Performance with Linn sub's

[Geoff]

I can't decide whether to Dynamik my amp, or get a sub. Has anyone ever heard, or had any experience with, one of these:

http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/XLS200.htm

I'm very intimidated at the thought of trying to set up a sub as well......

[lejonklou]

If you want my 10 cents, I am not sure I would upgrade a 5125. Although it does improve, the second hand value of the amp will not rise by much. Is the 5125 your end goal?

Integrating a sub into a system is no easy task. And to actually increase the musicality of the system, the sub needs to be better than your speakers. Otherwise you'll just get more quantity and it will be a relief to switch it off.

Sorry to be so negative, but I'm thinking there must be better options.

[Donald]

Geoff - I've no experience of subs but upgrading the AV5125 to Dynamik is very worthwhile - just do a quick Search on the Linn Forum for confirmation. Many satisfied customers including myself.

As Fredrik says, however, the cost of the upgrade will not be reflected in any second hand value - you will be lucky to get £600 for a Dynamiked AV5125.

If you intend to keep the AV5125 longer term then just do it ...!

[Geoff]

Yes, I've seen the comments on the "other" forum. Part of me wants to go to a 109, the other Ninkas, so yes, I understand your comments Frederik. A dynamik 5125 will be great for bi-aktiv Ninkas (which also may save the need for a sub...???), and also for my lowly Katans. I never worry about resale, especially since we are on the edge of the worst economic calamity history has ever seen. On top of that I live at the most likely spot to spark WWIII, so that is why Ninkas aren't really on the table as they won't be easy to bug out with. My thinking is this: with dynamik my system will be as good as it can possibly be for a relatively small upgrade, and still be portable. I only paid $800 for the 5125, the D's available are at $1200 plus shipping/duty amking it almost the same cost as the upgrade. The "forum that shall not be named" generally says do it. The new power supply gives the amp a new lease on life as I haven't heard any Klout-like failures of capacitors etc in a 5125.

I'm curious what you would recommend Frederik given I will probably stay in Katanland for at least another year. At best 109's, and the attendant amp changes, are 2-3 years down the road. I am in love with what aktiv gives me, but yes "they say" a KCT or Tundra may well do a finer job passive. I just am a bit lazy to try to sell the 5125 and track down either one of them. Common sense, and given my above assertions, says I shouldn't waste any cash on anything. I've just recently done a hyper simple upgrade for my stands (heavier steel plates top and bottom) and oh my god they are sooooo good now from where I began with passiv + Classik.

Where is a good website discussing the basics up sub setup too please?

[lejonklou]

Aktiv Katans are fun. Ninkas are imo worse - don't go there unless you really crave a more physical bass.

Passive 109's (with a good power amp) are better than aktiv Katans. And passive 140's are better than aktiv Ninkas (if you opt for a floorstander).

I have never seen a decent description on the net of how to install a subwoofer. I once wrote an article about it for the Scandinavian magazine 'Hemmabio'. Don't think they understood it because I've never seen it reprinted. Instead there's the standard goofy advice like "put your sub in the sofa and walk around until you find a spot where the music sounds good - then position the sub where you stand".

Simply put and ignoring how to connect it, you do like this:
1. Play music on the sub only and use the Tune Method in every step
2. Along the speaker wall, find the optimal position for the sub sideways, from rear wall and angle (similar to "toe in")
3. One by one, adjust all electrical parameters on the dub except level
4. Play on both speakers and sub and adjust the sub level

Please consider that if you get your sub perfectly installed, it still needs to be better than your speakers are (in the bass area) to really contribute musically. And even then it sometimes just doesn't gel very well.

[Geoff]

Thanks Frederik
Perhaps I'm fracked as there is only one place WAF/space constraint allows a subs placement. Perhaps I can angle it a bit, but there is only one spot for it. I was more worried about how to set them up frequency-wise. The Katans (Aktiv) say they roll off at 60Hz, do you overlap the sub with this, or set it to only produce lower frequencies? I think my Oppo has some primitive settings for this, and any decent sub also has settings? I think volume can also be attenuated to help with integration.

Nobody has any experience with these? Musical?

http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/XLS200.htm

[lejonklou]

The Katans (Aktiv) say they roll off at 60Hz, do you overlap the sub with this, or set it to only produce lower frequencies? I think my Oppo has some primitive settings for this, and any decent sub also has settings? I think volume can also be attenuated to help with integration.

Usually the focus is on integrating the sub with the speakers and to get the frequency response reasonably flat. My opinion is that this is nonsense (hence also my scepticism towards room correction, which almost exclusively tries to flatten the response, revealing that the designers are not interested in musicality). The sub should first and foremost be integrated with the room and produce bass notes that make sense musically. Flatness and clarity is a trap if a musical experience what we're aiming for.

Regarding which filters to use for the sub depends on which ones give the best result.

Integration of the main speakers with the sub is what remains when the sub has been well integrated with the room. Here any high pass filtering of (or rather, any manipulation of the signal going to) the main speakers will have a negative impact on the musicality, so for it to be beneficial, the gain (relieving speakers of low frequencies, less overlap with the sub) must be bigger. Often the negative dominates and you just leave the Katans as they are.

In some cases, after you have successfully integrated the sub with the room, you find that the main speakers, also well integrated with the room, don't really play along very well with the sub. Their characters are too different for the sum to become better than the parts. Perhaps choosing speakers and sub from the same manufacturer can lessen this risk (which points towards a Linn sub for your Katans), but it can happen anyway.

Low bass is really difficult to get right.

[beck]

I just want to express my relief. There are still sane people in the hifi industry and Fredrik is one of them. To hold on to this kind of thinking in a world dominated by higher, bigger, stronger is something to celebrate.
A tough job but someone's got to do it!

[lejonklou]

You are being too kind, beck. I am just sharing my thoughts.

I love deep, physical, musical bass! But quality is way more important than quantity.

[Geoff]

Musicality remains my question. That's why I keep asking if anyone has hear the ones I link to. Bottom line my Katans are a delight, but they don't communicate the lower information. I just want something that can fill in that gap within my budget and space constraints. I honour your search for perfection, without you, the world wouldn't get better.... but I'm just looking for perdy dang gud!

P.S. I hate you!! I've started trolling for 109's and amps on EBay.