Driving an akurate 242 doubt???

otro5 · Post by **otro5** » 2010-07-22 12:45

I will have the chance to drive a 242 pair with a pair of solos in the 3K arrays (passive) and 4200/D aktive to the 2 basses. What do you think about this configuration???. Do you think that is better only the pair of solos???

Thanks a lot

sommerfee · Post by **sommerfee** » 2010-07-22 13:28

Although it would be possible to drive the 242 only partly active, my dealer has asked Scotland if this would be a worthwhile solution. The answer was a crystal clear "Don't do that", so I assume it would be a bad idea.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-07-22 13:30

This is quite an interesting configuration, which I suspect can be made to sound brilliant. I have no experience with it myself, but the similarities to Komri and 350P are obvious and it certainly works well on those.

If I was to install a system like this, I'd make sure to try all the options for how to connect everything. The order of the cards, the signal, the power etcetera. There are many details there that will make a difference. And put together, they'll most likely make a very big difference.

My guess is that if the installation isn't properly done, the all passive with Solo configuration will perform better. But with an optimal installation, your proposed passive/aktiv configuration will be better.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-07-22 13:35

Interesting, Axel! That certainly lowers my enthusiasm for the idea.

I wonder why they don't recommend it. Is there a problem with matching levels between passive and aktiv sections? There's only the 1 dB steps on the aktiv cards, but I suspected that would be good enough for the bass.

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2010-07-22 14:00

I have tried this and the solos passive is far better. I totally agree they are similar to 350P, but no servo bass.
The part aktiv is definitely not as tuneful....dont do it!

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-07-22 16:14

Thanks Anthony, good to know.

sommerfee · Post by **sommerfee** » 2010-07-22 17:33

lejonklou wrote:I wonder why they don't recommend it.

They haven't told us, otherwise I would have told you. But I think Anthony has posted the answer.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2010-07-23 18:45

It makes sense to me that the Solos by themselves would work better as they are so musical and there would be a consistency of drive from top to bottom that should make the music sound more natural.

While I see the comparison to the Klimax/Artikulat 350P there is an additional difference besides the 350P having servo bass drivers that makes them less comparable than it at first seems. That is that the bass drivers in the 350P only handle the low bass - I believe below about 90Hz. On the 242s the upper bass driver goes up to 450Hz and the lower to 250Hz (if I remember correctly) so you are dealing with mid and upper bass and some lower midrange. This will make the transition to the 3K array more audible and critical. Therefore the added tunefulness of the Solos would likely win the comparison.

If you were talking about going full Aktiv with 200s then the preference might be reversed as the benefits of full Aktiv operation and the reduction in work that the amplifiers have to do may tip the scales in favor of Aktiv. But even here the Solos may be enough better that passive would still win.

I have not done any of these comparisons so all this is theoretical. If you have the ability it is always best to hear the options for yourself.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-07-23 19:19

Having spent a little time in the company of a top spec Klimax system with Solos on 242 Mk2s and the same system driving Klimax 350Ps, I'd be very happy with either setup and would be more interested in hearing one of Fredrik's super-racks and what that can do for an all-Klimax system. If it's as good as claimed then I'd probably sell the Akurate amp and put it towards a Mimer. But only if I already had the KDS/D - so did you ever upgrade your ADS otro5?

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2010-09-04 07:34

Charlie1 wrote:Having spent a little time in the company of a top spec Klimax system with Solos on 242 Mk2s and the same system driving Klimax 350Ps, I'd be very happy with either setup

I bet!
Please elaborate about their merits.

Ever heard same setup with Komri?

Thomas, regarding 350P bass elements, Linn changed x-over freq going from Artikulat to Klimax (and active filters on both are again different) as you likely know.
But yes, around 100Hz on all options. (as with Komri)
That is possible as 350/Komris have an upper bass driver that 242 don't.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-09-04 14:15

Music Lover wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:Having spent a little time in the company of a top spec Klimax system with Solos on 242 Mk2s and the same system driving Klimax 350Ps, I'd be very happy with either setup
I bet!
Please elaborate about their merits.

Ever heard same setup with Komri?

I will struggle here as I couldn't really tell any major difference between the two, especially as there was a few weeks gap between hearing them and it's not my system of course. The owner said they were not that different, 242s didn't really have any obvious weakness and whilst K350Ps were better in some ways, they also displayed a weakness (something related to the bass I think). I have heard something similiar from someone else who plans to go from 212s to 242s when he moves house and has also ruled out K350s as not sounding quite right.

What I did find is that they were both very well balanced, refined and natural. Easy to focus on the music and not be distracted by anything. I couldn't really detect the K350s weakness, but I wasn't looking out for it as we'd not discussed it at that point. I've heard 242s mk2s at Cymbiosis too. Similar story. I'd need to hear them at home to be able to pin-point their influence better than that.

Never heard Komri's but would love to.

I've been told the PMC fact8's are quite good. Not as musical as 242s but still musical and much more detailed plus more bass even though they have small drivers. He said they have a special design which I can't recall that gives more bass. I wouldn't consider them above 242s based on the musicality issue, but they are cheaper.

Still not heard any ATCs either.

hcl · Post by **hcl** » 2010-09-05 14:54

It would be very interesting to play around with Klimax350 to see how good they really are. I had the opportunity to listen to them at P&S in Gothenburg and it is clear that they are very good but very difficult to position right (we spent some time on it and got them really tight, but lost the best position and did not have the time to find it again before we had to call it a night). They are very heavy and has to be positioned to 1/10:th mm accuracy which is a sweaty and time consuming combination... The acoustics of the P&S shop is not the best either...

What about Komri. How position sensitive are they? I figure they might be a bit less sensitive as they are both wide, boxy and deep and sort of controls the short time reflections within the design.

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2010-09-05 16:08

Having installed many 350s they are no more difficult than the 242s, I dont think 1/10 of mm accuracy is necessary, more impossible I would say!
Certainly within a few mm, but never left an installation unhappy.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-09-06 15:50

Perhaps you meant 1/10 cm, hcl? :)

I find that one mm can be a challenge, but often worth the effort. The challenge isn't about hearing which exact location is the best; once you get close to the optimal position, the differences appear to be magnified with each successively smaller step. Not unlike bringing a picture into focus.

For me, the difficulty lies in determining the exact position so that it's later possible to return to it. Otherwise the time spent can easily be wasted. With a really flat and stable floor, half a millimeter precision is my absolute limit. But I normally stop at 1 mm, also in my own systems.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-09-06 19:25

Complete fantasy but what we really need is a pair of laser guided remote control robotic clamps with 1mm accuracy that also have a system of measuring the tunefulness of music played in the room and linked to a DS player to keep re-playing the 1st few seconds of a track. Easy - yes? And there must be a huge market for system like that :mrgreen: And after each upgrade or trying some new kit, you can just click a button and it does it all for you again. ..it would actually be ideal for dealers 8)

hcl · Post by **hcl** » 2010-09-06 19:53

1/10 mm ...

Yes the positions need to be measured frequently. It is time and effort consuming work. In order to reach a good sound fast it is easy to get stuck optimising around a local best position missing a more global optimum ending at a ok sound.

Reaching the right position is very rewarding as everything just snaps in place. My own gear do not respond that much to sub mm steps but I found the Klimax setup to be very sensitive which is difficult as it is both difficult to consistently measure the position (due to the round shape) and to control the movements (due to their weight), As I wrote we lost the best placement (at the time) in the process and did not have the time to find it again.

otro5 · Post by **otro5** » 2010-09-10 13:50

Finally and after updating to KDS from ADS I have decided go aktive to 242 with KCT (super-treble)+solos (treble)+KCT (mid) +4200 to mid/bass and bass. I have tuneboxes black ( with chakra adaptors inside and cards for 242). Whant do you think about????. Some people thinks that woul be better go passive with solos (quinqwired).

Thanks a lot

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2010-09-10 14:18

passive with solos...biwired

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-09-14 21:25

Charlie1 wrote:The owner said they were not that different, 242s didn't really have any obvious weakness and whilst K350Ps were better in some ways, they also displayed a weakness.

For completeness, I should add that this 350 owner is now very happy. Thinks it was burn in. I also heard them again and couldn't fault them - there was nothing to mention about them at all really (in a good way) :)