LP12 Building Advice

[Mr Pig]

Hi there,

After a two-year dalliance with a Rega RP10 I am returning to the LP12. I am about to assemble a new deck, collecting the final parts now. I've built LP12s before but there are some things I'd like advice on please? I've asked other places but I think this is the best place to ask.

Bolt torque:
I've never bothered with exact torques before but I'd like to get everything as exact as possible. I've looked for torque specs for the LP12 but not found any. Can someone point me to a list, if there is such a thing?

Motor thrust cap:
I have a used motor and to get it up and running a Majik PSU. The motor does not have a thrust cap. I have a tall plastic cap with spring and ball-bearing I could use but I know the thinking on the thrust cap has changed over the years. What is the current thinking on the thrust caps and what should be used with which PSU?

P-Clip:
I have two of the new cylindrical tone-arm clamps which replace the old white P-Clip but I don't have the new black P-Clip which is used with them. I am struggling to find them for sale. Can anyone tell me the size of the new P-Clip?

Rega Arm Cable Dressing:
Current plan is to fit a Rega RB2000 arm. I've used Rega arms on LP12s before and thought it worked fine. I used a cable tie at the base of the arm to loop the arm cable towards the P-Clip. Does anyone have better advice on dressing the arm cable on an arm with a vertical arm cable?

Lingo 4:
I have a Majik PSU I'll use just now but I am thinking about a Lingo 4. I know the simple answer is that it's better but in what way does the Lingo4 change the sound? The speed stability of the RP10 is fantastic, much better than any LP12 I've had, but the LP12 swings in a way the Rega does not. I want to try and tighten up the LP12 without losing the bounce and soul the older decks had. I don't even know if that's possible?

The deck is a 2018 mechanic kit with Cirkus bearing. I've ordered a Stack Audio alloy sub-platter and I'll be using a Linn arm-board.

Long post! Thank you in advance for any advice you can offer :0)

[Spannko]

What’s the rationale for getting the Stack Audio sub-chassis, Mr Pig?

[Mr Pig]

What’s the rationale for getting the Stack Audio sub-chassis, Mr Pig?

I had LP12s for over thirty years and I want to try and move the performance up a bit from what I had before. In Hi-Fi terms, the RP10 is a fechin impressive turntable. If I built the deck with a standard Cirkus sub-chassis it would be very similar to a deck I had before. I decided to radically change one thing to see what the effect was.

The Stack Audio TENOR looks like the cheapest machined alloy sub-chassis available, it only cost about £50 more than a used Cirkus one sells for, so it's not a big commitment. It is a bit of a punt as there is practically nothing about it on the net, I understand it's quite new, but I'm prepared to risk it as it's so cheap.

I'm not confident about it as I wasn't a fan of the direction Linn went in with the Cirkus and Lingo, I preferred the older bearing, but sub-chassis like this did not exist back then so maybe it's time to reassess things? I'm anticipating changing a few things until I get the deck sounding the way I want. This is just the beginning. That's why I want the torque settings, so I know the deck is set up as well as it can be and I'm not blaming the sound on components when it might be set-up issues.

[Mikeg]

Hi

If you do a search for 'torque' with the author as 'ThomasOK' you should find most the of the torque settings you need.

For the P-Clip try Stoneaudio

[Mr Pig]

If you do a search for 'torque' with the author as 'ThomasOK' you should find most the of the torque settings you need.

Thank you, will do. I've ordered a few P-Clips around the size I think it is, only costs a few pounds. And some new lock-nuts too.

Cheers.

[Tendaberry]

If you want to improve upon what you had before, how about the Karousel bearing?

[V.A.MKD]

Here are several world class (if not the best in the world) LP12 experts (I'm not) who can help you with advice to go in the right direction of improving your LP12 ...

[Mr Pig]

If you want to improve upon what you had before, how about the Karousel bearing?

Possibly but I've heard conflicting reports about it. Once the initial euphoria over the cleaner more detailed sound wears off it is less musically satisfying. I'm not ruling it out but I want to take it slow. Run with the cirkus for a while then think about what direction to go in next.

[Tony Tune-age]

If you want to improve upon what you had before, how about the Karousel bearing?

Possibly but I've heard conflicting reports about it. Once the initial euphoria over the cleaner more detailed sound wears off it is less musically satisfying. I'm not ruling it out but I want to take it slow. Run with the cirkus for a while then think about what direction to go in next.

I've heard conflicting opinions about the Karousel as well. However in my deck, I noticed the karousel bearing system sounded better immediately, and it continued to improve during the burning-in period too. So in my experience, there has been no down side at all.

But in any case, just go with what you like the best. Especially since you're the person that will be listening and paying for any changes that are made.

Enjoy the journey...

[Mr Pig]

But in any case, just go with what you like the best. Especially since you're the person that will be listening and paying for any changes that are made.

It comes down to cost as well. It may not be a cheap deck but at least you know that you can change things and make it sound more to your taste.

Most turntables, either you like it or you don't and other than changing cartridges there is little you can do. I found that it didn't matter what cartridge put on the RP10, I just couldn't warm to the sound.

[sktn77a]

I have a used motor and to get it up and running a Majik PSU. The motor does not have a thrust cap. I have a tall plastic cap with spring and ball-bearing I could use but I know the thinking on the thrust cap has changed over the years. What is the current thinking on the thrust caps and what should be used with which PSU?

As you are probably aware, the long thrust cap with the spring and ball bearing was deleted when the Lingo was first introduced. I think this was to reduce drag with the high voltage > low voltage transition once the platter was up to speed. The early procedure was just to pull of the thrust cap but newer motors all had a small fixed thrust cap. You should be fine with or without the thrust cap for the Majik PSU but I would probably remove it if you get the Lingo 4.

Take a look at the LP12 setup guide on the Cymbiosis web site - that should answer most of your questions.

[Mr Pig]

You should be fine with or without the thrust cap for the Majik PSU but I would probably remove it if you get the Lingo 4.

Thank you,

Does the pulley/spindle not float up and down without some sort of cap in pace? I assumed that was the whole point of the cap.

[sktn77a]

Does the pulley/spindle not float up and down without some sort of cap in pace? I assumed that was the whole point of the cap.

Good question. Not knowing the internal build of the motor, I can't say. But this was Linn's standard procedure after the Lingo was introduced.

[Mr Pig]

Not knowing the internal build of the motor, I can't say. But this was Linn's standard procedure after the Lingo was introduced.

If you hold the motor in your hand you can pull the spindle up and down maybe two millimetres? Maybe less but it can move up and down. I get that Linn fitted caps etc to hold the spindle still and stop it floating up and down as any movement would surely effect speed stability.

What I don't understand is how this became unnecessary. Either it was never necessary, and they never actually checked it, or they were wrong in removing the cap.

[ThomasOK]

Without the cap the pulley/spindle/magnets rest on the lower bearing surface, with it in place they rest press against the upper surface. Which is better? There appeared to be too much friction pressing against the upper surface for the Lingo 1, 2, 3 to run properly, likely because the Lingo is designed to run at a significantly lower voltage than the Valhalla. Later Linn went to a shallow, glued on cap that is on all Majik motors and later Lingo motors. Replacement motors all come with it.

You should be fine using the cap and bearing with a Valhalla or Majik power supply (or original basic PS or Hercules II). However, I would just try it both ways and see which sounds better. With a Lingo 1, 2, 3 I would remove the cap. The Lingo 4 comes with a unique AC motor that runs off 12 Volts so you don't have to worry about it.

[Mr Pig]

You should be fine using the cap and bearing with a Valhalla or Majik power supply. However, I would just try it both ways and see which sounds better.

Surely less friction is just plain better?

[ThomasOK]

You should be fine using the cap and bearing with a Valhalla or Majik power supply. However, I would just try it both ways and see which sounds better.

Surely less friction is just plain better?

Not necessarily so. In turntable bearings and the bearings of motors that drive them consistent friction is more important than the lowest possible friction.

[Mr Pig]

..consistent friction is more important than the lowest possible friction.

That makes sense. Rega use grease, or relatively thick oil, for this reason. The drag is designed into the system.

[snatex]

Hi there,

After a two-year dalliance with a Rega RP10 I am returning to the LP12. I am about to assemble a new deck, collecting the final parts now. I've built LP12s before but there are some things I'd like advice on please? I've asked other places but I think this is the best place to ask.

How was your experience with the RP10? What are your opinions on how it compares to the LP12?

[Mr Pig]

How was your experience with the RP10? What are your opinions on how it compares to the LP12?

Short answer, it doesn't.

The RP10 is great Hi-Fi. Very clean, quiet, detailed etc but it is a soulless device. It does not move you the way a well sorted LP12 does. To be specific, the LP12 has a realistic tonality, which gives you the feeling that you are hearing real people and instruments, and it conveys subtle timing information better. The LP12 is a fundamentally better record player. The RP10 is cold.

I think the biggest flaw in LP12 use is the arms. Linn have done everything they can to encourage the use of Linn arms on the LP12 and they are either far too expensive or off the pace relative to Rega ones. So Rega turntables appear to be much better than they are because the arms are so good. And many LP12s are half-cocked because they're running old sub-par Linn arms. Put a decent Rega arm on an LP12 and there is nothing about an RP10 you are going to miss. But people are dumping proper money into the chassis of decks wearing Basiks or Akitos. Even an Ittok or Ekos is not a patch on an RB2000 or 3000 while costing similar money. It's crazy.

Rega nailed the budget to lower hi-end tonearm deal years ago. Accept that and life gets easy. That and set the damn deck up correctly. Yes, it really is that important.

[Discodave]

Interesting point and I enjoy your assessment of the RP10 Vs LP12. Indeed I flirted with an RP8/10 on release to replace my modest linn. But having asked folk more knowledgable than myself who's opinion I trust (T'OK and my dealer) I stayed away.

However, your own rationale seems to place great weight on the tonearm. Which in my own experience is quite far down the TT hierarchy. I am not saying you are wrong, but I am intrigued to your own experiences in this regard.

Ta

[Discodave]

If you check my signature, you will see I am one of those that you refer to :)

[Mr Pig]

However, your own rationale seems to place great weight on the tonearm. Which in my own experience is quite far down the TT hierarchy.

Yes, I agree but it's still very important and does things that can't be fixed in other ways. Take speed stability for example. If a deck has poor speed stability, for whatever reason, other upgrades cannot fix it. The issue has to be addressed directly. Similarly a poor arm will limit the performance of any cartridge put on it.

I think people overestimate the quality of Linn tonearms. The deck itself elevates the performance of them but it's worth pointing out that for the past forty years no one has had any interest in using Linn tonearms other than LP12 users. By contrast Rega have dominated the tonearm market and their arms are used on loads of different decks. I would have said that they dominate the budget tonearm market but that wouldn't be fair. What that have actually done is redefine the tonearm market by selling arms which trade punches with hi-end arms at budget prices.

Yet people will stick with an Ittok, which was the best arm Linn could make forty years ago, when for not much more they could have an RB3000, which is the best arm Rega can make today. I'm not saying the Ittok or Ekos is a bad arm, far from it, but the RB3000 is better. But people just do not want to put a Rega arm on their LP12. And they should.

[snatex]

I'm not saying the Ittok or Ekos is a bad arm, far from it, but the RB3000 is better. But people just do not want to put a Rega arm on their LP12. And they should.

Spicy take. I'd like to hear some more opinions on this subject. How well do the Rega arms integrate with the Kore and Keel

[Mr Pig]

Spicy take. I'd like to hear some more opinions on this subject. How well do the Rega arms integrate with the Kore and Keel

Linn really don't want you to put a non-Linn arm on your LP12. Especially not a Rega.