Playground for practical listening exercises

[Tony Tune-age]

if mat 2 is the Spec+ Analog the mat 1 has the wrong side up :)

SewerSleuth said he would listen to both sides of the Linn mat, which makes sense to me.

Cheers

[SewerSleuth]

if mat 2 is the Spec+ Analog the mat 1 has the wrong side up :)

SewerSleuth said he would listen to both sides of the Linn mat, which makes sense to me.

Cheers

Yes, I will, but that's not part of this comparison.

With the stock Linn felt mat, I just stuck it on the platter, and it is the way up that it is.

[Defender]

mmh do we now know what mat 1 was and what mat 2 was?
btw. we are serious about the felt mat - one side is more musical than the other - maybe you thought we are joking but we are dead serious about it
... and again when you just stuck it on the platter and the top side is what it is than you are only 50% right (this is no welcome joke for new forum members)

[Tony Tune-age]

mmh do we now know what mat 1 was and what mat 2 was?
btw. we are serious about the felt mat - one side is more musical than the other - maybe you thought we are joking but we are dead serious about it

It's very true indeed, and I remember when Thomas demonstrated the musical differences between both sides of the Linn felt mat. In addition, he marked the best sounding side of the mat, so I could know by looking, it's a real thing!

Cheers

[Tony Tune-age]

Gotcha...thanks for the clarification SewerSleuth. Looking forward to learning more!

if mat 2 is the Spec+ Analog the mat 1 has the wrong side up :)

SewerSleuth said he would listen to both sides of the Linn mat, which makes sense to me.

Cheers

Yes, I will, but that's not part of this comparison.

With the stock Linn felt mat, I just stuck it on the platter, and it is the way up that it is.

[beck]

Listening in a non analytical way for a longer period I actually ended up prefering mat 1 to mat 2 that in contrast ruin my normally relaxed way of listening.
Mat 2 is impressive in some ways but when I try to relax and enjoy it fails me.

So, I change my vote to mat 1...............


This can indeed be the recording that tricks me as I am better with the way we normally do things here.

[SewerSleuth]

I've read the stuff about TuneDem and yes I agree whole-heartedly with the sentiments that 'what sounds best, is best' and 'go with your gut feeling'.

This is exactly what I did in my front room when making a choice between Mat 1 and Mat 2, and the answer was as clear as the nose on my face... in my opinion of course.

I have an issue with just recording some music on your mobile phone and posting it as a comparison though. Most mobile phones will record the noise as a MP3 file (or similar) and this filetype is very heavily compressed, so when you are listening to it remotely via a forum, you are not hearing the 'real' sound, but one which is modified by software, one which heavily removes sounds from the background that it 'thinks' you cannot hear, which then can sometimes give the impression that the sound is clearer and sharper than it really is.

Al those quiet subtle background noises are what the artist recorded and should not be discarded in my opinion. It is one of the prime movers of high-end hifi top get all of that information out from the media in front of us so that we can hear it, isn't it? The human ear can detect it, for sure.

The purpose of making the files the way I did is because as WAV files, they are uncompressed and everything that was recorded by my system and transmitted to my computer is included in them, so nothing has been 'scrubbed out' in the interest of a small file size. It's why the files are so big and also why I didn't edit them in any way in Audacity other than trimming the start/end points.

So, I am giving you guys the best opportunity to hear exactly what my system is offering, and from then on you can make your own decisions about which mat is best without your decision being twisted by media file post processing and file size shrinking.

What you hear is what you get.

:)

[beck]

What you hear is what you get.

:)

Far from it. We are listening through our devices and that means that we need to be trained to hear the differences whatever recording method is being used.

[tokenbrit]

How many hours does the Karousel have on it now? Not sure about picking between mats if the Karousel isn't run-in, and would have been better to make sure the felt mat was right way up first...
With those caveats in place, both sounded a bit shouty to me (hence the Karousel question) - mat 1 less so, so a little easier to listen to, but mat 2 was more musical.

[SewerSleuth]

@tokenbrit

Karousel is about 10 days old, but is consistent in both tests.

[Charlie1]

Struggling to recall for certain but there was a solid step forward at around 150 hours but it kept getting better. Don't think there was much improvement between 500 and 600 hours though.

[Ron The Mon]

SewerSleuth,
Thank you for posting these comparisons. Several members here appear defensive that their preferred recording method or mat are challenged. I say bring it on. If the Spec+ Analog Disc Sheet AP-UD1 is better than a stock Linn felt mat, what is the problem? Source-first rules; I'd rather have a good recording on a mediocre playback system than vice-versa.

I first listened to SRV on Mat1 over my Mac mini/Naim amp/Isobarik system. I thought, "Hell Yeah, how can it get better than this!". It sounded like a properly set up LP12/Naim/Isobarik system. There is nothing wrong with your LP12 skills. Then I put on Mat2. Boo. Hiss.

Then I read the comments here and thought, "How could I be right and everybody else wrong?".

I listened again far more intently, now including the Dire Straits track. "Mat1" is the best by a lot. This doesn't necessarily mean I like one mat over the other as you don't mention adjusting the VTA or suspension on either. That makes me skeptical. The Spec+ Analog Disc Sheet AP-UD1 is 320 grams heavier than my Linn felt mat which I know to be stock. The Spec+ Analog Disc Sheet AP-UD1 is also .4mm thinner. Would you use a different tracking force comparing the two mats? Set-up is more important than stylus down-force.

Are you the original owner of your felt mat? Are you sure it's a Linn stock item? I'd also suggest making another recording here demonstrating both sides of the felt mat and the Spec+ Analog Disc Sheet AP-UD1. ALL mats sound better one way or the other.

As your LP12 skills appear solid, I'd advise buying a Sturtevant Cal 36/4 torquedriver and learning the proper torque values used by many here. I'd also suggest putting a "Wanted" ad here for a Cirkus sub-chassis with a price offer and your location; they are plentiful and cheap.

For under $150, you can have a better sub-chassis and torque-driver. This will get you the most musical improvement for the money.

Ron The Mon

[SewerSleuth]

@Ron The Mon

Nice words...

I played these 2 files to my wife and teenage son on Saturday after I’d made them, and they both went for Mat 2 to begin with, but then later both changed their minds to Mat 1.

One thing is very clear - Mat 2 is louder than Mat 1. At the first listen, this might easily lead one to think that it’s better, but is it really?

Nothing was changed in the recording process between the mats, so the difference in volume can only be as a result of changing the mat.

To me, Mat 2 is significantly less controlled. The bass is looser, more wollowy and the attack of drums is less sharp. All in all, I think Mat 1 clearly has the edge on control, which in turn means the music is more cleanly presented across the board.

I will do the upside downside test on the felt Mat, and out of fairness should also do it on the Spec+ Mat, but this time I’ll keep the files down to 1 song, but will do the test in the same way as previous.

I made no other changes to the setup than simply swapping the mats. That was it. Seems to me that it’s an unfair test if you change other things as well.

Oh, and I’ll let you know which one is which in due course 😀

[Defender]

can I make a suggestion - as I am afraid in the end we have no outcome because there is no structured approach:
1. make two clips with which whatever mat first - one clip one side up than the other clip with the other side up
mark the one side which comes out as better
2 make two clips with the other mat ... (see above) mark the one side which comes out better

let both best sides run against each other ... means 6 clips in total

... but maybe that was what you had planned to do anyway

Please dont try to compensate for the perceived volume difference
btw. mat 2 was the Linn felt mat according to your wording but we still dont know if it was the right side up

[lejonklou]

To me, Mat 2 is significantly less controlled. The bass is looser, more wollowy and the attack of drums is less sharp. All in all, I think Mat 1 clearly has the edge on control, which in turn means the music is more cleanly presented across the board.

I didn't judge the clips on control, bass, attack or sharpness. I try to ignore such details as far as possible, because they relate very poorly to long term satisfaction. I judged them by how easy I felt it was to understand the music. It's called the Tune Method and we use it in all our evaluation on this forum: https://www.lejonklou.com/wp-content/up ... Method.pdf

My impression of the clips, listened through the speakers of an iPhone for 5 seconds, is that Mat 1 reflects more energy back from the platter. And that messes up the music. The purpose of the mat is both to be a stable foundation for the record when the stylus moves on top of it and to dampen the vibration in the record that the stylus causes when tracking the groove. Mats that are too thick or soft may dampen the "tracking noise", but the record moves with the pressure and it causes the musicians to feel sloppy. Mats that are too thin or hard will reflect the "tracking noise" back up into the stylus, causing leading edges to become sharper and notes less pitch accurate. This makes for a subjectively impressive sound, but the musicians will sound like they're on speed, hitting harder with less precision.

Just my 2 cents.

[SewerSleuth]

Mat 1 was the Spec+ mat. To me, in my living room, the improvement is pretty big over the felt mat. The clarity of the music shines through with less muddle in the middle.

So here's test 2 - now I'm testing the 2 sides of the felt mat as has been requested here.

The recording process, equipment and setup is exactly the same as the previous test.

Just one track this time - I'll Take Care of You by Joe Bonamassa & Beth Hart.

Side 1 - https://1drv.ms/u/s!At0f4R-k6W4KkkE8QWz ... l?e=NKdiTX

Side 2 - https://1drv.ms/u/s!At0f4R-k6W4KkkIqAFV ... f?e=7hih3N

[lejonklou]

I've read the stuff about TuneDem and yes I agree whole-heartedly with the sentiments that 'what sounds best, is best' and 'go with your gut feeling'.

Sorry to be nagging, SewerSleuth, but that is not what the Tune Method is about. It's not about sound, it's about musical understanding. And it's not about gut feeling, it's a practical skill that requires focus. And once you "get it", it opens up a whole new world of being able to instantly tell better from worse.

There are frequent discussions around this subject in here. One example is this thread: https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=5396

[SewerSleuth]

@lengonklou

All I’m offering is 2 media files, with the same music recorded in exactly the same way and offered to the readers as a back-to-back test. The way I am making the recordings means that nothing is left to chance and the media files are of the highest quality that I can offer.

How you decide to measure the difference, the technique that you choose to use and the device you opt to play it on is entirely your choice.

I have already made my mind up before posting, and I’ve usually made that decision within about 10 seconds of putting the music on, but I’m listening to it in my home, with my amp and speakers, configured the way I like it. That’s my choice, and none of that ancillary equipment is valid in this test, because the test is just of the mat.

My opinion of the result, if you will allow me to have one, has been posted already.

[lejonklou]

My opinion of the result, if you will allow me to have one, has been posted already.

I understand what you're offering and I appreciate it. It's an interesting comparison.

What I asked you to do was to read up on the evaluation method we use on this forum, which is mentioned in the rules. Please do that. It's a good thing to learn what a forum is about and what the rules are.

[Whatsmynaim]

If this helps, I try to describe why I picked Mat 2.
Because Mat 1 made them seem like worse musicians not fully able to keep up with what they're trying to play.
-------
On the felt mat side test I'm picking Side 2.
The Side 1 made it sound tired, with less feeling and her singing lost some of its purpose to me.
Edit: The rhythm of the song is also less clear.

[lejonklou]

I agree about Side 2. She sings better and the bass player is better timed.

On Side 1 it feels like the bass player is hesitating, especially the third and fourth notes are vague instead of confident.

Interestingly I find the piano more difficult to tell by. The playing seems better on Side 2, but I initially felt like the instrument wasn't as well tuned as on Side 1.

[beck]

I would much rather listen to some low quality “in the room” videos made with an old iphone. That would tell me a lot about what you are hearing and why you prefer what you prefer!

[Charlie1]

Yeah, I nearly posted a preference on the felt mat orientation last night but then I listened again and wasn't so sure. They are nice sounding clips but I too think an Apple phone is the best way to go.

EDIT: Also agree with Defender ref a more organised approach and getting the felt mat sorted first.

[Tendaberry]

Mat 1 was the Spec+ mat. To me, in my living room, the improvement is pretty big over the felt mat. The clarity of the music shines through with less muddle in the middle.

So here's test 2 - now I'm testing the 2 sides of the felt mat as has been requested here.

The recording process, equipment and setup is exactly the same as the previous test.

Just one track this time - I'll Take Care of You by Joe Bonamassa & Beth Hart.

Side 1 - https://1drv.ms/u/s!At0f4R-k6W4KkkE8QWz ... l?e=NKdiTX

Side 2 - https://1drv.ms/u/s!At0f4R-k6W4KkkIqAFV ... f?e=7hih3N

Another vote for side 2, here the track moves me much more than on side 1.

[sittertal]

Also Test 2 here.