Klimax DSM and Akurate DSM

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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ThomasOK
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Post by ThomasOK »

lejonklou wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:It has been stated on the Linn forum by a Linn engineer that "The analogue volume control on the Klimax DSM is the same as that used on the Klimax Kontrol."
To me, this sounds like a statement you can interpret any way you choose. My guess is that he refers to the analogue volume chip being the same in KDSM as in KK/1. The same chip is also used in Kikkin, by the way.
I agree and noticed that it wasn't mentioned whether it uses the dual-mono volume circuit that was the main feature of the KK/1. He didn't say which KK it has the same volume control as.

In answer to your other comment about the interest in these units I agree that neither unit holds any interest for me personally. I love the Klimax Kontrol (just ordered a new one) and I have both an LP12 and a Pekin that I want the best possible musical quality out of.

It has been made very clear to me that the DSM units do represent a musical compromise compared to separate components. This is what you would expect as a result of incorporating all the necessary circuitry and switching to have all those inputs and combining a source piece with preamp functionality. Of course, it has always been the case that the most musical quality comes from having separate, optimized units for each function. The biggest question is how much of a compromise there is. As long as the KDSM is still a fair bit musically superior to an ADS/1 and AK/1 then it will find a certain market among those willing to give up a little musical quality for the extra functionality.

Let's face it, Linn has been asked from the very beginning why they didn't include digital inputs in the DS units so the excellent DACs and supporting circuitry could be used to improved other sources. They have always said that it would compromise the musical quality of the unit to do so. Now they have answered the call and we will be able to see how much musical quality is lost to provide these functions. Some people will love the idea of all the digital inputs and I bet they get great reviews. After all the DSMs could well be considered the Audiophile version of the music lover's DS.

My expectation is that the ADSM will do well if it is priced where I think it will be. The combination of near ADS streaming quality with near AK preamp quality in a single chassis along with all the extra digital inputs at a savings of around 30% will be very attractive to a number of customers. I can think of one customer right now who this will be the perfect fit for. As I said I have suggested this type of product for some time and I think it is well placed for the intended market. An Akurate customer is one who is willing to accept some compromise in ultimate musical quality compared to the best for a substantial reduction in price. The ADSM fits well with this type of customer.

The KDSM is the one I have a bit harder time believing it will be a good seller. Klimax customers are those willing to pay for the best so whatever loss of musical quality there is will be more important. There will still be sales to those who really want the extra inputs and are willing to give up a touch to get them and you can still connect a KDSM to a KK/1 for likely even better quality and more analog inputs. But I also suspect, if the analog volume control is close to KK quality, that the KDSM will appeal to those who are trying to forego a preamp - either to reduce box count or just to save the money. You have to admit that near KDS quality streaming with a usable preamp capability (as long as the preamp section is musically superior to an AK/1) for only an additional $2800 will be an attractive way to save money to some. But still I see it appealing to a smaller percentage of Klimax customers than the ADSM will to Akurate customers.

Those wanting the maximum musical performance will still go the separates route. And really there won't be much need for the digital inputs for most people. Why connect through coax, optical or HDMI when you can stream the majority of that stuff through your computer and direct into the DS ethernet port? I just can't believe there are that many people with BluRay players who just want high-quality stereo out of them. With the new Songcaster software it sounds like anything you can get on your computer you will be able to stream through your DS. So use your computer or get an Apple TV and skip all these other inputs.

As I mentioned previously, I really think the Songcaster functionality is the most important part of this announcement. Once people can just connect a DS to their Mac or PC and store and control everything from iTunes the DS market will be poised to explode. If, as rumored, the iTunes store starts selling 24 bit ALAC music soon the explosion will be even bigger. This could well bring high-quality streaming into the mainstream and sell a lot more DS units for Linn.
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Post by ThomasOK »

lejonklou wrote:Thanks for all the info, Thomas.

I really don't see anything that I'm interested in personally in these products. Perhaps because I focus on 2 channel music and the DSM models are said to perform worse than the DS in the same range. That a preamp is included is of lower priority, as it's below the source in the hierarchy.

I also love good home cinema systems and recently did a bunch of comparisons of sound formats, the influence of storage options using the same converter etc. I don't see the DSM products offering anything of interest in that department. In the future possibly synching a stack of three DSM's to decode 5.1? Perhaps I'm missing something.

I'd like to hear from those who are considering buying a DSM. I'm interested in what makes you want one and how you're going to use it.
Anytime you want to spill the beans on your findings about home cinema sound formats, etc. I'm sure we'd all love to read it.

Looking at the KDSM info under the Linn DOCS section it is made clear that the HDMI input does not pass the audio stream through when it is being used to decode the left and right channels. It will only pass it through when in standby or when switched to a non-HDMI input. That kills any possibility of daisy-chaining DSM units for 5.1 channel operation. Should Linn ever decide to do any kind of 5.1 channel (or more) streaming/decoding it will require a completely different unit. Right now they seem to have no interest whatsoever in the AV market. In their KDSM FAQ document they actually go so far as to suggest using a KDSM for the front left and right channels and feeding the other channels into a non-Linn AV receiver and then to Linn amps and speakers! Yeah, let's hobble our Linn Klimax or Akurate surround system with a cheap Sony receiver (or even an expensive one)!!???
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Post by rowlandhills »

ThomasOK wrote:
lejonklou wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:It has been stated on the Linn forum by a Linn engineer that "The analogue volume control on the Klimax DSM is the same as that used on the Klimax Kontrol."
To me, this sounds like a statement you can interpret any way you choose. My guess is that he refers to the analogue volume chip being the same in KDSM as in KK/1. The same chip is also used in Kikkin, by the way.
I agree and noticed that it wasn't mentioned whether it uses the dual-mono volume circuit that was the main feature of the KK/1. He didn't say which KK it has the same volume control as.
According to Eamonn from Linn on the Linn Forum, it does:
To be more specific, the Klimax DSM uses exactly the same dual mono analogue volume control circuit as the latest Klimax Kontrol (KK/1).
http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread. ... #pid154253
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Post by Charlie1 »

That's more like it. Be cosy inside that box then :O)

Reckon this is a recent change anyone - i.e. the extra week delay before launch? That certainly wasn't what I heard previously.
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Post by rowlandhills »

It's just given me a thought, too, which is that assuming there's a unity gain mode, this might be a good option for people who want a KDS and KK for their stereo music, but have another system for their surround.
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Post by Charlie1 »

The KDSM in-built KK volume control is for the analogue input only. Don't know about the ADSM.
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Post by fredrik »

Having K320A + Ksub with ADS/D, Kinos and Unidisk 1.1 I would be in the market for either a ADSM os KDSM depending on performance and cost.
It would perfectly connect my TV BOX, PS3, Blueray. Ridding the older Linn components.
I would loose out a dedicated Sub out and surround capability. I would gain balanced outputs to the K320A speakers.

In my current living rear speakers don't fit.
I am not be in the market for a normal KDS, KK since I use it with my system with the TV 95% of the time.

I watch most my movies on a Laptop connected to the Plasma. Laptops in general have problem outputting surround sound anyway.

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Post by ThomasOK »

Charlie1 wrote:The KDSM in-built KK volume control is for the analogue input only. Don't know about the ADSM.
This whole question has gotten more complicated but this appears to be what is happening. One of the Linn forum members was kind enough to send this info which I confirmed in the ADSM technical specs:

Analogue sources have an optional ‘direct’ path with analog volume control. All other sources and ‘non-direct’ analog sources use a hybrid volume control. Hybrid volume control combines coarse analogue attenuation with fine digital adjustment.

Analog volume control Gain range: - 80 dB to + 20 dB
Gain resolution: 1 dB

Hybrid volume control
Analog Attenuation Selectable: 0 / -12 / -24 dB
Digital gain range: -80db to +20dB
Digital gain resolution: 1dB

As can be seen only the analog sources, when using the optional direct path, run through the analog volume control. All digital sources run through the digital volume control as is also the case with the KDSM as Charlie1 noted. Linn claims that their DAC has such low noise that running the digital signal through the analog volume control would increase the noise and produce poorer sound quality. This may be due to the analog volume control being in the same case and fed from the same power supply as all the digital circuitry but Linn hasn't commented on that question, although it was asked.

It seems like Linn built in the fixed analog attenuation on the ADSM so that the digital volume control could be kept near the optimum range without external attenuators - an interesting way to deal with this. Apparently the KDSM does not work this way - at least there is no mention of this in its technical specs. It appears that its digital volume control, which is used on all but the analog input, is basically the same as the one in the KDS/1 so the KDSM should improve musically when run through a KK/1.

So somewhat convoluted overall and it has taken days and lots of direct questions for Linn to clarify these volume control systems. Now we'll just have to see how it all sounds!
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Post by Charlie1 »

I don't understand why Linn can't just answer these questions straight, or get all the detail out in one go. They have enough experience with their forum and dealerships to realise that these questions will come up. The products are now complete, so there seems little point in being coy. They work the way they work and that's it now. Instead of which, it seems like an episode of Mission Impossible to get to the truth.
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Post by Music Lover »

ThomasOK wrote:
So somewhat convoluted overall and it has taken days and lots of direct questions for Linn to clarify these volume control systems.
This is a HUGE mess!
So now it's not a KK mkII built in any longer as previously (at some point) stated hehe ?
Well, knowing the size of the KK board I was quite skeptical when a Linn engineer wrote it was "exactly a KK inbuilt".
Especially considered that the KDSM also need to host a new board managing the new features and in/outputs.
Dying to see pics on the KDSM boards, any takers?
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by Charlie1 »

Music Lover wrote:Well, knowing the size of the KK board I was quite skeptical when a Linn engineer wrote it was "exactly a KK inbuilt".
Especially considered that the KDSM also need to host a new board managing the new features and in/outputs.
Dying to see pics on the KDSM boards, any takers?
I was led to believe that most of the KK audio board is for accepting all those pre-amp connections and that the volume control element is actually not that big.
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Post by Music Lover »

Charlie1 wrote: the volume control element is actually not that big.
Yes but the quality is determined by the total design. Well designed in/output stages are important.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by fredrik »

I must say after installing Songcaster from my PC the interest for ADSM/KDSM as a replacement for my old rig has decreased quite a lot.
Esp after the clarifications on the Volume control..
Although, I would have to listen to XXXM before make further comments on performance.

Songcaster does 90% of what I would use the XXXM product for.
Songcaster is according to me the biggest and most important feature added to the DS systems since launch.

:)

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Post by tmilligan »

ThomasOK wrote:With the new Songcaster software it sounds like anything you can get on your computer you will be able to stream through your DS. So use your computer or get an Apple TV and skip all these other inputs.
Sorry, I am perhaps being slow... How would I use an Apple TV to stream to a DS?
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Post by ThomasOK »

tmilligan wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:With the new Songcaster software it sounds like anything you can get on your computer you will be able to stream through your DS. So use your computer or get an Apple TV and skip all these other inputs.
Sorry, I am perhaps being slow... How would I use an Apple TV to stream to a DS?
I may have been getting ahead of myself there. Since the Apple TV is basically a stripped down Mac designed for accepting and streaming media I was thinking Songcaster would work with that. As I've learned more about Songcaster I've become aware that it will require software that has to be installed on your Mac or PC to work. Because of the minimal nature of the Apple TV it may not be possible to install Songcaster on it.
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Post by tmilligan »

ThomasOK wrote:
tmilligan wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:With the new Songcaster software it sounds like anything you can get on your computer you will be able to stream through your DS. So use your computer or get an Apple TV and skip all these other inputs.
Sorry, I am perhaps being slow... How would I use an Apple TV to stream to a DS?
I may have been getting ahead of myself there. Since the Apple TV is basically a stripped down Mac designed for accepting and streaming media I was thinking Songcaster would work with that. As I've learned more about Songcaster I've become aware that it will require software that has to be installed on your Mac or PC to work. Because of the minimal nature of the Apple TV it may not be possible to install Songcaster on it.
Ah understood.

I've just got Songcaster running on my MacBook Pro, in under 5 minutes (including download and reboot). Its brilliant. If nothing else, at least now I can play new CDs when they first turn up while I'm waiting for twonky to pick up new FLAC files!

If I can find a way of getting the audio from my Blu Ray and Apple TV into my MacBook and out via Songcaster I'll be out to buy a KDS/1 in a shot. If not, it might have to be an ADSM.... :(
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Post by fredrik »

tmilligan wrote: If I can find a way of getting the audio from my Blu Ray and Apple TV into my MacBook and out via Songcaster I'll be out to buy a KDS/1 in a shot. If not, it might have to be an ADSM.... :(
After confirming that:
1. Songcaster is only 16 bit 44KHz (at the moment at least)
2. DSM players can accept SACD and DVDA over HDMI from a different source
3. Listening to the ADS/1 showed greatly improved timing compared to ADS/D, but soundwise it was not an upgrade for me (That really ruled out ADSM without listening to it)

I have now scratched all my home Theatre Dreams and will trade in my complete existing setup; Uni 1.1, Kinos, ADS towards a KDSM.

I heard that on the DSM players Songcaster is currently noisy but a Davaar update will fix it.

When I relocate back to my home country I will use the analougue input to connect my Linto/LP12.

I can now use Balanced Interconnects directly into my K320A speakers.
I will use the unbalanced outputs to my K345 subwoofer.
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Post by Lefreak »

fredrik wrote:[...
After confirming that:
...
2. DSM players can accept SACD and DVDA over HDMI from a different source
...
But the SACD/DVDA-player has to convert the signal to PCM, so DSD isn't supported "natively" by the DSM. Now even my "low-budget" Marantz AV processor (AV8003) does DSD via HDMI...
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Post by Charlie1 »

Linn forum has some more detail from a Linn employee reference the ADSM/KDSM volume control:
The hybrid volume control in the ADSM uses a combination of digital and analog attenuation. The fundamental problem with digital volume control is that the signal-to-noise ratio degrades at low listening levels. This happens because there is no mechanism to attenuate the noise generated by the DAC. The solution is to add a passive attenuation stage after the DAC to reduce the noise to a very low level.

The ADSM has three attenuation settings (0dB, -12dB, and -24dB) which enable the performance of the digital volume control to be optimised over a wide range of listening levels.

The KDSM does not have a passive attenuation stage because the noise floor of the KDSM DAC is already so low that passive attenuation would provide no additional benefit
link: http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=14374
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Post by Charlie1 »

Dem'd KDS1/KK1 vs KDSM this evening, on all Klimax system, very well tuned. We were careful to use the same shelf and Silvers for the KDS1 and KDSM and did about 8-10 tune dems. Volume was 60.

I found this very confusing. I can't say that I really came to any firm conclusion as to which was better musically. I needed more time really and was tired, although we dem'd some racks too and that was easy enough.

They sound very similar, yet different. Yes, I know that doesn't make sense. Musically, I think the KDS1/KK1 was better, but when I was tricked into thinking I was hearing the KDS1/KK1, but was really listening to the KDSM, then I thought the KDSM more musical. My mind playing tricks as I wanted the KDS1/KK1 to be better. After further listening, I do think the KDS1/KK1 is a little more musical, but I'm not 100% sure. The KDSM sounds more precise and is not labourious to listen to by comparison, i.e. I didn't feel it clearly harder to follow the music, but the timing of some instruments seemed a bit random/jerky on occassion.

Anyway, time will tell as better tune demer's get a chance to listen. Anyone buying a KDSM is certainly not getting a very digital sounding player - it is surprisingly similar to KDS1/KK1, being very analogue. Amazing, when you think their design/approach is so different.

One thing is for sure, streaming Spofity via a Klimax system sounds amazing when you consider it is worse than MP3. It is a little bit thin and plastic sounding, but I only really noticed that when going back to CD quality. What a great way to get into new music!
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Post by Audiman »

Hi

The key here maybe is "all Klimax system" Last week i spend some 3 hours with my dealer to evaluate next step. from a sheer money point a have (had) 2 ways to go: Replace my ADS/1 with a KDS or my a4200/D + M140 with K320a. As a Source first guy I though that this should be quite easy but soon discovered that so was not the case. During this quite long session the one thing that was most flabbergasting was that the superiority of the KDS is much easier to hear on the A4200/M140 vs the K320a. With the "simpler" system I could very easy detect the KDS on the K320a this was not the case.
So after 3 hours of moving around expensive electronics the outcome is that I now have the K320a home and they are not leaving....
To avoid misunderstandings the KDS / K320a is of course the best (but out of reach now) so K320a and ADS/1 is a step on the ladder but a v e r y nice step.
All testing was done with KK/1D (same as I already have.)
The Klimax speakers is something v e r y special.
//
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Post by Charlie1 »

Interesting, thanks Audiman. I hope you're right. Even so, I still can't believe that I couldn't reach a firm conclusion, but I often get thrown off when the sound changes quite a lot. Speaker placement is my favouite cos usually the sound doesn't change very much.
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Post by lejonklou »

Audiman wrote:...the superiority of the KDS is much easier to hear on the A4200/M140 vs the K320a. With the "simpler" system I could very easy detect the KDS on the K320a this was not the case.
That's funny, I've never had the experience that a better speaker is less revealing of the source.
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Post by Audiman »

Well this is a observation made by my not so top tuned ears. The decision to be made was what will give me the best solution until a full Klimax system is in place sometime in the future. To make a analogy with cars you can drive a trimmed Golf GTI as fast as a bigger BMW-M or Audi-S Class but it is a much more comfortable journey in the bigger car....

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Post by hcl »

lejonklou wrote:
Audiman wrote:...the superiority of the KDS is much easier to hear on the A4200/M140 vs the K320a. With the "simpler" system I could very easy detect the KDS on the K320a this was not the case.
That's funny, I've never had the experience that a better speaker is less revealing of the source.
It makes one wonder which of them that actually was performing the best (performance of the complete playback e.g. amp+speakers+installation)?
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