Erik wrote:I have finally found a better NAS than the ReadyNAS NV+!
The Ripnas Z1000 is the best one I have tried and also vey user friendly when it comes to ripping. The downside is the price.
Almost as good and a real bargain is the WD My Book World Edition 2 1TB! It's almost as good as the Ripnas and fundamentally better than my NV+ with ES constellation discs and exchanged fan.

The WD is also fanless and comes with Twonky preinstalled.

/Erik

Hi Erik, could you describe the most important qualities of Ripnas Z1000 and WD My Book World Edition against Readynas NV+ in terms of tundem please?

Thank you
Nicolav

Per A wrote:If different NAS sound different it means the DS concept is not working, ie to separate the player from the memory.

Nothing is ever completely separated, Per. With music reproduction from network data, it's a matter of making the delivery of data less important. That the DS players succeed with. But as they sound better, it also becomes easier to hear differences that were previously not so important.

It's pretty much the same with anything we humans try to perfect.

Fair enough 8)

I haven't been able to find the S1000 and Z1000 model numbers on the RipNAS website. Is the S1000 the Statement and the Z1000 the normal one or is there some other model?

Certainly interersting the different findings on those two models! I hope we find out more about NV+ alternatives as it appears it will be going away.

Thanks for the link. The actual RipNAS website makes no mention of the Z1000.

paolo wrote:Hi,
I've tried the Ripnas S1000 (two disks version) and I've found it clearly less musical than my Readynas NV+ (RaRAIDiator 4.1.6 Twonky 4.1.17,

I know the NV+ musical performance varies with firmware used.
Paolo, you use an older Twonky than Erik and Daniel.
That is likely ONE reason you get different results.

I'm, running very old Raidiator and Twonky firmwares.
(open a new thread discussing this)

Music Lover wrote: Paolo, you use an older Twonky than Erik and Daniel.
That is likely ONE reason you get different results.

Yes I agree ML, this can be for sure one of the reasons. BTW after having lived with the Ripnas for some days while I find it very user friendly (also Asset works better than Twonky overall), I'm also VERY surprised by how much more musical the Readynas NV+ is! It's sensibly more than the kind of differences firmware versions of Raidiator or Twonky can do.

About the Twonky version I was wrong, I'm running 4.4.17 (not 4.1.17).

Paolo

Any finding for a more musical NAS possible is certainly commendable.
But IMHO any comparation between different NAS should be done with the same model of hard disk, this because I think the hdd's have a strong role in the musical performance maybe more than NAS itself.

Nicolav wrote: But IMHO any comparation between different NAS should be done with the same model of hard disk, this because I think the hdd's have a strong role in the musical performance maybe more than NAS itself.

Exactly this is what we I and many others have done.
There is a thread that ranks HDD's and NAS's independently.

Music Lover wrote:

Nicolav wrote: But IMHO any comparation between different NAS should be done with the same model of hard disk, this because I think the hdd's have a strong role in the musical performance maybe more than NAS itself.

Exactly this is what we I and many others have done.
There is a thread that ranks HDD's and NAS's independently.

Hi Music Lover,
I'm referring to comparation between Ripnas and Readynas NV+.
if I understood correctly, these units were compared with different disk inside, so it is difficult to say which is better. That's all!

Nicolav wrote: I'm referring to comparation between Ripnas and Readynas NV+.

Ahhh now I understand! No they had different HDDs. On the other side WD HDDs are normally not as good as Seagate HHDs, so that's a good indication.

I just had a chance to do some interesting comparisons that will add to the debate here. These were not under as completely controlled conditions as some, including myself, would like and I don't consider them conclusive. But I did find them interesting and it at least opens up some other options.

I have a customer WD My Book World Edition 2 similar to the one Erik recommended except that this one is a dual-drive 2TB model with 2 - 1TB drives. This unit was setup as a RAID 1 array with 1TB available and mirrored to the other drive. Since I was setting it up at the store for the customer (making sure the RAID was setup properly, updating firmware, enabling Twonky, etc.) I put some music on it to make sure everything was functioning properly. As it was hooked into the store network I played it through a system here.

Functionally it was a very simple setup. The RAID 1 is the default setup and all that was required was to enable UPnP through the WD web manager. Once this was done it showed up on my Chorus DS and the music was available as you'd expect it.

I thought since I had it hooked up I might as well do a quick comparison. The store NAS is the ReadyNAS NV+ with four Seagate 500GB Barracuda drives (probably v10) setup as RAID X. We are currently using the ReadyDLNA software on it as we had problems with the early Twonky that came on it. This configuration is why I don't consider this a defining comparison since there were different drives and different UPnP software. Still I found the comparison most interesting and I believe it certainly means that there is an inexpensive and simple NAS that is quite serviceable (although I am giving away some of the results here).

So I listened to the ReadyNAS NV+ using a specific album (Rodrigo y Gabriela - if you don't have this RUN, don't walk, to get a copy, which is also available on vinyl). I would use Chorus DS to select the NV+ and create a playlist of only this album and start a track playing, then I would switch the server to the MyBook and select the same album. I could then repeat the track on the NV+ or start it over by hitting the Play button and when I wanted to switch to the MyBook I would select its server button which would already show the album, hit Play All, and select the track. I could then reverse this to switch back. This way I could do reasonably quick A/B or A/A/B comparison.

In all my listening tests the two NAS units were quite close but I did hear musical differences. The system used was the original Akurate DS, KK/1/D, Solos and the Vienna Acoustic Klimt the Music floorstanding speakers in an optimal position. The NAS units and the ADS were connected to a Netgear GS108 switch. Listening to the first track of the album I found that the NV+ was just a touch more musical. It was a little easier to follow the music and the rhythm had a bit better flow. I went back and forth a number of times but the results stayed consistent. I switched over to the fifth track and continued to prefer slightly the NV+.

I was about ready to pronounce it my favorite when I thought about the surface each NAS was sitting on. I remembered that Music Lover and Anders from Tonläget had experimented with this quite a bit and it had also been mentioned by Fredrik and others. It occurred to me that the NV+ was sitting on a thick oak table (I'm not sure if solid or veneered) whereas I had just set the MyBook on an half-empty cardboard box on the table. This was a no-no in terms of proper testing environment. So I corrected this by putting the MyBook on the same table not far from the NV+ and redid my tests.

Interestingly, though not completely surprisingly, my musical preference was now reversed! Now the MyBook was easier to follow than the NV+ and I actually preferred it by a larger margin than I had the NV+ in the earlier test. Not only did things flow better and reveal more of the music, it was just plain more fun to listen to that fifth track on the MyBook than on the NV+ when they were both sited on the same surface. The album I used had been ripped to the NV+ and I just copied it over from there to the MyBook so they were the same files except for whatever losses might be induced by the transfer.

To me this was a very interesting series of tests as I hadn't compared NAS units or the surfaces they rest on before (I've mostly been busy optimizing the analog side of my system at home). What I found is that, while the differences were small, there were definite musical differences between these two NAS units and, in this case, even a bit more-so between the surfaces they rest on. And while this doesn't prove that the MyBook is better than the NV+ since different HDs and UPnP software is also involved, it does convince me that the MyBook is a simple to use, inexpensive and musically viable NAS for a DS system. So much so that I am tempted to buy one for home. It also backs up Erik's finding that these are musical NAS devices.

Out of the box it was more musical and more fun than the store NV+ with what has been recommended as good HDs. Considering that you get 1TB of RAID mirrored storage with Twonky preinstalled in a quiet (no fan) and compact case for just under $200 in the US and it sounds good, I think it is an easy choice for people who just want a good, musical NAS for their system with a minimum of fuss. It is also available as a 4TB (2+2) and a even a 6TB (3+3) unit and even the 6TB unit is under $499. The reviews from various writers show it to be a relatively fast and capable unit as well so I suspect it should handle the music storage needs of DS users without problem.

While it may not be the best NAS for those wanting to squeeze the absolute most out of their NAS - it is not available sans discs making disc swapping for improved performance a more expensive proposition - it is quite acceptable as it comes. It also doesn't have the expansion capabilities of higher-priced NAS units with no mention of ability to upgrade internal RAM and only single Ethernet (Gigabit) and USB ports, but the typical customer for this device is likely to have little use for more. So overall I feel it is a welcome addition to the ranks of music storage for DS owners and will likely become my go-to basic NAS for customers looking for something simple and reasonably priced. Cheap but good always ranks high in my book! (Pun not intended.)

Erik and ThomasOK, thank you for your comments on the WD NAS!
Is it noisy, or can you have it in the living room beside the hifi?
(I currently have a Qnap 109 (1 disc) this way, and as it is without fans it works alright like this.)

It is fanless and the only noise you here is the HDDs spinning.
The problem is that the model I have is hard to find but I will try a newer model. I will also try to swap the disk to a SSD one.

Erik

Thanks.
Please report back if you try SSD.

Sounds like you are talking about a one disc version? The only ones I've seen have been eith two or more discs.
Are these reasonably silent too?
Maybe ThomasOK knows?

I can't help thinking that, if there are issues with the NAS affecting the sound via the network cable, this could be completely fixed using a fibre to RJ45 bridge. That way you just have light connecting the two. A pair would be cheaper than a SSD.

Irri wrote:I can't help thinking that, if there are issues with the NAS affecting the sound via the network cable, this could be completely fixed using a fibre to RJ45 bridge. That way you just have light connecting the two. A pair would be cheaper than a SSD.

It's easy to focus on one aspect.
Normally a system is more complex with many items that can affect the outcome.
The DS-architecture IS such a system, if you study it closely.

Example, if you add two fiber converters - ok you obtain network isolation BUT their PSU's going to create noise and add distortion. To the signal and to the mains.
What is best overall then?
When we tested this, an optic network segment was less good but I think the result is only valid in my network. Each of you have to test yourself.

We have a LOT to learn about optimizing the performance. Some tweaks seems universal (works for all), some tweaks are not (example optic segment)
But...EVERYTHING is important!

Did you try with a number of different models? Did you try with battery power?

Obviously, it will have its own power supply, but so will the switch that you use without a fibre break.

My network consists of a modem/router, a switch, 2 WAPs, 2 NAS, 2 PCs, and also connects to my ISP. I'd rather work on reducing the interference from one PSU than from all the above.

monkeydevil wrote:Thanks.
Please report back if you try SSD.

Sounds like you are talking about a one disc version? The only ones I've seen have been eith two or more discs.
Are these reasonably silent too?
Maybe ThomasOK knows?

The two drive versions are also fan-less and any noise is only from the hard drives spinning. I felt it was pretty quiet but I did not try it in my living room so I can't say what you'd hear there. I did put the computer next to it at home into sleep with the WD NAS still feeding data to the MDS and I had to get pretty close to the NAS to hear the drives - at least within a couple of feet. This was with the 1 + 1TB unit so it might be different with the higher capacity units although they are all fan-less. The drives WD uses do appear to be pretty quiet drives.

Irri wrote:That way you just have light connecting the two.

In my experience, even if you have an optical bridge, sound related network qualities before the bridge are still audible. And the bridge itself has a clear impact.

Also, battery power is usually quite noisy and bad sounding compared to a good power supply. Never had any success with it.

That said, I don't rule out either of these two. It's possible they could work well if optimised.

Irri wrote:Did you try with a number of different models? Did you try with battery power?

Obviously, it will have its own power supply, but so will the switch that you use without a fibre break.

My network consists of a modem/router, a switch, 2 WAPs, 2 NAS, 2 PCs, and also connects to my ISP. I'd rather work on reducing the interference from one PSU than from all the above.

I just tried one model as I as a general view consider the simplest setup best. Also I think other aspects are more important to focus on as they clearly offer a performance enhancement in every setup. (ripping, NAS, Ethernet cables etc)

My DS network is NV+ a switch and the DS. Nothing else. No connection to the Net. No WLAN access.

ML, How do you control with your setup?

I connect an Ethernet cable from a PC (Kinskydestop) to the switch, upload a playlist, disconnect the cable and use the DS remote.
I don't use the DS-KK control cable either. No need as the volume is controlled with the remote.

Normally I use each playlist a few weeks before changing.
I rather listen to music than constantly browsing the music collection, changing tracks constantly.
I prefer listening to a complete album from the first track to the last. I often upload all records from an artist to the playlist and find it enjoyable to follow the evolution over the years.

I like big playlists too. Is it worth the effort to go your route based on Tune Dem and/or hypothesis? My gear is tucked away in the basement, so it is a bit of a bother. Not sure the family would go along.