Playground for practical listening exercises

[Spannko]

Thanks for another great bunch of clips charlie1 :0)

For me, the easiest decision is between HiCap or not, and it’s definitely not. It really seems to jumble the music up, making it quite uncomfortable to listen to.

I think the 12 was originally designed with a NAPS (24V), and this is the combination I heard easily out perform a 52/SuperCap/250. There’s also the SNAPS (24V + 24V), which I haven’t heard with a 12.

The 110 and 160 are much closer, and my initial thought was that I could happily live with either. However, after much to-ing & fro-ing, I have come down on the side of the 110 because of its ever so slightly better rhythm and tuneyness. In the room the extra power of the 160 might win the day though, and who knows what the outcome will be after they’ve both been serviced? And that cheeky little Nait 2. Is she going to sneak up on the inside to steal the crown? It’ll be a great battle, I’m sure! :0)

[Charlie1]

Thanks Spannko. I need to give the 110 some more airtime. It's been a busy week and not been around to listen to much music other than the clips. I think youre right, the 110 is more funky and nimble and goes round corners better than the languid v8 powered 160. The 110 is quite Nait like in that way. I will defo hang onto the 110, get it serviced and then compare more carefully. The 160 currently provides my ears with greater musical understanding despite sounding soft and lazy. It will be a close battle.

CB HiCap up for sale soon I expect.

EDIT: I'm investigating a third-party Y-cable that would send the signal straight from the 12S to the 160 rather than it being routed via the HiCap. The HiCap would then act as pure PSU for the 12S.

[AlbannachFE]

Better with Hi-Cap, IMO; timing is better, bass is easier of follow and is more part of the music. More controlled overall, but also more entertaining.

I've lost track of what is/isn't serviced, but for attempting to assess the ultimate potential of any components/systems using such old equipment, you probably won't get a true idea of what they're truly capable of unless they are 'firing on all cylinders'.

I've no experience with CB Naim, sadly, but, FWIW, among the Naim cognoscenti, there seems to be a few oft-mentioned favoured combos from CB days:-

12/120 or 160
42/110
32.5/Hi-Cap/250 or 135s

Also FWIW, regarding equipment being powered up, while best performance will likely be achieved with everything on 24/7, Naim used to say that keeping the pre-amp powered permanently was more important than with the power amp.

Looking forward to Nait/Nait 2 clips! :-)

[Charlie1]

Thanks for sharing your impressions.

Something about the HiCap is not working for me but I've ordered the Y-cable so see if that fixes it.

Playing Sting's debut on the 12/110 this morning and I think I've found something better than the Nait 1. It has the additional grunt for most rock music that I was looking for. Music has a little more meaning too. It probably can't convey funky rhythms quite as effectively as the Nait but that's OK - nothing is perfect.

Not sure where that leaves the 160. It's more coherent than either the Nait or 110 but quite sluggish / lazy in some ways, as Tendaberry pointed out. See how they fair post service.

[AlbannachFE]

With your system, ultimately, your opinion is the only one that matters. :-)

RE. the signal/power in the SNAIC routed through the PS, it's a fundamental part of Naim's design:-

https://community.naimaudio.com/t/why-n ... -supply/73

While some advocate what you are going to try, IME, it tends to be those for whom there a various 'mistakes' in Naim's designs that they, seemingly, feel the need to 'correct'. ;-)

However, again, your ears are the only arbiter.

[Charlie1]

Thanks for the link and also info on warm up.

[Charlie1]

12/160: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rgv38ze1m0rhq ... 0.MOV?dl=0
12/HiCap/160: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3wdcxt1n9whj7 ... 9.MOV?dl=0
12/HiCap/160 (with Y-Cable): https://www.dropbox.com/s/ikxyra5676sla ... 8.MOV?dl=0

[beck]

I would leave the Y cable behind and concentrate on the 12/160 combo. I find it enjoyable and can relax when listening to it.

[Spannko]

I would leave the Y cable behind and concentrate on the 12/160 combo. I find it enjoyable and can relax when listening to it.

+1 :-)

[Charlie1]

I agree with you both. Y-cable sounds broken.

[AlbannachFE]

12/160: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rgv38ze1m0rhq ... 0.MOV?dl=0
12/HiCap/160: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3wdcxt1n9whj7 ... 9.MOV?dl=0
12/HiCap/160 (with Y-Cable): https://www.dropbox.com/s/ikxyra5676sla ... 8.MOV?dl=0

12/160, with or without Hi-Cap, working well on this track, but, for me, Hi-Cap is better again. As before, bass line is easier to follow, with better start/stop precision, helping propel the track along, with more convincing rhythm. Equally, various instrumental lines have a more telling contribution to the whole, and, as before, it's more upbeat.

Y-cable a very distant third - quite unbalanced, and a bit of a mess, by comparison.

[Spannko]

To me, adding a HiCap sounds like the effect I get when using a mains power cable which is too big (csa) for the components being supplied. The bass gets tighter, deeper, ‘bigger’. The midrange and high frequencies gets clearer and more dynamic - all very impressive, and produces a great ‘expensive hifi’ sound. But after a while, the amazing sound isn’t enough to maintain my interest in the music and huge cracks in the musicality begin to emerge, to the extent that the ‘super dooper HiFi sound’ becomes unlistenable.

Edit: Of course, I’m only referring to the original HiCap. There have been changes to the design over the years, particularly with the DR upgrade, which could well produce a different outcome. Although I haven’t heard it myself, my dealer has said that he thinks the DR is a fantastic upgrade.

[Charlie1]

Thanks AlbannachFE and Spannko. I hear the same benefits as AlbannachFE but, rather annoyingly, also sense something gets lost in the process of adding the HiCap, similar to what Spannko reports. It would be nice to have my cake and eat it but as is sometimes the case with HiFi, I don't think that's gonna happen.

Anyway, enough of me hogging this thread with vintage Naim. I'm gonna play out with the final setup which is the unserviced cards, including MM phones (came this week with NAC42). I've also swapped the K9 for another one as it was sounding a bit rough - it's had a lot of use in the past 6 months:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/495ibkha29jia ... 6.MOV?dl=0

[tokenbrit]

Yeah, there's a certain 'impressiveness' with the HiCap that quickly comes across as insistence... I can imagine it would soon turn to irritation for me, but I don't have Naim ears. The Y-cable just left me asking "why?"

I don't see it as you hogging this thread, and you still owe us Nait 1 v 2 ... or did I miss that too? :)

[Charlie1]

The Y-cable just left me asking "why?"

Best one of the year!

CB Nait 2 arrived today. Sounds nice. Darran has been running it in so I can do that soon.

[beck]

The Y-cable just left me asking "why?"

Best one of the year!

+1 :-)

[Charlie1]

I don't like to hang about - not when work is quiet anyway...

Serviced CB Nait 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v0l03ybbpcx5k ... 8.MOV?dl=0
Serviced Nait 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lx8x4govjpmfw ... 0.MOV?dl=0

Both serviced by Class A. The Nait 1 was done about a year ago.

Not sure if I've posted clips of the main room recently - the speakers are now on another wall - in case it looks different. Still got bass issues but the Katans don't really trigger them.

Also using the Archidee table again now although I will be putting up an Audiotech wall shelf to try at some point.

Obviously the CB Nait is the winner when it comes to looks! :)

[beck]

Lovely music Charlie1.

I love the Nait1 for what it does. No fancy dress or makeup. It just makes me dive into the music only to surface again when it stops.

[AlbannachFE]

FWIW, IME, modern 'black' Naim offers a distinctly more 'hi-fi sounding' version of JV era Naim, and I much prefer the latter.

As ever, YMMV.

[AlbannachFE]

SNIP

I don't see it as you hogging this thread, and you still owe us Nait 1 v 2 ... or did I miss that too? :)

+1

[ThomasOK]

Yep, NAIT 1 does it for me better than NAIT 2 as well. More musical, less 'Hi-Fi".

[AlbannachFE]

I don't like to hang about - not when work is quiet anyway...

Serviced CB Nait 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v0l03ybbpcx5k ... 8.MOV?dl=0
Serviced Nait 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lx8x4govjpmfw ... 0.MOV?dl=0

Both serviced by Class A. The Nait 1 was done about a year ago.

Not sure if I've posted clips of the main room recently - the speakers are now on another wall - in case it looks different. Still got bass issues but the Katans don't really trigger them.

Also using the Archidee table again now although I will be putting up an Audiotech wall shelf to try at some point.

Obviously the CB Nait is the winner when it comes to looks! :)

On a quick listen, both are rather good, IMO, but Nait for me, too - more fluent, better sense of musical progression - nice!

FYI, when I received freshly Naim serviced items, I was a bit disappointed by them, and when asked, Naim's advice was to run them for at least a month, as they can take a while to 'come fully on song' post-service; in reality, I'd estimate that mine continued to improve over a period of 3 months (in fact, they might still be improving!).

[Charlie1]

FYI, when I received freshly Naim serviced items, I was a bit disappointed by them, and when asked, Naim's advice was to run them for at least a month, as they can take a while to 'come fully on song' post-service; in reality, I'd estimate that mine continued to improve over a period of 3 months (in fact, they might still be improving!).

Thanks. Perhaps we can come back to this then. The 2 is much easier to adjust the volume late at night and music comes out both channels so I will keep it in play for the time being.

This is the 2nd Nait 2 I've had. I had an unserviced Olive unit and again the Nait beat it but we'll see.

[Spannko]

Hmm. I hear it the other way! For me, it’s the Nait 2 that I prefer.

They’re both obviously excellent, but I felt that the Nait 2 made a slightly better job of reproducing the naturalness of the accompaniment. In the first half of the song, there was little to choose between the way the guitar was coming over. Although, after repeated listening I began to develop a very slight preference for the Nait 2 - it seemed just a smidge more melodious. In the second half, when the piano took over, the Nait 2 seemed to reproduce the chords much more naturally. It was as if the pitch of each note could be heard, combining to make a beautifully natural chord. The Nait 1, in comparison, just seemed to be making the appropriate piano like sounds! OK, I’m possibly exaggerating the difference, cos in reality they’re both great amps, but I do feel that the Nait 2 is ever so slightly more musical.

[ThomasOK]

I'm also liking the 12/160 more than with the Hi-Cap, which does somewhat surprise me. As to the Y-cable, it is true it should be called the Why-cable.