Playground for practical listening exercises

[V.A.MKD]

Yes Thomas, he is playing drums excellent, but system is so good, that as you say "easy to follow what everybody is doing", my opinion is that he is slightly more ... comparing to the other musicians ... Sorry for misunderstanding ... I didn't thing anything bad ... :)

Here are a couple of clips from a change in my system:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zrv8nrocq9tit ... m.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o19oyd3riugnv ... m.mov?dl=0

Tom,
How long did it take you to make that change?

Do you think it is as big an improvement as I told you it would be? It sounds much more dynamic just over my iPhone speaker.

Ron The Mon

If you look at the time stamps it should be fairly obvious that it took me almost 40 minutes! ;-)

Actually, the replies had me confused so I went back and listened to them myself on here from the dropbox videos. That was when I realized that I somehow posted them in reverse order from what I had intended and things at least started to make more sense.

The difference between the two clips is obvious if you look at the right corner and notice that in the clip with the later timestamp the big, black subwoofer has been banished. So you are listening to the same system with an undriven subwoofer in one and the sub gone (as in down in the basement - hence the 40 minutes) in the other. The sub had its input shorted to minimize its change to the sound, but you can clearly hear that it still changes things. I find clip 1, the one without the sub, preferable with it easier to follow the instruments and to hear what everybody is doing.

That was the only change to the system for these clips. For both clips I kept the subwoofer crossover and third Tundra Mono hooked up to each other and AC but not connected to the Sagatuns (more about that in the My system section eventually). I also still had the unconnected CD12 and Kremlin in the room, but I couldn't figure out how to keep them in the same place with the subwoofer gone so they were moved. :-)

And, by the way, I have no problem with Mick Fleetwood's drumming. In fact I rather enjoy it.

[V.A.MKD]

Yes I did it. Sorry, I will be more careful in the future.

As there are several comparative clips that people are commenting, can you please make clear which one you're referring to in your posts?

[lejonklou]

The difference between the two clips is obvious if you look at the right corner and notice that in the clip with the later timestamp the big, black subwoofer has been banished.

I had not even noticed the sub appear in the second clip - shows how observant I am - I was too busy listening perhaps :)

Neither had I. I used my phone and just listened without looking at the screen.

Now that I open the films on my computer the visual difference is so obvious.

[Ron The Mon]

The difference between the two clips is obvious if you look at the right corner and notice that in the clip with the later timestamp the big, black subwoofer has been banished.

I had not even noticed the sub appear in the second clip - shows how observant I am - I was too busy listening perhaps :)

Neither had I. I used my phone and just listened without looking on the screen.

Now that I open the films on my computer the visual difference is so obvious.

Fredrik,
Now I'm confused which clip you preferred and wrote about above.

When I played clip 1 on my iPhone last night, I immediately noticed the black behemoth gone! Then again, I'm the only one commenting here who has been in Tom's living room recently. Tom had the subwoofer neatly tucked away but, in person, it is HUGE. I encouraged him that day to remove the subwoofer from the room and he said it was on his "to do" list but he would need help moving it and a place to put it. I suggested removing the driver from the cabinet as an alternative as that's what I did.

I told Tom the story of how I've been selling off my rare Fender practice amp collection and how much my hi-fi had improved because of it. It invoked a quest to remove all other speakers from my listening room. I regularly play guitar, harmonica, accordion, and trumpet in my listening room. What I don't often play is my Hammond organ. The organ included two 12-inch speakers and the Leslie one twelve-inch driver. Moving a 450 pound organ and 200 pound Leslie wasn't an option.

I removed the two speakers from the organ. All Hammonds have a line-out on the expression pedal. What I do now is carry a combo amp into the room and plug it in.

For the Leslie, I had to get creative; I found wing nuts and washers to match the threads on the studs. I also built a quick-disconnect with plugs for the speaker. It now only takes me seven minutes to get that swirling Leslie sound when I want it.

Tom O'Keefe has helped me improve my hi-fi a lot over the years. I hope he plays a record tonight and smiles because of this improvement. He was going to do this eventually. I'm happy to have have encouraged him to do it sooner.

I'd advise all of you to show some inventiveness eliminating all non-active speakers from your listening room. I have a small "treasure chest" lined with wool I use to put all remotes and phones in while listening. The new AppleTV remote has a microphone.

All hifis, no matter how good, are improved by removing all other drivers.

By the way, I just replayed Tom's clips from my computer over my hi-fi and improvement is even more pronounced. Everything is improved. With the JBL in the room, it sounds like the club owner told the band to turn down and hold back and play a little softer. Losing the subwoofer sounds like the club owner walked out of the room and the band let loose; the drums especially pound harder.

That's what I meant what I wrote above by dynamics.

Ron The Mon

[lejonklou]

Ron,

I hate it when there's confusion about which clip was which. The best cure is to put a large paper that is easily visible in the clip with "A" and "B" written on it. Not that this would have helped me today as I listened while upgrading a Gaio to version 2.4 and didn't even look at the screen...

In any case, the clip I preferred turned out to be without subwoofer. I felt that it was more musically together and making sense. The clip with subwoofer sounded more impressive and dynamic to my ears, but less musical. The only strange thing is that you (and perhaps a few others as well) think that the without subwoofer clip sounds more dynamic? That's not what I heard.

This is a perfect example of a rather common phenomenon: We who use the Tune Method will nearly always agree on what is a more musical (and therefore better) reproduction. But when we start discussing the sound, we either have different experiences or we use different words to describe what we hear.

I thought these clips were stainless steel versus aluminum screws holding the cartridge! Didn't know Thomas still had that massive subwoofer in the room.

[Charlie1]

I thought these clips were stainless steel versus aluminum screws holding the cartridge! Didn't know Thomas still had that massive subwoofer in the room.

That's exactly what I automatically assumed as well.

[Ron The Mon]

I thought these clips were stainless steel versus aluminum screws holding the cartridge! Didn't know Thomas still had that massive subwoofer in the room.

That's exactly what I automatically assumed as well.

Charlie1,
After seeing Tom and Tony Tune-age's Ekos SE/1s tonearm counterweights in person, it is impossible to use aluminum headshell screws.

Aluminum screws would cause the stock counterweight to be moved forward, which is impossible. It would mean the tracking force would need to be lowered to compensate.

Also, the torque needed for a Kandid would destroy an aluminum flat-head screw head.

What is amazing to me about this Forum is to accept the unconceivable.

Ron The Mon

[tokenbrit]

Here are a couple of clips from a change in my system...

I've tried making my mind up between your clips, Tom - w/ & w/out sub - and can't decide... Will have to hear both in person :)

Is the track meant to be a little more moody, as it is with the sub, or a little livelier as it is without?

You would have to ask early Fleetwood Mac how the track was meant to be. But I find the clip without the undriven sub easer to hear what the instruments are doing and how they play together. While the 18" passive radiator does some interesting things, I mostly find it mushes things together.

However, you have about a snowball's chance in hell of hearing the actual A/B at my house. It was hard enough manhandling that 143lb. subwoofer downstairs by myself, I certainly have no intention of hauling it back up! ...

That said, I could likely be convinced to bring it back upstairs, with help of course, should you wish to purchase it (at a good price) and take it home with you to add to your 3677s! ;-)

I typed up a response and then, somehow, it didn't post - lost to the ether...

The gist of it was that I doubt m/any in Fleetwood Mac could remember now, especially with mush(es)rooms and other influences... I should say, I thought the clips were sub on vs sub out; such was the effect of the radiator. How long have you been sub off?

No worries about hearing both since, after tuning in to the musical clarity, I preferred the first clip with the sub A/Bsent against "the second clip by worse musicians using better gear" as Fredrick so eloquently put it. Now I can no longer listen to the second clip without imagining a worse musician bangin' on the bongos like a chimpanzee so, sorry, no money for [it's] nothing doing on the JBL here.

[Ron The Mon]

We who use the Tune Method will nearly always agree on what is a more musical (and therefore better) reproduction. But when we start discussing the sound, we either have different experiences or we use different words to describe what we hear.

AMEN!

[V.A.MKD]

+1; AMEN!

We who use the Tune Method will nearly always agree on what is a more musical (and therefore better) reproduction. But when we start discussing the sound, we either have different experiences or we use different words to describe what we hear.

AMEN!

[V.A.MKD]

Nice story Ron The Mon ... great ...

I had not even noticed the sub appear in the second clip - shows how observant I am - I was too busy listening perhaps :)

Neither had I. I used my phone and just listened without looking on the screen.

Now that I open the films on my computer the visual difference is so obvious.

Fredrik,
Now I'm confused which clip you preferred and wrote about above.

When I played clip 1 on my iPhone last night, I immediately noticed the black behemoth gone! Then again, I'm the only one commenting here who has been in Tom's living room recently. Tom had the subwoofer neatly tucked away but, in person, it is HUGE. I encouraged him that day to remove the subwoofer from the room and he said it was on his "to do" list but he would need help moving it and a place to put it. I suggested removing the driver from the cabinet as an alternative as that's what I did.

I told Tom the story of how I've been selling off my rare Fender practice amp collection and how much my hi-fi had improved because of it. It invoked a quest to remove all other speakers from my listening room. I regularly play guitar, harmonica, accordion, and trumpet in my listening room. What I don't often play is my Hammond organ. The organ included two 12-inch speakers and the Leslie one twelve-inch driver. Moving a 450 pound organ and 200 pound Leslie wasn't an option.

I removed the two speakers from the organ. All Hammonds have a line-out on the expression pedal. What I do now is carry a combo amp into the room and plug it in.

For the Leslie, I had to get creative; I found wing nuts and washers to match the threads on the studs. I also built a quick-disconnect with plugs for the speaker. It now only takes me seven minutes to get that swirling Leslie sound when I want it.

Tom O'Keefe has helped me improve my hi-fi a lot over the years. I hope he plays a record tonight and smiles because of this improvement. He was going to do this eventually. I'm happy to have have encouraged him to do it sooner.

I'd advise all of you to show some inventiveness eliminating all non-active speakers from your listening room. I have a small "treasure chest" lined with wool I use to put all remotes and phones in while listening. The new AppleTV remote has a microphone.

All hifis, no matter how good, are improved by removing all other drivers.

By the way, I just replayed Tom's clips from my computer over my hi-fi and improvement is even more pronounced. Everything is improved. With the JBL in the room, it sounds like the club owner told the band to turn down and hold back and play a little softer. Losing the subwoofer sounds like the club owner walked out of the room and the band let loose; the drums especially pound harder.

That's what I meant what I wrote above by dynamics.

Ron The Mon

[V.A.MKD]

Hmmm Ron The Mon,

With the issue of "other drivers in the room" you ... back many years.

I don't know who put that issue on table, Julian or Ivor (you probably know), BUT, is that, that much important ... ???

I start to look around in living room for other drivers ... at first think that there are only "2" from the system and TV, but there are so many ... from Mobile Phones, land line, laptop, tablet and who knows what else ... looks that every peace of electronics have driver inside ... "Lucky me" don't have Apple remote ... I will have to dislocate all of them ... :) ... Haaaa one more come to my mind HEADPHONES ... 3 of them (use for Tune Method here and ...) ... Please give idea where else is hidden that DRIVER, in every days electronics ...

Also 2 other issues from the past:

1.- Inner-platter & platter Tune or what is the right word ...
2.- TT Mat Tune ...

I don't meet that issues here (it's big forum), but if here are both ... link or where are ...

Vlado

I had not even noticed the sub appear in the second clip - shows how observant I am - I was too busy listening perhaps :)

Neither had I. I used my phone and just listened without looking on the screen.

Now that I open the films on my computer the visual difference is so obvious.

Fredrik,
Now I'm confused which clip you preferred and wrote about above.

When I played clip 1 on my iPhone last night, I immediately noticed the black behemoth gone! Then again, I'm the only one commenting here who has been in Tom's living room recently. Tom had the subwoofer neatly tucked away but, in person, it is HUGE. I encouraged him that day to remove the subwoofer from the room and he said it was on his "to do" list but he would need help moving it and a place to put it. I suggested removing the driver from the cabinet as an alternative as that's what I did.

I told Tom the story of how I've been selling off my rare Fender practice amp collection and how much my hi-fi had improved because of it. It invoked a quest to remove all other speakers from my listening room. I regularly play guitar, harmonica, accordion, and trumpet in my listening room. What I don't often play is my Hammond organ. The organ included two 12-inch speakers and the Leslie one twelve-inch driver. Moving a 450 pound organ and 200 pound Leslie wasn't an option.

I removed the two speakers from the organ. All Hammonds have a line-out on the expression pedal. What I do now is carry a combo amp into the room and plug it in.

For the Leslie, I had to get creative; I found wing nuts and washers to match the threads on the studs. I also built a quick-disconnect with plugs for the speaker. It now only takes me seven minutes to get that swirling Leslie sound when I want it.

Tom O'Keefe has helped me improve my hi-fi a lot over the years. I hope he plays a record tonight and smiles because of this improvement. He was going to do this eventually. I'm happy to have have encouraged him to do it sooner.

I'd advise all of you to show some inventiveness eliminating all non-active speakers from your listening room. I have a small "treasure chest" lined with wool I use to put all remotes and phones in while listening. The new AppleTV remote has a microphone.

All hifis, no matter how good, are improved by removing all other drivers.

By the way, I just replayed Tom's clips from my computer over my hi-fi and improvement is even more pronounced. Everything is improved. With the JBL in the room, it sounds like the club owner told the band to turn down and hold back and play a little softer. Losing the subwoofer sounds like the club owner walked out of the room and the band let loose; the drums especially pound harder.

That's what I meant what I wrote above by dynamics.

Ron The Mon

[beck]

Back to A-B tests.

Choose between 1 or 2 :-)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e72v7psb780 ... rscRa?dl=0

I agree with charlie1. I prefer cable 1.

[Spannko]

Back to A-B tests.

Choose between 1 or 2 :-)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e72v7psb780 ... rscRa?dl=0

I agree with charlie1. I prefer cable 1.

Thanks beck and charlie1.

So far, that’s two for one and none for two.

I’ll wait a bit longer before the reveal, just in case anyone else would like to contribute.

[tokenbrit]

I think it's 1 for me (not) too...

[lejonklou]

Back to A-B tests.

Choose between 1 or 2 :-)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e72v7psb780 ... rscRa?dl=0

I choose 1.

Only listened to the first 10 seconds of the first two clips. Number 2 felt unbearable compared to 1. I just wanted to turn it off.

[ThomasOK]

Yes, I find cable 1 better on both sets of clips. Being a drummer it only took the four hits of the sticks together to hear that something was wrong with cable 2. But it also only took ten seconds of the guitar.

[ThomasOK]

It doesn't take long to fall behind up here. But then many of you have several hours in the morning to get ahead of me.

First to V.A.MKD, yes I understand what you are saying. It has been my experience that many, if not most, groups founded/headed by drummers tend to highlight the drums a bit much. Hey, it's their group so that's how it goes. You can probably say the same thing about keyboard players or guitarists, but we are used to hearing the guitarist louder than anybody else.

On to your question about other speakers in the room - yes, it means all of them. I went to the Linn and Naim factories in 1983 when I was working for the US importer. Linn was training the 10 dealers we brought with us and they had a session about getting the best of a system that covered the single speaker demo rooms which they had started pushing a bit before that time. They did a typical demonstration of bringing a small speaker into the room with the Isobariks playing so that everybody could hear what it did to the music. It was quite clear. They were answering questions and said that telephones, speakers in TVs and even the beeper in a digital watch would cause a musical loss. They explained that although the driver was very small, it was also exceedingly efficient, and would cause a problem. This caused one of the skeptics to ask for a demo so they did an A/B where he covered the expensive digital watch on his wrist for B. The improvement was clearly audible to all there, including the skeptic. So, yeah, this is something I have been cognizant of for a long time and have removed speakers from several TV sets over the years and made sure there were no telephones in the room, etc. The fact is there are indeed now speakers and microphones (which are speakers in reverse) in half of everything electronic. I have managed to minimize them in my listening room as it has no TV, my doorbell is mechanical and when I want to get really serious I take my watch off. (Actually, I've never been overly fond of wristwatches so I habitually take my watch off and put it on the bathroom counter as soon as I get home.) However, this also means there are speakers in the room whenever you are making a recording with your iPhone or other device. Likewise, there are probably beepers in my LS-NAS and HAKAI that I should probably rip out! The list is indeed long.

To Ron, that is a very interesting story about Julian and the grounding thing. Since I made my changeover to the LK1 and LK2 before Naim made those changes it makes me wonder what I would have thought if I had heard the improved versions.

I am in agreement that everything is improved without the subwoofer in the room and one of the things I immediately noticed in the room was the increased power/dynamism of the opening guitar. I figured the removal of the subwoofer would be visually pretty obvious but since people wouldn't know whether it was hooked up or not I felt the expectation biases could vary. Hopefully since we use Tune Method we mostly eliminate that, and it does appear we mostly did. I do agree with Fredrik on the difference between the Tune Method and how we describe things using other terms to be more variable. That is one of the biggest problems with most reviews, one person's tight bass is another person's anemic bass, one's liquid midrange is another's overly warm one, etc. I have found the Tune Method never leads one wrong. The most tuneful component, cable, speaker position, etc. will always give the most insight on the music.

The woofer has been in the room almost always disconnected with its input shorted since last April when I returned from the show. The system sounds so good I didn't miss it and I had concerns about using it, concerns that were justified. But I will save that for the My System section. Suffice it to say that after a few experiments I decided the sub no longer belonged in the room and decided to make before and after clips.

My system has gotten to such a high state of musicality that it is hard to imagine it getting better, but I still have a few ideas. You will start seeing some more clips from me to demonstrate some of these changes and some other experiments I consider interesting.

I think I will start that out with these two clips. These are very close so it may be hard to pick up much difference as both are quite good, but I feel one is a bit more right. (There is a skip midway through Clip 2. I have no idea why it happened, it was on the record and has played fine every other time?)

Clip 1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vuh9io2f2tzz4 ... m.mov?dl=0

Clip 2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qe63x073qzrb5 ... m.mov?dl=0

[Ron The Mon]

... Please give idea where else is hidden that DRIVER, in every days electronics ...

Vlado,
All or most PCs have a small speaker on the motherboard to alert you of a proper startup or faults. All it does is "beep". Remove that computer from the room and listen if it affects hi-fi playback. If it does, stuff some cotton from a swab in the speaker hole and cover it in epoxy. Many epoxies come in syringes perfect for this job. When it hardens, you'll hear a much muted "beep" and it won't affect the function of the computer.

A more difficult speaker to eliminate is smoke detectors. These are for safety. I have removed all from my listening room. However, I do have them on the ceiling on the other side of the two entries so when the doors are closed, I get best sound. When I am asleep, all doors are open. Choose safety over musical performance, but both can be accomplished.

Greeting cards that play music when you open them are very common now. These reduce sound quality as well.

Toys, plush animals, and knick-knacks can contain speakers.

Before going crazy removing any of these items, listen and see if you can hear any difference.


By the way, can I suggest when you quote a post, only quote what is necessary (as I did above in this very post). Your posts are funny and interesting but it gets tedious scrolling through unnecessary reposts. Use the Preview feature to see how your post will look before submitting. If you need help, send me a private message and I'll gladly tutor you.

Ron The Mon

[beck]

The last clip (clip 2) from your latest set of clips Thomas is right up my alley. The sounds come together as one and creates a very real feeling when listening.

[Spannko]

I absolutely agree, No1’s my favourite too. So, No1 it is then.

No1 was the Meicord and No2 the BJC.

I’d forgotten that I’d done an Ethernet cable test before, where everyone also preferred the Meicord, but on that occasion, the BJC wasn’t included.

[Defender]

@Vlado: not sure if there was a question from you about TT Mat tune and clocking the platter

The felt mat has a musical side and a not so musical side I can make clips for the playground.

Clocking the platter is also important - it makes a difference what position the outer platter has on the inner platter - like a clock if the 12 o'clock position is moving to 3 or 6 or 9 o'clock while the inner platter keeps the same.
Even 5 Minute steps are detectable.
Ron can even detect clocking the felt mat.
Some make sure the inner platter and the outer platter have a tiny small gap between each other.

[ThomasOK]

I meant to answer that but it slipped past me. Yes, I have been clocking the platter for several years and I find that a one minute difference, or even less, is audible. Start by putting a thin pencil line across the junction of the platters and listen at 3, 6, 9 and 12 O'Clock. Pay attention to which two are the most musical as it will be between those two. If they happen to be 180 degrees apart then you want to figure the third best to know what side to try. I find that you can get a good idea of where to go next by how good the different places sound. If one sounds really good it will be pretty close to there but possibly a little towards the second best. If the first and second best are similar it will be close to midway between the two. Then just keep trying smaller increments until you find where it is just right. I just finished doing one earlier today and I found a really good place but had to test both sides to make sure. I ended up back where I thought was really good but it took me a while to get back to that same exact position. When I'm done I erase one of the pencil lines and put a black marker line across the two platters. It does also make a slight improvement to have the outer platter centered on the inner platter. You need a very thin feeler gauge to get it done, or some have used pieces of post it notes. To be honest it is fairly small and I don't always bother to do it on my table.

The mat has a top and a bottom. I mark the bottom with a little sticker.

The belt has both an inside and an outside, the inside is the smoother side. It also has a top and a bottom which you find after you have the right side in place. Like all these you have to find the right orientation by listening using the tune method. I then put three small arrows on the belt with a marker pointing in the direction the belt moves when on the proper way.

[ThomasOK]

The last clip (clip 2) from your latest set of clips Thomas is right up my alley. The sounds come together as one and creates a very real feeling when listening.

I was thinking of you with the previous set of clips as well and thought you would like them.

[beck]

The last clip (clip 2) from your latest set of clips Thomas is right up my alley. The sounds come together as one and creates a very real feeling when listening.

I was thinking of you with the previous set of clips as well and thought you would like them.

Well, we have come full cirkel and I now know for sure that we seek the same. Thank you for the “battle” Thomas.
This means that I am not needed here anymore! :-)