More Tune Method Talk...

[Hermann]

A long time ago I tested the Bals plugs with standard cold device connectors on the other end, including C15 from Furutech, as well as with various cables. Also the Belden that he tested in another article. None of them surpassed the simple Naim power cable or Fredrik's recommended one.

Incidentally, the use of wire end ferrules for flexible cables in the mains area is mandatory in Germany, soldering or just twisting the wires is prohibited.

In fact, I used to use soldering on the screw connections of the individual wires in plugs, even when end ferrules were used. The effect was very marginal to non-existent, at least to my ears in earlier setups.

Whether you take Mr. Punter seriously or not is something everyone has to decide for themselves. My experience in the randomly read articles does not match his. I have tested many things with Lapp cables in particular and a thick Ölflex Lapp cable does not necessarily sound fat. Two of them supply the JBL 305 and show a quiet and clean sound.

It would indeed be a technological achievement if measurement methods could find parameters that could comprehensibly express certain or desired impressions of sound in numbers.

20240611_080701.jpg

[matthias]

Thanks to everyone. I was a little sure that the soldered Deltrons would be recognized. A are the Deltrons.

It should be noted that the screwed banana plugs are available per set (4 pieces) for EUR 6.90. See link below. They are also available as rhodium-plated OFC copper.

The torque for securing the cable was quite low, but I don't trust them to be able to apply any more pressure. Soldering these additionally is another option and I will do that later.

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/banana-p ... 17373.html

My favorites are the original Naim right-angled, twin loudspeaker plugs.

[matthias]

Incidentally, the use of wire end ferrules for flexible cables in the mains area is mandatory in Germany, soldering or just twisting the wires is prohibited.

You can use the Neutrik PowerCon series without ferrules.

[Hermann]

I don't know to what extent this belongs here, but:

VDE 0113 - EN 60204-1:2006/AC:2010 Section 13.3.1
(VDE - Association of German Electrical Engineers)

If devices or terminals do not have suitable connection options for multi-wire conductors, the conductor ends must be fitted with wire end ferrules or similar. Solder must not be used for these purposes.

Just to be a bit pedantic...

The controversial point is the first sentence. What are suitable connection options? If in doubt, always use end ferrules for connections with flexible power in mains operation. High currents do not necessarily flow to the power amplifiers, as measured by electric stoves, for example. However, if it were to be proven in the event of an accident that flexible ends are not crimped, it might be difficult to make claims to insurance companies. In fact, safety in this area is more important to me than a slightly better sound.

Without a doubt, the question remains as to which end ferrules should be used. Pure copper is far too soft to ensure a firm fit in this area. It is certainly an alloy that allows mechanically strong connections. Nevertheless, I will soon look at different types and will continue to experiment with them.

[matthias]

VDE 0113 - EN 60204-1:2006/AC:2010 Section 13.3.1
(VDE - Association of German Electrical Engineers)

If devices or terminals do not have suitable connection options for multi-wire conductors, the conductor ends must be fitted with wire end ferrules or similar. Solder must not be used for these purposes.

The Neutriks have suitable connection options for multi-wire conductors.

[matthias]

Back to connecting speaker cables:
Is there any consensus regarding the performance of Neutrik Speakon?

[FairPlayMotty]

Even the BBC (who liked to understand their designs from a scientific perspective) said that “Where theory and practice disagree, then theory has always been assumed to be wrong”

The Wayne Kerr state of the art gear used by Gene was made by the Wayne Kerr company in England, started by two BBC engineers. When I studied scientific methodology at university comments by the BBC weren't on the syllabus.

Linn was always populated (at the senior levels) by engineering graduates. Ivor was well qualified as is Gilad. The high level personnel at Linn these days are qualified in Acoustic Engineering (like KEF, JBL etc.). Let's be clear, engineering is applied science.

Without science this hobby of enjoying recorded music playback wouldn't exist or continue to improve.

[Rutger]

When I want to determine musical quality, a single chord from a guitar is often enough. If it sounds in tune, it's good. And I have never heard a system that was optimized for pitch correctness sounding unclear in the rhythm, or in need for any room correction programs.

[springwood64]

Split from the Playground for practical listening exercises thread.

-Moderator


The unique value of the playground comes from the clips and the discussion. I am still learning from it and still have much to learn, and it's great to hear how each of us assess clips.

Perhaps this is a discussion for a separate thread, but I still find the analysis aspect difficult, and the main reason is that while I can hear the sort of differences that have been described above, I'm not confident I can judge the superiority of one aspect of timing over another. I'm not a musician so I don't have the knowledge to deconstruct the elements of the music performance, not at a subtle level anyway.

Listening again to the clips I would not be able to offer a confident assessment of the superiority of the tuba timing or the bass note attack / decay from those clips. That's why I lean so heavily on my intuitive response.

I know what I like but I don't know why!

How have you all arrived at the confidence to make these judgements?

[beck]

I know what I like but I don't know why!

How have you all arrived at the confidence to make these judgements?

And that is all you need to know!

Different systems do not perform the same way. Systems alike do not perform the same way setup differently.

All you need is confidence in your own reaction when listening. That is key. How do you react to music and how do you react listening to your system when it tries to play music?

[tokenbrit]

Perhaps this is a discussion for a separate thread, but I still find the analysis aspect difficult... I'm not a musician so I don't have the knowledge to deconstruct the elements of the music performance... Listening again to the clips I would not be able to offer a confident assessment of the superiority of the tuba timing or the bass note attack / decay from those clips. That's why I lean so heavily on my intuitive response.

I know what I like but I don't know why!

How have you all arrived at the confidence to make these judgements?

My (ltd) confidence level comes from whether I analyze or just react to the music. If I'm analyzing that's an indicator to me that it's likely too hi-fi. If there's an engagement then it's more musical to me. Is the engagement more reliable to be confident longer term? Maybe not, but it's more enjoyable to live with than analysis... I don't think being a musician is necessarily helpful (sorry beck ;) when judging a system because musicians have a different ear that's trained and tuned to playing as much as to listening. Listening and appreciating musicianship is a different skill.

Is there some tonality and timing to A that's better? Sure, but there's also an edge that tends towards separating the musical elements rather than bring them together into a performance. Is there a compromise to B that gains and loses? Definitely: there's a sense of wooden boxiness that takes some life out of the music. If that takes away the edge and makes the music more accessible to you it's not a question of confidence; it's a matter of enjoyment, and we all find that in different ways.

Maybe back track a bit on the port plug to bring a bit of expression back, but you've got some good ears there to know what you enjoy, and that's what our systems are intended to provide.

[tpetsch]

Just the other day Fremer was walking thru yet another one of his Hi-Fi show videos suddenly stops then says , "You hear that?, that's the unmistakable sound of live music". ...Sure enough he walks down the hall, past several other rooms all bleeding their sounds into the either turns into a room and sure enough you see some musician playing live music. The significance of this is -and this has nothing to do with whether one is a Fremer fan or not- here's a guy that has heard it all, the very best of the best, including some of the most expensive unubtanium gear that most of us will only read about standing there in the middle of a current 2024 audio show where all the latest & greatest gear is playing. Then suddenly some average at best musician begins playing live music whilst a dozen other rooms themselves are leaking their sounds into the whole mix and that one single one live performance in the distance instantly strikes Fremer like a ton of bricks as something not of this environment and he instantly takes notice. I found his true in the moment, unscripted & spontaneous experience to be both fascinating and telling hearing it from him, the man that has his finger on the pulse on the industry for more than 50+ years. ...This my friends is what we strive for in evaluating Hi-Fi gear, that "live unmistakable sound" that anyone can pick up on, and 40 years into my personal journey maybe some of the gear has only gotten 10% better in this respect, and much of it has gotten worse too, we have a long way to go.

[Whatsmynaim]

springwood64 wrote: How have you all arrived at the confidence to make these judgements?

In this specific case my confidence got a bit shaky. Because both clips has their own strength!
So after listening to the clips once I instantly prefer A. Then later that day I saw most people had voted for B.
Got me thinking, am I missing something here?! I then compared both clips again and the more I listened the more I liked B,
which made me change my vote. I guess when both clips got something good it can go either way.

But I usually pick the clip that gives me the most joy. The one that makes me like the song the most. Only when that fails I start to dissect how the musicians are playing and the timing etc.
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tpetch can you guide me where to find that particular video with Michael Fremer?

[springwood64]

This discussion reminds me a little of my recent experience of trying to teach my youngest to drive, a few months ago.

We took my car to a deserted car park, and then the novice driver sat behind the wheel and I attempted to describe how the novice should control the vehicle to move off.

I immediately found it very difficult to communicate the steps the novice driver needed to understand. I realised that I had confused 'doing' with 'teaching', and that I had jumped in to an activity that needed careful thought and preparation, but not done either.

Driving is not the same as teaching driving, because many of the operations have moved from the conscious to the unconscious. When you are practiced, you do not need to think hard about (for example) the timing of easing off the clutch and handbrake while easing up the acceleration. This has become instinctive, part of your muscle memory, and requires little in the way of cognition, allowing the experienced driver to focus thought on observation, and planning the vehicle movement. For the learner however, this requires so much thought that they can do nothing else at the same time.

In order to teach, I had to return myself to the mindset of the novice and consider the steps that the novice needs to traverse to attain the same state of unconscious control.

As a consequence, the session was very unsuccessful!

We both agreed that the best course was for my youngest to have a professional lesson with someone who knows how to teach driving, and for me to help with practice sessions.

Coming back to the Tune Method then, I feel like the novice who has never benefitted from the instruction of someone who knows how to teach it, and consequently has not found a way to master it to the point that all the key aspects are internalised.

So here is my challenge! What are the steps a novice should go through to achieve mastery of the tune method?

[beck]

That is what we do here by recording, sharing and comparing clips. We try to teach each other what to listen for to reach a musical outcome.

You are doing the right things: recording and comparing different setups. Then using your reaction as a guiding tool. Is the result easily enjoyable or does your brain have to work hard to understand the result?

[Defender]

thank you springwood64, I completely agree with you and feel that the same reasons have me struggle with using the tune method with consistant outcomes.
your clip a is more engaging to me and your clip b made me able to follow all musicians at the same time thats why my thought would be B is more musical as it was also more relaxed.

But more teaching tips on the tune method would help me too.

[lejonklou]

That is what we do here by recording, sharing and comparing clips. We try to teach each other what to listen for to reach a musical outcome.

You are doing the right things: recording and comparing different setups. Then using your reaction as a guiding tool. Is the result easily enjoyable or does your brain have to work hard to understand the result?

I agree that this is exactly what we're doing here.

What can make it more difficult is that we're not together in the room, listening to exactly the same reproduction (we all have our own computer and speakers/headphones). We also can't share our impressions directly, but need to do it in writing afterwards.

What can make it easier is that the clips strip away all of the nice sounds that can often overwhelm you when sitting in front of the speakers. I find that listening to clips has an effect similar to listening from another room. And when demonstrating the Tune Method, I have often asked people to go to the next room while I play the two clips again. Usually it's very helpful in allowing people to focus on the musical fundamentals.

[springwood64]

It took me a while to track down this link https://www.lejonklou.com/wp-content/up ... Method.pdf

Given the centrality of the Tune Method to the forum, perhaps this description of the method should have more prominence. Maybe as a sticky post, like the speaker tuning?

Or perhaps it is already there but I have managed to miss it.

[Spannko]

Always the contrarian, my take on “teaching” someone to use the tune method is somewhat different! I don’t think the tune method needs to be taught so much as all the crap the hifi industry has been feeding us needs to be unlearned.

Most of us have an innate ability to recognise relative errors in pitch reproduction. This has been proven without doubt in many research trials. A great example of this is the audience’s responses to the typical X Factor contestants inability to carry a tune in a bucket. Similarly, their positive response to hearing a good singer. The audience doesn’t consist of trained professionals, they instinctively know when something sounds right, and when it doesn’t.

Audiophiles, on the other hand, have been trained to evaluate hifi by the hifi industry using musically unrelated criteria (we all know what they are!). This only serves to distract us from our primary objective: a hifi system which plays music in accordance with our innate ability to understand it.

My approach, when something doesn’t sound right, or differences are subtle, is to try and clear my mind and not think about anything at all. It’s like meditating, but with music playing in the background. I do this for as long as is necessary for my subconscious mind to be freed to become alerted to the inharmonicities emerging out of the music. When this happens, the errors are quite obvious.

[matthias]

Generally speaking when performing tune method comparison or doing A/B clips I would change only one thing at once.
When changing more than one there might be positive and negative mixed up.