow things down still further, may I please ask those of you with new (US-spec) Linn equipment to take a close look at your power cords? Here's the info that'd be helpful:

1) Could you please confirm that the writing on the cord says "SVT" somewhere on it, and not "SJT"?

2) Could someone please measure the length? Choices are 6ft (i.e., 2.0 yards); 6ft 7in (i.e., 2.0 meters); 7ft 6in (i.e., 2.5 yards); or 9ft 10in (i.e., 3.0 meters).

3) [Most Important!] Could someone with a good set of calipers please measure the diameter of the cord itself? The choices here (if it really is an SVT cord) are:

a. 0.246" (6.25 mm) (This is an unshielded cable.)
b. 0.253" (6.43 mm) (This is a foil-shielded cable.)
c. 0.307" (7.80 mm) (This is a foil and braid shielded cable.)

I'm a little despairing of whether anyone can really discern between choices "a" vs. "b", but "c" should be easy to pick out. Or, if the diameter is ~.250" and someone knows whether the cord is shielded or unshielded (e.g., has anyone ever cut one of these cords open and noticed any shiny foil inside?), then that would nail it too. (And length is helpful here too -- e.g., Volex only makes one unshielded 2m SVT cord, and that cord is pretty hard to find in the US).

In any case, the industrial-supply prices are pretty good! For SVT cords in the roughly 2m / 6ft range, they're ~$5 for unshielded; ~$7 for foil-shielded; and ~$18 for the foil and braid-shielded model -- all for single quantities.

Thanks very much! If anyone can help me with the above measurements, I'll post up the most-likely Volex model number and a link to an industrial-supply house that carries the cord (Thomas, the Volex parts numbers are 5 digit, beginning with "17xxx", and the 4-digit "1625" number you found on your cord appears to be a power rating -- though there's a discrepancy here, as 1625 corresponds to a 13 amp cord, not to the 10 amp cord that Linn USA has suggested I look for....).

Thanks again everyone!

-C
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Post by ThomasOK »

Hello Ceilidh,

I will do what I can to help in your quest but I also have a simple solution that could bypass it altogether. I work for a Linn dealer and if your dealer won't order the cables for you I will be glad to sell them to you. We don't normally sell outside our market area but for a simple product like a power cable if your local dealer won't expend the energy, we'll be glad to help you out. We normally keep a few of the CONN 014 in stock and we sell them for $35.00 plus shipping. If you wanted 4 or more I'd throw shipping in free.

As to finding the EXACT same cable from another source you may have a difficult hunt. Although Mouser does indeed carry a fair number of Volex cables, I don't believe that any of them are the same model. We have tried to see of we could use them as a second source but with no luck so far.

However, if you want to go on the search here is some confirmation/additional information:

1) Although this isn't exactly an additional confirmation I can state with certainty that the cable is an SVT - I have one in front of me as I type this.

2) Just the cable 6'1", including ends 6'7" would be very close.

3) No calipers but it appears to be a. 0.246". This agrees with the fact that it is the unshielded cable as I can confirm due to having chopped the plug end off a couple of them in some experiments with AC plugs.

Just as an additional help here are any additional numbers on the plugs. AC plug (the end with the pins) E62405SP, PS204, SM1, 8, Volex and a couple of symbols. All on the part of the plastic where the pins protrude. I believe the PS204 is actually the model number of the plug. IEC plug (the one with the slots) V1625, 10A 125V˜, SM1 on bottom, E62405SP and some symbols on top. The end only has the number 2 and indications for l(ive), N(eutral) and the ground symbol. There is also a lone T in the center of each plug. The single digits noted above (8,2) are most likely batch nombers or something similar as I have different numbers on different cables (4,6 on another one in hand).

In checking Mouser and even Volex themselves I have been unable to find the exact same cable. I have recently found one that I at first thought was the same but which is not. It has all the same markings but it is almost exactly 12" longer! I have not had a chance to test it yet but I plan on checking to see if I can hear a difference due to the greater length. I can sell you these cables personally for $20 each. I will post again when I have had a chance to compare.
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Thank You!!!

Post by Ceilidh »

Dear Thomas,

Thank you very, very much for all the information and measurements!! (And please forgive my tardy response: I've been away for a week, and just got back in today -- but part of my trip involved a stopover at my parents', and I finally got to install some solder-on speaker connectors!)

1) The shielded / unshielded info is really critical -- thank you! It's strange that Linn's chosen an unshielded cord (at industrial quantities, the price differential must be close-to-negligible, so there must be a reason for the unshielded choice -- but what can it be?). If you hadn't told me, I would have gone completely down the wrong path here.

2) Thank you for the power-cord offer as well. I've recently "won" an eBay cord that may or may not be the right one, and if it turns out to be the wrong cord (it hasn't arrived yet), then I'd be grateful if I could purchase a cord through your store.

3) Yes, I'm going through the same catalogues that you've gone through (and of course I should have realized that you've been through all this long before me!!), and it does look like Linn's using a non-stock cord: the Volex 17250 is about 12" too long, and the Volex 17249 is about 6--7" too short.

If I had to guess, perhaps Linn is using a custom cord in the 17249/17250 family: i.e., one identical to those two in all respects save the cord length (note: the Volex data sheets list the 17249, 17250, and 17251 as family members of different (Imperial) lengths and colours). Presumably Linn wanted a metric length?

(P.S. -- the Volex catalogues aren't too user-friendly, are they? (!) But yes, it looks (from the datasheets) that "PS204" is the model number of the plug; I've also talked again with Linn, and they confirm that the IEC plug should be V1625 -- so it looks like we're on the right track...)

4) In any case, I'm guessing that the 12"-too-long cord you have is a 17250 or 17251. If so, and if that cord has all the correct markings, then perhaps the (shorter) 17249 might be a reasonable substitute for the official Linn power cord? After all, if it turns out to be made of all the correct components, but with 7" less length, then it should sound pretty good, shouldn't it? (Or can the power supplies be tuned to the length? I'm assuming a shorter cord will pick up less noise, but if they're tuning for length, then perhaps all bets are off....)

I'll put in an order for a 17249, and when it arrives I'll report back on the markings. Hope it works out, and thanks again for all the details!

- C
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Completely in Error!!! (May I please buy a cord from you?)

Post by Ceilidh »

Hi Thomas,

I'm very sorry -- please ignore my previous post!! The cord you have (the one that has the correct markings but is ~12" too long) is probably NOT a Volex 17250, but instead a Volex 17757 (I misread the Volex catalog, and the plug reference is mislabeled in the Mouser catalog....). This appears to be the only stock Volex power cord that's 10A, 125V, SVT, and terminated with PS204 and V1625 plugs.

(Note: if you ever find time to compare your too-long cord to the official Linn item, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts!)

All best,

- C
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Post by ThomasOK »

Hello Ceilidh,

I also was on vacation last week and just got back. I'm not sure as to the reason for not using shielding but it seems that the unshielded cables sound better. I recently compared a couple of outlet strips from CablePro one of which had a permanently attached shielded cable and the other had a removable unshielded cable of the same manufacture. The one with the unshielded cable sounded better and is what I now use for power distribution in my system - although I use a Linn power cord as that sounds better yet. I believe that Fredrik has also found that unshielded works better and uses it in his Power One cords (correct me if I'm wrong on this) which are also quite good.

Due to the vacation I haven't been able to do the comparisons I wanted to but I did a brief A/B in the store and both I and another salesman felt the longer cable was actually a slight bit better than the shorter Linn cable. Many have found that shorter is not necessarily better - there really is no hard and fast rule on it. Once I get time to do some more comparisons I will let you know.
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Post by lejonklou »

ThomasOK wrote:I believe that Fredrik has also found that unshielded works better and uses it in his Power One cords
Yes, Power One is unshielded. I did try shielded versions of it, but none of them were any good.The only reason for these results that I can think of is that the capacitance of shielded cables becomes much higher and unnecessary capacitance between live, neutral and earth is in general not a good thing for sound. At least not in the power supplies I have built.

So while shielding sounds great in theory, I haven't yet found it to be necessary in hifi cables. This includes interconnects - one can make good interconnects that are non-coaxial (unshielded). They do get slightly more sensitive to electrical disturbance, but this is often not a practical problem.

Many have found that shorter is not necessarily better - there really is no hard and fast rule on it.
I agree. After having installed Power One into many systems, I can only say that the best sounding length (1 or 2 metres) varies. The short wins more often, but sometimes the longer is clearly better. I have not yet found a logical pattern that can predict which will win.
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Voodoo works =)

Post by Ceilidh »

ThomasOK wrote:Hello Ceilidh,



However, if you want to go on the search here is some confirmation/additional information:

1) Although this isn't exactly an additional confirmation I can state with certainty that the cable is an SVT - I have one in front of me as I type this.

2) Just the cable 6'1", including ends 6'7" would be very close.

3) No calipers but it appears to be a. 0.246". This agrees with the fact that it is the unshielded cable as I can confirm due to having chopped the plug end off a couple of them in some experiments with AC plugs.

Just as an additional help here are any additional numbers on the plugs. AC plug (the end with the pins) E62405SP, PS204, SM1, 8, Volex and a couple of symbols. All on the part of the plastic where the pins protrude. I believe the PS204 is actually the model number of the plug. IEC plug (the one with the slots) V1625, 10A 125V˜, SM1 on bottom, E62405SP and some symbols on top. The end only has the number 2 and indications for l(ive), N(eutral) and the ground symbol. There is also a lone T in the center of each plug. The single digits noted above (8,2) are most likely batch nombers or something similar as I have different numbers on different cables (4,6 on another one in hand).

In checking Mouser and even Volex themselves I have been unable to find the exact same cable. I have recently found one that I at first thought was the same but which is not. It has all the same markings but it is almost exactly 12" longer! I have not had a chance to test it yet but I plan on checking to see if I can hear a difference due to the greater length.....

Hello Thomas,

My Volex (#17757) power cord came in today! It has exactly the markings indicated in your two earlier posts, save that the cord also says "105C" in addition to everything else, and I have slightly different (single digit) batch markings. And, yes, it's a foot longer than two meters.

The cord's intended for my parents' system (a demo unit that came without a powercord, so we have some random computer cord hooked up for now), and I won't be able to test it there for a couple of months or so. But just for fun I've tried swapping it with the older Linn cord on my Klout. And surprise surprise, this audio Voodoo business works! The difference is slight (and sadly, I can hear it better on my right ear than my left, as I seem to have damaged the treble hearing on the leftside somewhere along the way) but consistent, and it is in fact a little easier to sing along with the new cord than it is with the old (though the older cord has a looser-fitting IEC plug, which might have something to do with it).

Thank you again for all the help on identifying the right cord! :D

And going back to the Voodoo business for a moment: I used to think it the most absurd thing that people would fuss over a power cord (after all, how could a 6-7ft cord hung on the end of miles of (decaying in the U.S.) industrial infrastructure possibly make any difference?). But from seeing Mr. Lejonklou's capacitance comment, it's starting to make some sense. Do I understand you two correctly that an audio power supply sends a lot of high-frequency feedback back down the cord? If so, can I presume that the power cord, with its two endplugs that serve as impedance discontinuities, begins to serve as an electrical resonator of sorts? And if that's the case, can I assume that a careful audio company (like Linn) will tune its power supplies to sound / work best with a particular cord, and that changing the electrical properties of that cord (e.g., the capacitance, inductance, dielectric properties, etc.) will likely degrade the power supply performance, and hence the sound?

Or is something else entirely at work?

Anyway, I'm very happy with my new cord -- thanks again for all the help and info!

-C
Last edited by Ceilidh on 2007-08-18 14:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lejonklou »

Ceilidh, the only thing I can answer to your proposed explanations is "possibly". I have not measured the amount of disturbance that Linn's units send out through the power cord, but one interesting thing to note is that the discontinuities that you mention (wall socket to plug, plug to cable, cable to connector, connector to power inlet) have a major impact on the sound of the power cord. Specifically, the contact pressure has to be "just right" for the cord to sound good.

It is also clear that the electrical distance between each hifi component, when going from power inlet to power inlet through the power cords, has an affect on sound. But still you can also hear the difference between power cords on a single unit such as a Classik.

I agree that it's strange they should matter at all.
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Post by ThomasOK »

To be honest, I have no idea why it matters - just that it does. I'm not an electronic engineer and most engineers I've met are clueless about why these things work - there is much we do not yet understand about electricity. There are any number of things that seem as though they shouldn't matter yet they do.

If you think the idea of a power cord making a difference is strange just think how ludicrous it seems that the direction of a fuse should make a difference! Here we are talking about a single strand of wire that the power passes through and yet the direction that it passes through makes an audible, though admittedly small, difference. Furthermore, the tightness of most of the screws and bolts on an LP12 have a substantial impact on the tunefulness of the turntable such that a difference of .02Nm or .04Nm of torque is clearly audible.

We tend to find out most of these things by trial and error and in some cases just dumb luck.
Ceilidh
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Wrap Up

Post by Ceilidh »

lejonklou wrote:...one interesting thing to note is that the discontinuities that you mention (wall socket to plug, plug to cable, cable to connector, connector to power inlet) have a major impact on the sound of the power cord. Specifically, the contact pressure has to be "just right" for the cord to sound good.
ThomasOK wrote: ...IEC plug (the one with the slots) V1625, 10A 125V˜, SM1 on bottom, E62405SP and some symbols on top...
Ceilidh wrote: This appears to be the only stock Volex power cord that's 10A, 125V....V1625
Hi Everyone,

Just to wrap up this part of the thread: on my last trip home, I discovered a piece of paper tucked in with the Knekt bananas that LinnUSA had kindly sent to me -- it was from the sales engineer who's been helping us out (and helping us out wonderfully!), and it was an addendum to the email he first sent me. On it he stressed that the Volex 10A 125V cord I should be looking for has to have a V1625 plug. So apparently that's important! (And, perhaps, it's why the European Linn cord isn't as highly regarded -- presumably EU cords take different plugs?....)

Anyway (to summarize): the commercially-available cord most similar to the stock (N. America) Linn power cord is the Volex 17757, which appears to be identical to the Linn cord in all respects except length (the 17757 is about a foot (~30cm) longer). It is available from a variety of industrial/electronic supply houses, such as Mouser Electronics:

http://www.mouser.com/search/refine.asp ... olex+17757
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/631/941.pdf

Pricing as of October 2007 is $5.43 (U.S.) for a single cord, $3.60 apiece for 25, and $2.91 apiece for 100 -- i.e., if it works as well as the stock N. America cord, this is one of the better performance bargains out there!

Many, many thanks to ThomasOK (and to LinnUSA) for all the help here. :D

-C

P.S. -- please note that Mouser mislabels the plugs used by the 17757 (this is what threw me for a while). The correct specs appear on the Volex website:

http://www.volex.com/index.php?option=s ... &Itemid=80
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