Katan Stands

[Charlie1]

I know it's going back a bit for many of you but any advise on the best stand for Katans.

Kan 2 stands plus rubber feet on the speakers is very engaging but not the best sound. The speakers are too narrow to sit on all four spikes.

Katan stands with the speakers on their spikes is a better sound but doesn't draw me in so much.

THe Katan stands are very unstable compared to Kan stands. Had to really work them into the carpeted floor to reduce wobble. They are pretty good not but not 100% rock solid, especially sideways. I suppose I should try Skeets but I think the lack of enough weight will not be ideal.

[sunbeamgls]

Katan stands with hefty PMC Twenty.22 speakers on the top are pretty stable. I think the Katans just aren't heavy enough to make the spikes work.
Perhaps 2/3 filling the columns with steel shot will get them stable for you.

[Charlie1]

Thanks Sunbeam!

I did get there in the end. Now using Skeets and very happy with result.

[Bipen]

@ Charlie1
Didn't you have a pair of Kan speakers? If so, how do you think Katan on their dedicated stands compares to them ?

[Charlie1]

Hi Bipen,

Kans and Katans are totally different.

Kans (early or late models on Kan II stands) sound right with bolt down/chrome bumper Naim and pre-Cirkus LP12 and favour analogue recordings. They hold a rhythm better and have superb timing. There's no bass at low volume except on a few recordings or maybe in a tiny room with solid walls - especially the later version with KEF SP1057 drive units. I recently tried an early pair (SP1003 units) with a Klout and 2002 LP12/Adikt and they sounded thin/weedy and musically didn't really gel - I tried K20 and K400. They can sound too thin with Lejonklou amps too depending on the LP12 and Kan spec.

Kan IIs (pre-Kustone) are not quite as rhythmic but a bit more tuneful and are more refined. They have more bass than late Kans with same drive units. They handle digital recordings a little better but still more of an analogue era speaker. Wish I hadn't sold my tatty black pair. I never tried them on anything but JF Exposure and CB Naim but they are a bit more neutral and will probably match a wider range of equipment.

Katans (on their stands) sound right with a more modern LP12 and favour digital recordings. They hold a tune better. They need a lot of grunt to get fully going when driven passively. Klout / Tundra Monos are good but LK280 was the first time I felt they were 100% awake. There's enough bass at low volume for most recordings in my 4x4.5m room. They are quite a long way away from a solid rear wall in my room so worth considering the space requirement.

Don't forget Tukans (on Kan II stands). Sonically, they are more like Katans than Kans but musically they sit somewhere in the middle with more boogie than Katans and more tunefulness than Kans/Kan IIs. Like Katans, in terms of balance they slightly favour digital recordings, especially from that era. Bass levels are similar to early Kans / Kan IIs, but they probably have a little more at low volume and a little less at high volume. Good match with a Klout and 2002 LP12/Adikt. Also good with Wakonda/LK140. They sound a bit thin with Lejonklou amps, missing the LK bass bloat, but otherwise sound very good. Never quite gelled with bolt down or CB Naim and sounded a bit shut-in, although I'm told they match well with the leaner / more forward Olive Naim era. They don't need to be too far from rear wall so still quite discreet.

Warning: Kans vary a lot now and in my experience most need a service and this can kill the music if not done sensitively. Sunlight, storage in lofts/garages, bad partnering equipment, being over-driven, etc. has taken its toll on many. Kan IIs tend to be in better condition and are a safer bet but you still need to be wary or willing to flip a few pairs before finding good ones.

[Bipen]

Hi Charlie1

Thank you for your very detailed answer.

My system is from 1983 and consists of Pre-Circus LP12/Valhalla/BasikPlus/AT-VM95E, NAIT 1 and Kan 1 on Kan 1 stands. The room is 6.0 x 3.6 meters with concrete walls and parquet floors. I could of course renovate the Kans but i am reluctant to get in to that project. All that glued drivers and with unpredictable outcome.

For me, PRAT and that it doesn't sound closed in, but comes free from the speaker important. I play exclusively analog material. I interpret your answer to mean that the Tukans on Kan 1 or Kan 2 stands would work best with my system. Is this interpreted correctly?

[Charlie1]

Not really since you have CB Naim. I’d stick with Kans unless you need a slightly fuller sound in which case I’d go for 42 or 42.5 with a 110, using 322/4 mm cards and leave out any snaps or hicap. Won’t be quite as much fun as the nait though. The only Naim amps I’ve heard that are as coherent as a Nait but with more power are a bolt down 12/160 but they are super rare. A 22/120 might do the same trick but never had one and also rare.

Anapeach Loadspeaker Restoration restore Kans but there are some caveats so pm me if you plan to go ahead. If yours sound good then no need.

Approx what serial are the Kans?

If you fancy a speaker change then try pre-kustone Kan 2s but don’t sell the existing Kans until you’ve had them a while.

Feel free to post a phone clip on the Playground thread. Would be interesting to have a listen.

[Bipen]

I think my system today does not sound as good as it once did. As I have serviced both the Valhalla at Class A in 2017 and the Nait at Naim in 2019, I am now looking at the speakers. They are 41 years old today. Serial is 18888-90.

If I go for renovating the Kans I go for keeping them as original as possible. That is, checking the driver’s condition and replacing if necessary. In the crossover, check the resistors and replacing all capacitators with exactly the same type and values. I will send Anapeach a mail to see what they would charge with shipping to Sweden. Which are the caveats you write about?

I will try to post a phone clip. What song and length would you like me to post? I have mainly pop and rock from 1965-1975, later U2, Simple Minds, Police, Pretenders etc.

And, what is a “bolt down” Naim amp?

[Charlie1]

I love all those bands. No wonder you still have the system you do ;). I would say 30 secs or enough to allow the song to get going for a bit.

First time Anapeach replaced quite a lot including speaker surrounds (due to cracking), internal wiring, connectors, etc. Andrew also fitted Solen caps cos they don’t start drifting after a few years. The result was sonically much clearer but musically they were a big disappointment and I sold them on.

Second time, Andrew did a light touch service with new 50V Alcaps. Each resistor was still within spec so left alone. One tweeter unit did not measure well (which partly explained the lack of top end) and was replaced by a spare. KEF B110 (SP1003) units both measured well and their surrounds were in good health. Original speaker terminals and internal wiring also left in place. Covers re-glued.

There’s a clip on YouTube playing Dreams that might help to reassure you, or perhaps not :)

[Bipen]

Here is two phone clips of Fleetwood Mac playing Dreams from Rumours 1977 (non-remastered).
Dreams 1 is at normal listening levels, Dreams 2 is a little above that. Still wonder what the expression "bolt down" means?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nwlgpsoq ... umihu&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/kq9zj8v4 ... slrgp&dl=0

[Charlie1]

Bolt down amps were made of panels bolted together with a screwed down lid.

Can hardly hear clip 1 on my phone, but doesn’t sound like there are any major issues so hopefully just a recap is all that’s needed, if you think they are under performing. Sound pretty good to me though but hard to be sure. I’m not sure they need doing tbh. Maybe other members can comment.

Apple / Samsung clips I’ve made always sounded a lot louder even when playing low volume

[Bipen]

Yes, I also noticed the low levels when looking at them in Audacity. They were recorded with the Voice Memo app on an Iphone SE (1st gen.). How have you done your recordings, what Iphone model and app, and did you do any adjustments on the phone or app before recording?

[Efraim roots]

I'm sure the speakers could benefit from a recap, probably not night and day difference, but a little more tuneful most likely. Otherwise for me personally the route would be an easy one to chose; upgrade the LP12!? You might run into problems of upsetting preferred optimum 'balance' of sound, but source first is the truth and the only way to go for really satisfying results. With the right source upgrades you can improve your system without losing anything of the original magic, just improve on it.

[Charlie1]

Yes, I also noticed the low levels when looking at them in Audacity. They were recorded with the Voice Memo app on an Iphone SE (1st gen.). How have you done your recordings, what Iphone model and app, and did you do any adjustments on the phone or app before recording?

Most of us just record a video as normal and upload to Dropbox.

[Bipen]

@ Chalie1
Now I have adjusted the level on the clip Dreams 1 in Audacity and saved it as a FLAC file to avoid resampling. Perhaps you can take a listen to it and comment. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/qfflf7pr ... m5qg2&dl=0

@ Efraim roots
Of course you are right about the LP12 but after 40 years the speakers drivers and crossovers should have a check to see that all is in good order. After that the LP12 might get an upgrade.

[Charlie1]

It’s always hard to make any absolute conclusions this side of the digital divide but that does drag a bit.

It would have been better to just have a regular video and not a modern vinyl reissue but even accounting for that it does sound a fair way off in term of musicality.

I could be completely wrong though, or it could be the changes you made to bring the volume up.

[markiteight]

A quick note about (mis)using clips:

We have discovered that clips are a very powerful tool for evaluating changes made in a system. That is because the process of making the clips strips away most of the hi-fi-ness of a system's sound, and quite a lot of the musical performance too. However, when using clips to compare before and after a change, even the most minuscule musical difference can be easily heard, chiefly because all the hi-fi aspects have been removed and it's easier to focus on the music without being distracted.

Clips are useless for evaluating absolute performance of a system. That is because the process of making the clips strips away most of the hi-fi-ness of a system's sound, and quite a lot of the musical performance too. Be wary of any assessments or conclusions made about a systems overall performance based on clips. They are almost definitely wrong.

That's also why it's pointless to try and get the recordings to sound as good as possible with fancy recording equipment, specialized apps, lossless file conversion, etc. All that effort is actually counter productive.

Now if you, for example, posted clips comparing before and after your Kans were recapped, that would be a valid use of clips.