Playground for practical listening exercises

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by lejonklou »

tokenbrit wrote: 2022-11-17 15:23 The rhythm comment was based on a feeling of Lower having less ringing on the initial guitar, so being easier to pick the beat, but the music being less together & expressive overall as it develops... As to a "cheat": maybe a simpler(?) presentation that appears rhythmic but loses something of the music, which is retained or just comes across better in Higher.

A metronome is rhythmic; it's not musical until you build on it... Higher builds better than Lower for me. No idea if this makes sense or clicks with others :?
Thanks tokenbrit, that made perfect sense to me. The only difference is that for me, your descriptions fit better with the opposite clips. Interesting.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by lejonklou »

Arjen wrote: 2022-11-18 22:22 More promises to expect from larger premises? Success Fredrik.
Thank you Arjen! I hope so. :)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by tokenbrit »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-11-19 01:39
tokenbrit wrote: 2022-11-17 15:23 The rhythm comment was based on a feeling of Lower having less ringing on the initial guitar, so being easier to pick the beat, but the music being less together & expressive overall as it develops... As to a "cheat": maybe a simpler(?) presentation that appears rhythmic but loses something of the music, which is retained or just comes across better in Higher.

A metronome is rhythmic; it's not musical until you build on it... Higher builds better than Lower for me. No idea if this makes sense or clicks with others :?
Thanks tokenbrit, that made perfect sense to me. The only difference is that for me, your descriptions fit better with the opposite clips. Interesting.
I did choose 'lower' between 997 & 998, so it's in there somewhere :)
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Re: Never Mind The Quality, Feel The Width!

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote: 2022-11-18 22:09 Here’s an update on my DIY loudspeaker project. I ordered a bunch of components, but unfortunately there was a miscommunication with the order, so for my first passive crossover attempt I’ve had to make compromises which have resulted in a frequency response only a mother could love! The components I need will be with me soon, but in the meantime here’s where I’ve got to.

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0RG6XBubJupccw

PS. If you can somehow ignore the frequency response and stick with it to the end, hopefully you’ll get into the groove and get an idea of what I’m trying to achieve 🤞
I enjoyed that a lot!
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Re: Never Mind The Quality, Feel The Width!

Post by beck »

Spannko wrote: 2022-11-18 22:09 Here’s an update on my DIY loudspeaker project. I ordered a bunch of components, but unfortunately there was a miscommunication with the order, so for my first passive crossover attempt I’ve had to make compromises which have resulted in a frequency response only a mother could love! The components I need will be with me soon, but in the meantime here’s where I’ve got to.

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0RG6XBubJupccw

PS. If you can somehow ignore the frequency response and stick with it to the end, hopefully you’ll get into the groove and get an idea of what I’m trying to achieve 🤞
I like it…….

Your mother should be proud. :-)
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Re: Never Mind The Quality, Feel The Width!

Post by Charlie1 »

Spannko wrote: 2022-11-19 00:49 You’re right, it is a bit harsh and not a particularly easy listen. The mid-range is pushed really forward and until I get some more components, there’s nothing I can do about it. TBH, I was hoping that the musicality would make it less objectionable. Maybe I was wrong! Even so, I’ve had fun listening to it tonight, even though a couple of the crossover components have had only a few hours burn in.
The fact you're enjoying it in the room is the main thing. I was using our Mac and it can be a little forensic at times, esp with good headphones. Also had a hangover from our first works do in 3 years which was probably not helping.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Spannko »

Thanks for all your positive feedback, gentlemen! It really helps to know that I’m broadly heading in the right direction. I’m going to tweak the speaker and post another video before maybe experimenting with an isobaric bass arrangement. I’ve no idea how it’ll sound, but there’s only one way to find out!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by tpetsch »

Spannko wrote: 2022-11-19 14:49 Thanks for all your positive feedback, gentlemen! It really helps to know that I’m broadly heading in the right direction. I’m going to tweak the speaker and post another video before maybe experimenting with an isobaric bass arrangement. I’ve no idea how it’ll sound, but there’s only one way to find out!
Sounds like you're getting the main things down Spannko, tune wise, now you just need to sort out the overall frequency response. But all in all a fun winter project & looking forward to future progression clips.
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Re: Never Mind The Quality, Feel The Width!

Post by V.A.MKD »

Spannko wrote: 2022-11-18 22:09 Here’s an update on my DIY loudspeaker project. I ordered a bunch of components, but unfortunately there was a miscommunication with the order, so for my first passive crossover attempt I’ve had to make compromises which have resulted in a frequency response only a mother could love! The components I need will be with me soon, but in the meantime here’s where I’ve got to.

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0RG6XBubJupccw

PS. If you can somehow ignore the frequency response and stick with it to the end, hopefully you’ll get into the groove and get an idea of what I’m trying to achieve 🤞
Just continue, excelent direction ...
Music First ...
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Re: Never Mind The Quality, Feel The Width!

Post by matthias »

Spannko wrote: 2022-11-18 22:09 Here’s an update on my DIY loudspeaker project.
Very promising, Spannko :-D
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Charlie1 »

Unserviced Kan 1s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/bu3mh6elcwff4 ... 4.mp4?dl=0
Serviced Kan 1s: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dg62cdaqa1ht4 ... 1.mp4?dl=0

The serviced ones have new Solen caps, new Hiquphon tweeters, and new rubber surrounds for the B110s (no longer made so not identical). I've put about 150 hours on them so far and hopefully they will further improve. The surrounds were shagged when I bought the speakers so I don't know what the speakers sounded like when working properly. They are also a different Kan 1 iteration - 2nd gen with B110 (SP1003) drive units whereas my normal unserviced pair are 3rd gen with B110B (SP1057) - as also used in the Kan 2.

The restorer thinks 95% of the top end change (i.e. openness) is related to the new caps as opposed to the new tweeters which he said measure the same and are just a tiny bit more nuanced. The B110s measured fine if that's anything to go by.

Shagged surrounds below - probably from direct sunlight...

Image

Image
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2022-12-01 16:42, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by beck »

Such a nice change. I like your setup and the “new” Kans. :-)

There is something to the old ones as well. They seem very homogeneous.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by ThomasOK »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-11-18 21:33 Thank you all for your comments! Very helpful.

I agree with Charlie that we’re on the knife edge here. Listening in the room reveals more, but the clips on Dropbox sound pretty close to the originals. A little murkier perhaps, which I don’t think favours Lower.

There was 0.3 ohms between Lower and Higher. I skipped the exact numbers, because with the new measuring setting, 997 and 998 were both a little lower than exactly 997.0 and 998.0.

I have rigged a value in between Lower and Higher. Will see if I can find the time to record the final comparison, as I’m now moving my lab to larger premises.
Interesting and certainly looking forward to hearing in the middle when you have time after getting your new place together. I don't find it hard to believe that you haven't quite hit the magical peak yet. But you didn't tell us which you prefer?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by ThomasOK »

Interesting. They both sound good but I currently prefer the original Kan 1s. I think the serviced ones need some loosening up before we hear what they really sound like.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by tpetsch »

Pretty huge to me Charlie, that whole opening on that U2 track was full of drama and sucked me in -and those battling "different" power guitar chords, wow. I understood better the musical intentions of the track on the serviced Kans, definitely moving along in the right direction IMO Charlie. The unserviced sounded flat and one dimensional and that opening sounded a little long and confusing to me by comparison, but they did offer a soothing worn in balance. Looking forward to hearing these again after they've lost some of that new driver rigidity.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Matteo »

Bullet the blue sky… ah ah

The cymbals in the serviced Kans appear more convincing

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by lejonklou »

Unserviced for me, without a doubt.

Solen polypropylene caps?
Where in the crossover?
What types were the originals that they replaced?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-12-01 22:42
Unserviced for me, without a doubt.

Solen polypropylene caps?
Where in the crossover?
What types were the originals that they replaced?
Crossover is back in the speaker.

Does this help?...

Image

Apparently Solen don't drift over time, although they need much more time to run in, whereas he's found Alcaps can drift after only 4-5 years (by 10%).

Another rebuild company use Jantzen caps - do you think they are better?

What would you use?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks all for your comments which help me a lot.

I love the sound and sometimes that brings it's own rewards, but still struggling a bit in terms of musical flow - they have defo improved over the 150 hours though. Maybe 300 will be the magic number :) I do feel a bit sorry for them cos I can only find a Wet Wet Wet CD at the moment but fortunately they are playing to themselves :D
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote: 2022-12-01 23:00 Does this help?...
Image
Sure, metallized polypropylene.
What did the originals look like?
Charlie1 wrote: 2022-12-01 23:00 Apparently Solen don't drift over time, although they need much more time to run in, whereas he's found Alcaps can drift after only 4-5 years (by 10%).
That’s a good thing. The value stays the same. How they sound is of course another matter.

How old are the ones in your original pair? Apparently still doing an OK job, although they’ve likely drifted a lot.
Charlie1 wrote: 2022-12-01 23:00 What would you use?
I would listen and then decide.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-12-02 01:33 Sure, metallized polypropylene.
What did the originals look like?
Here you go...
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by lejonklou »

Those bipolar electrolytics will sound completely different, that’s for sure. And the optimal value for each electrolytic cap will likely differ from the optimal values when using metallized polypropylene caps. In other words: Some fine tuning is often necessary.

Long ago I messed around with a pair of Linn Katan. Changed the internal wiring to K400. Found that it didn’t really improve the speakers, but later realised that the thick black PVC jacket around the K400 was necessary for its performance. With the jacket still in place, K400 was quite a bit better than the original internal wiring.

The crossover in Katan had one cheap electrolytic capacitor that I was determined to replace with something better. Tried various plastic capacitors (the good ones that don’t drift and have vastly superior specifications), gave them all a good run in and tried to enjoy the improved performance.

Only it never really felt any better. The plastic caps all made the sound more clean, better resolved, more detailed. After a long period where my focus during listening had gradually shifted towards left brain analysis of sound characteristics, I one day put the original cheap electrolytics back in.

And wow, that feeling when you’re connecting with the music again! Entire records were played, my emotional response meter bottomed out and I realised how lost I’d been during the tests of the “better caps”.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-12-02 14:03 Those bipolar electrolytics will sound completely different, that’s for sure. And the optimal value for each electrolytic cap will likely differ from the optimal values when using metallized polypropylene caps. In other words: Some fine tuning is often necessary.
Sounds difficult in my position as I'm not into electronics. I could ask to compare two sets of metallized polypropylene caps (run-in), but more than that would be unpractical, so it seems potluck to find really musical ones.

If I was into the electronics side then I could have the crossovers moved externally and try all sorts of options but that's not gonna happen. Tricky.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2022-12-02 16:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Spannko »

I must admit, I’ve blindly gone along the “polypropylene caps are better” route with my diy speakers. This isn’t a particularly clever move on my behalf tbh given that I’ve found that practically all the speaker building advice on the internet has proved to be extremely unhelpful! Charlie1’s rebuild has prompted me to look at the crossovers of some of the most musical speakers of the past and it’s interesting to note that most of them contain both Solen (or equivalent) polypropylene caps and Alcaps or just Alcaps. So the Alcaps can’t be that bad. I’ve compared the Solen to about half a dozen of the usual audiophile caps and the Solens seemed to be quite a bit more musical. So the Solens might not be that bad either! Again, looking at the classic crossovers of the past, I’ve got a feeling that a combination of the two is worth experimenting with.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks Spannko.

So, were Linn using polypropylene Solens, not bipolar electrolytic Solens?

I wonder if some of the Kan crossover caps are more likely to drift than the others, due to their value or something.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2022-12-02 17:08, edited 3 times in total.
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