Playground for practical listening exercises

[Freddy]

wow that was fast - thats also what I hear - can I borrow your ears for another one please?

Clip 1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w6dr6wtcz7evd ... 3.mov?dl=0

Clip 2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eq8o14zdr84bb ... 3.mov?dl=0

Not so big difference but slightly like clip 1 better.

[Defender]

Today I rechecked what I was writing yesterday and want to show you how much a tiny bit of torque makes (at least I think I hear a difference - or am I starting to hear the grass grow?)

Photo of the torque driver
Clip Blue is on blue
Clip RB is right beside Blue
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5fyrf4nv8qaof ... 7.jpg?dl=0

Clip Blue
https://www.dropbox.com/s/msuy2tlzx31yz ... 6.mov?dl=0

Clip RB
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ctgwaf2l2eqp3 ... 0.mov?dl=0

[beck]

Perfect example of how little is needed to make a difference!

Clip RB is lovely. :-)

You just need slightly more “dry” acoustics in your living room. More furniture and carpets. :-)

[Defender]

I hear the same - I am already afraid it changes something else than just torques as for the Clip RB I have checked the centration of the outer platter after having torqued the screw.
Can we just x-check?

[beck]

I hear the same - I am already afraid it changes something else than just torques as for the Clip RB I have checked the centration of the outer platter after having torqued the screw.
Can we just x-check?

I am ready when you are! :-)

[Defender]

sorry screwed volume levels up - rerecording

[Defender]

Clip Blue2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0ha0pobi003uu ... 9.mov?dl=0

Clip RB2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zerfk51zvsq09 ... 4.mov?dl=0

[beck]

Great, I hear exactly the same difference. RB2 is better. :-)

[Defender]

thats good - thank you for your effort and reassuring me
I will try Linn Skeets under the loudspeakers to dry out the room.

[markiteight]

Really interesting feedback. Thanks everyone!
In room the change has made things less hi-fi, which is good, but it is also missing something. After reading everyone's feedback I listened to my clips again and agree the timing is off.

I cross my fingers that A is the upgraded version! :-)

It isn't! A is stock, B is modified. But fear not, all is not lost.

In the Dirty Weekend version of the Omen, the main driver is attached to the baffle using wood screws. The full fat Omen, along with all their other models, use metal-on-metal captive T-nuts and machine bolts. The problem with wood screws is that it is basically impossible to achieve accurate, consistent, and repeatable torque on the fasteners. Every time the screw moves in its hole a bit of material is removed and the properties of the hole change!

For reasons that will become clear in my next round of clips it has been necessary to remove and reinstall the screws often enough that I risk wearing out the threads to the point they fail. I therefore spent Saturday afternoon drilling out the holes to the appropriate diameter and pressing in captive T-nuts. I now have the ability to achieve precise, consistent, and repeatable torque values on the main drivers (the tweeter lens still uses wood screws as it is physically impossible to fit T-nuts or threaded inserts in that location).

I recorded a couple clips before the surgery and, for the sake of eliminating as many variables as possible, torqued the new bolts to the same value I had used on the screws. But, that doesn't mean the actual torque is the same! Coarse threads dragging through dense wood creates a lot of drag (I believe the technical term for this is "stiction") which will contribute to the overall torque value. Stiction and friction is significantly lower with the nut/bolt combo and they have a negligible contribution to the final torque. So while the screw driver clicks at the same torque value applied to the screw/bolt head, the actual force pushing the driver onto the baffle is different.

Also, not only is the fastener pushing the driver onto the baffle, but now the T-bolt is being pulled into the baffle from the opposite side, effectively tensioning the wood around the perimeter of the driver opening. This is going to change the resonant behavior of that panel, likely affecting the outcome in the clip comparisons.

All of this is to say that while I tried to control as many of the variables as possible in order to establish a baseline, there were just too many factors affected to draw any definitive conclusions from this comparison. Still, I have a good jumping-off point and the new found ability to dial in the torque values, which as Defender has been demonstrating can make a profound difference. The chances I landed on the optimum torque value on the first go is negligible, so I have high hopes that with a bit of fettling I'll wind up with a net gain in performance. Fingers crossed!

[Defender]

I cross my fingers and have to say I couldn’t comment on your clips because I couldnt make my mind up.
What I realised when I recorded the clips again its really hard to find the 100% same spot as the adjustment of the driver is also a „spring“ system so you have to turn the screw maybe 3degrees more than the torque you want to achieve. ... and I let it click six times.

[markiteight]

Hopefully an adjustment to the speaker position might bring the timing back into better alignment while retaining the clearer voicing.

That's a good point. With all the changes it's probably time to reevaluate speaker position. Besides, I'm not sure I got it right in the first place. I may have fallen into a trap.

Just a thought: Youtube applies compression that may affect the clips differently - do comments match what you hear in room, or differ? Do the original clips show the same characteristics as listening on Youtube?

Interesting. I only started using youtube because I ran out of room in my Dropbox account and I'm not interested in paying for additional storage. I'm guessing that as long as the compression is the same between clips, its presence shouldn't matter. Are you saying the compression youtube uses might not be consistent? Our phones also apply compression while making the recording.

Do comments on here match what I hear in the room? Nope! But that's a good thing. You all are picking up on things I'm missing. I can then go back to my system and have another listen with your comments in mind and gain a deeper understanding with what I'm hearing.

That being said, I just finished listening to Emmerson Lake & Palmer's Trilogy, an album I've never got on with. I put it on a couple weeks ago while in search for some music I was unfamiliar with and found myself more intrigued by the album that I've been in the past. Well...just now I was enthralled by the entire album. It's like I suddenly got the punchline of a joke I've been trying to figure out for years. I haven't changed anything in the system since posting the clips.

Are the youtube clips consistent with the originals? Yeah. In fact on youtube they sound softer, rounder, less hi-fi, which might make it easier to make comparisons, but it could also be masking differences. Perhaps it's time to compare Dropbox to other hosting solutions using the same clip.

[OscarH]

Lots of clips over in the Hakai playground for those who simply cannot get enough ;)

[maffe]

3 clips, same setup as #5

Next post I make will be info about what’s been going on!

B for me too, although initially (on the first track only) I thought it might be A. Useful to have a couple of tracks.

I liked the music as well. What is the first song?

That's a really nice low box count system. Am I right in thinking it's a Boazu? It seems to drive the Doriks no problem. I don't understand why Linn dealers couldn't sell many Doriks.

It’s from Jesca Hoop’s latest record
https://www.discogs.com/Jesca-Hoop-Ston ... e/13837557

SM+TM driving the Akudoriks

[Charlie1]

It’s from Jesca Hoop’s latest record
https://www.discogs.com/Jesca-Hoop-Ston ... e/13837557

SM+TM driving the Akudoriks

Thanks.

Nice setup and well deserving of the SE you added.

[markiteight]

I've been playing around with torques on the speakers, now that I'm able to do so. They really sing with torque settings lower than they were initially set (4.0Nm) and MUCH lower than what Zu recommends (9Nm). I am, however, stuck. I'm exploring the space between 1.0 and 2.0 and there are some lovely things happening in here. So lovely, in fact, I have a hard time choosing and I'm hoping for a bit of help.

1.4: https://youtu.be/MS6HT6LVQxQ
1.5: https://youtu.be/IoaUnx5E5o8
1.6: https://youtu.be/k5sopydwyf0

An interesting observation: on the last pair of clips the view count is 50% higher for A than B, so it looks like about half of you are doing A-B-A comparisons.

[beck]

The videos are blocked in my country. Weird, I had no problems the last time..........

[Defender]

same here with a reference the video contains content from SME

[tokenbrit]

1.6 was first to go - not bad, but doesn't compare to the other 2...
It's between 1.5 & 1.4, literally: can you do 1.45, and 1.35 for good measure?
I'm leaning towards 1.4, but curious whether you tried 1.3, or lower, as it'd be good to determine if there's something better in between 1.4 and 1.5, or something a bit below 1.4

ThomasOK put some torque settings for Linn speakers on 'the forum that is no more' - I want to say they were surprisingly low: maybe in the 1.1 to 1.3 range for the woofer, but don't quote me on that.

Found something here from 'a little while ago' ;)

.. When setting the torque on speaker drivers I would recommend starting at around 1Nm and going up from there as long as the drivers have metal baskets or faceplates (tweeters with plastic faceplates, for instance, might be distorted by that much torque - try starting at .4Nm instead). You also want to make sure the bolts holding the drivers in go into something solid like the T-nuts Linn uses - drivers fastened by screws going into MDF or particle board will strip out at that high a torque - I would again try about .4Nm and go up or down from there. With drivers that are solidly attached: Linn, Sonus Faber, ATC and others I have found most drivers end up somewhere between 1.2Nm and 1.6Nm but the array on the Artikulat and Akurate should be tightened a slight bit above 2.0Nm. Interestingly, Linn recommend 2.0Nm for the array when doing a service replacement but I have yet to see one come out of the box anywhere near that tight. And even if they did they would not have the level of precision needed to get the best performance. As always YMMV and I take no responsibility for broken anything caused by using the above techniques! In other words torque at your own risk. :)

[markiteight]

The videos are blocked in my country. Weird, I had no problems the last time..........

Apparently, "This video contains copyrighted material. As a result, it has been blocked in some countries and/or regions." Oh bother. It's Brandi Carlile's Cover Stories. I can't imagine why it would be blocked in European countries. Another strike against youtube.

[markiteight]

1.6 was first to go - not bad, but doesn't compare to the other 2...
It's between 1.5 & 1.4, literally: can you do 1.45, and 1.35 for good measure?
I'm leaning towards 1.4, but curious whether you tried 1.3, or lower, as it'd be good to determine if there's something better in between 1.4 and 1.5, or something a bit below 1.4

ThomasOK put some torque settings for Linn speakers on 'the forum that is no more' - I want to say they were surprisingly low: maybe in the 1.1 to 1.3 range for the woofer, but don't quote me on that.

Thanks, tokenbrit! I'm curious, what was it about 1.6 that compelled you to eliminate it?

I haven't explored torques between 1.0 and 1.4 yet but I just tried 1.7 and 1.8 and that's definitely the wrong direction.

BTW, the odd numbers are approximate. 1.5 is really 1.4+4 notches and 1.7 is 1.6+4. I can try 1.4 -2 and 1.4 +2 against 1.4, but I'll have to re-record with something the copyright bots won't flag.

[tokenbrit]

Thanks, tokenbrit! I'm curious, what was it about 1.6 that compelled you to eliminate it?

Emotion in the vocals didn't come through as well as it did in 1.4 or .5, and the togetherness wasn't quite there compared with the others.

[ThomasOK]

3 clips, same setup as #5

6a
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-pRK ... g-1280.mp4
6b
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-g66 ... V-1280.mp4

7a
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-KTQ ... Z-1280.mp4
7b
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-pQR ... t-1280.mp4

8a
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-cFC ... 3-1280.mp4
8b
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-w2D ... R-1280.mp4

Next post I make will be info about what’s been going on!

For me B Clips ...

Just a quick listen to each since I'm so far behind, but I'm liking the B clips better as well.

Now, if I have this right we pretty much all preferred one Sipsik 7.1 to two run as one channel each? And we also pretty much preferred Slipsik 113 to the older one? if so, this is quite interesting.

[markiteight]

Here's a replacement set of clips that hopefully won't get blocked:

1.4: https://youtu.be/mAclFpbS7hY
1.4 +4: https://youtu.be/a9kpE3OLXzY
1.6: https://youtu.be/E0BjPJJgvjQ

[markiteight]

And for tokenbrit:

1.4 -2: https://youtu.be/RYocWMTV9tg
1.4 +2: https://youtu.be/zMMI1dfh_7Q