Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

[sunbeamgls]

Thanks teatime and TOK, I've updated the comparison description to hopefully make the second comparison a little more clear:

Comparison between the Akurate Exakt DSM, Akurate Katalyst DACs (not working as Exakt, but in pass through full range mode) and KDSM/3 working as a standard analogue output source with the Organik DAC. This was achieved by switching the analogue output cables from each of the units at the back of the power amp, hence minimising changes (although the KDSM/3 location necessitated a longer interconnect, but both were Linn silver). Both were powered from the PS Audio using Puritan mains cables. All the listening was to stereo music.

[PetterS]

Sunbeamgls, indeed a very good read, thank you. I also aprreciated your comparison between HIFI-investments and Car-buys. In fact many people I know invest more money adding sound system extras, when picking up there new car at the dealer every two or three years, than they put into their home stereo.

You pointed out something which have been at the back of my head, when listening to and reading about digital LINN the last decade.

If you look at that page you'll see that Linn claims Exakt transfers digital data to the DAC and on to the speakers flawlessly. So why would anyone purchase a Klimax System Hub at £15k when "exaktly" the same digital information can be delivered by a new Akurate System Hub at £2700 or even a used Majik DSM at £1500? A very valid question.

Thank you also for providing the Link to Exakt. The following statement raises questions:

The lower the frequency, the more it’s delayed as it passes through the crossover. This means the different frequencies that make up each note are no longer synchronised. When the music is recombined, it’s a flawed version of the original and the instruments are distorted. Exakt delays the higher frequencies so they line up with the lower frequencies. When the music is recombined at your ear, the fundamental of each note and all the harmonics arrive perfectly in time, preserving the true character of each instrument.

Hearing acoustical instruments perform live incorporates the same effect. Higher frequencies travels faster. In fact, a good symphony orchestra compensates this effect to a certain degree by having the double basses being slightly "pushy" in there playing. The same in a jazz quartet, with the bass being pushy and the solo saxophone/trumpet/vocalist being slightly "laid back". So is that part of the problem I did experience with the Ellington example earlier in the thread? Clearly something was moved time-wise in the stream compared to the vinyl. But if the problem is in the stream, it won't be solved by digital delays like Exakt either, or?And do I even want to be hit at the same time by both bass and treble instruments? Does that "wall effect" sound natural in acoustic music?

It's a great relief that someone like Lejonklou, with great passion continues to develop equipment based on what you hear when so many strange anamolies continues to hunt digital systems, even being exact and bit-perfect,

[matthias]

The synchronisation between high and low frequencies which Linn claim to achieve with a digital crossover (Exakt technology) is IMO much better solved by Klangedang with the "series crossover" for their speakers.
The info about can be found on their HP.

Matt

[donuk]

Hearing acoustical instruments perform live incorporates the same effect. Higher frequencies travels faster. In fact, a good symphony orchestra compensates this effect to a certain degree by having the double basses being slightly "pushy" in there playing. The same in a jazz quartet, with the bass being pushy and the solo saxophone/trumpet/vocalist being slightly "laid back". So is that part of the problem I did experience with the Ellington example earlier in the thread? Clearly something was moved time-wise in the stream compared to the vinyl. But if the problem is in the stream, it won't be solved by digital delays like Exakt either, or?And do I even want to be hit at the same time by both bass and treble instruments? Does that "wall effect" sound natural in acoustic music?

Could you provide a reference for this information please?

Donuk

[sunbeamgls]

Hearing acoustical instruments perform live incorporates the same effect. Higher frequencies travels faster. In fact, a good symphony orchestra compensates this effect to a certain degree by having the double basses being slightly "pushy" in there playing. The same in a jazz quartet, with the bass being pushy and the solo saxophone/trumpet/vocalist being slightly "laid back". So is that part of the problem I did experience with the Ellington example earlier in the thread? Clearly something was moved time-wise in the stream compared to the vinyl. But if the problem is in the stream, it won't be solved by digital delays like Exakt either, or?And do I even want to be hit at the same time by both bass and treble instruments? Does that "wall effect" sound natural in acoustic music?

According to Encyclopedia Britannica, the speed of sound does not change with frequency: "In addition, both equations (9) and (10) are independent of frequency, indicating that the speed of sound is in fact the same at all frequencies—that is, there is no dispersion of a sound wave as it propagates through air."
From here: https://www.britannica.com/science/sound-physics

Exakt doesn't make any attempt to correct any time aberrations in the data, only in the playback chain.

I'm a little confused by the quote you post from Linn about Exakt and the delays of lower frequencies passing through crossovers. I'm not sure what they're trying to say in that quote:

"The lower the frequency, the more it’s delayed as it passes through the crossover. This means the different frequencies that make up each note are no longer synchronised. When the music is recombined, it’s a flawed version of the original and the instruments are distorted. Exakt delays the higher frequencies so they line up with the lower frequencies. When the music is recombined at your ear, the fundamental of each note and all the harmonics arrive perfectly in time, preserving the true character of each instrument."

It starts by saying that lower frequencies are delayed for longer through a crossover so Exakt delays the higher frequencies to compensate. But that's weird because a system with Exakt no longer has passive crossovers to introduce such a delay. Or are they saying that lower frequencies take longer to pass through the Exakt digital crossover, which would also be a bit odd from a technical perspective and because they would be claiming a benefit for Exakt that addresses a problem introduced by Exakt! I will see if I can do some digging on this one.

[teatime]

Higher frequencies travels faster.

Wikipedia suggests you are sort of technically correct, but seem to be exaggerating the effect:

The dependence on frequency and pressure are normally insignificant in practical applications. In dry air, the speed of sound increases by about 0.1 m/s as the frequency rises from 10 Hz to 100 Hz. For audible frequencies above 100 Hz it is relatively constant.

... meaning only the very lowest bass travels slightly slower. It's hard to see how it can have any significant impact at normal room distances, and surely room reflections will dominate anyway? And apparently higher frequencies do not exhibit this behavior.

So is that part of the problem I did experience with the Ellington example earlier in the thread? Clearly something was moved time-wise in the stream compared to the vinyl. But if the problem is in the stream, it won't be solved by digital delays like Exakt either, or?

The problem, as I understand it, comes from limitations of speaker design. If a single speaker element could faithfully reproduce the pluck of bass string, all the harmonics would leave the speaker at the same time. Because a single element is generally not seen to be enough, most speaker designs use two or more elements to better cover the full range. This separation of the single sound (the bass string) into multiple elements via a speaker crossover creates this timing issue where the bass components of the sound are delayed in relation to the higher harmonics.

Different speaker designs have this problem(*) to a different degree. Some try to combat it by physically shifting the elements (see for example PMC's designs that "lean backwards"), but from what I've read the problem is fundamentally unavoidable in an analog design.

(*) Is it a problem at all? Some claim the differences in time are too small to "be audible". I've also seen it suggested that we're so used to this slight smearing of the frequency band in time that speakers that don't exhibit it "sound flat and lifeless".

And do I even want to be hit at the same time by both bass and treble instruments? Does that "wall effect" sound natural in acoustic music?

Yes, you want that. It's how the sound of the real instrument would hit you in real life.

[u252agz]

My ramblings after listen to KDSM/3

http://audiophilemusings.blogspot.com/2 ... n.html?m=1

Thanks sunbeamgls

A great in depth write up of KDSM organic as a streamer only and also as a streamer/DAC.

How much better do you think the latter was in your system?

Would you consider using the new KDSM /3 in your system as a £15,000 Hub?

[sunbeamgls]

Different speaker designs have this problem(*) to a different degree. Some try to combat it by physically shifting the elements (see for example PMC's designs that "lean backwards"), but from what I've read the problem is fundamentally unavoidable in an analog design.

This is not why speaker designers use stepped or sloped baffles. They do this to try and align the distance of the driver from the listener. Its an attempt to align time as a physical aspect of the design, its not related to the speed of sound.

[sunbeamgls]

My ramblings after listen to KDSM/3

http://audiophilemusings.blogspot.com/2 ... n.html?m=1

Thanks sunbeamgls

A great in depth write up of KDSM organic as a streamer only and also as a streamer/DAC.

How much better do you think the latter was in your system?

Would you consider using the new KDSM /3 in your system as a £15,000 Hub?

If there wasn't the prospect of Organik and Exakt together in the future, I'd probably go back to passive to have the capability of Organik in KDSM/3 - its that good.

The Klimax System Hub/1 (like a KDSM/3 when used only as a hub) would be a fundamental upgrade to my system. VFM is a personal perspective and £15k is too much for me right now, plus, for that kind of money I'd actually like to have something I'd want to look at in my room - maybe in 3 years time a used one at half the price would mean the looks are more tolerable :)
My preference would be for KSH/1 electronics inside a KSH/0 case, although that might reduce some of the benefits as it won't be likely to have the physical suspension system for the boards.

[teatime]

Different speaker designs have this problem(*) to a different degree. Some try to combat it by physically shifting the elements (see for example PMC's designs that "lean backwards"), but from what I've read the problem is fundamentally unavoidable in an analog design.

This is not why speaker designers use stepped or sloped baffles. They do this to try and align the distance of the driver from the listener. Its an attempt to align time as a physical aspect of the design, its not related to the speed of sound.

This time I think it's your turn to go back and read again. :) I'm not talking about the speed of sound in that section, but about delays that happen in the crossover of multi-element speaker designs. I believe we are in total agreement.

[Spannko]

My preference would be for KSH/1 electronics inside a KSH/0 case, although that might reduce some of the benefits as it won't be likely to have the physical suspension system for the boards.

That’s the first I’ve heard of the latest KSH’s having a suspension system. Do you mean something like naims approach, with tuned weights and springs?

[Pedro]

No, only pads. - In the facebook interview Murray (chief designer) explains correspondingly, that they measured the vibrations on the circuit boards. In order to reduce these microphonic effects they placed a series of damping pads in strategic points between the circuitboards and the metalwork.
And this basicly removed the resonant peaks…

[Spannko]

Thanks Pedro 👍🙂

[u252agz]

My ramblings after listen to KDSM/3

http://audiophilemusings.blogspot.com/2 ... n.html?m=1

Thanks sunbeamgls

A great in depth write up of KDSM organic as a streamer only and also as a streamer/DAC.

How much better do you think the latter was in your system?

Would you consider using the new KDSM /3 in your system as a £15,000 Hub?

If there wasn't the prospect of Organik and Exakt together in the future, I'd probably go back to passive to have the capability of Organik in KDSM/3 - its that good.

The Klimax System Hub/1 (like a KDSM/3 when used only as a hub) would be a fundamental upgrade to my system. VFM is a personal perspective and £15k is too much for me right now, plus, for that kind of money I'd actually like to have something I'd want to look at in my room - maybe in 3 years time a used one at half the price would mean the looks are more tolerable :)
My preference would be for KSH/1 electronics inside a KSH/0 case, although that might reduce some of the benefits as it won't be likely to have the physical suspension system for the boards.

Thanks

It seems like the streamer component of the KDSM/3 Organik is as much of an upgrade as the Organik DAC itself , even though Linn focus entirely on the latter in their marketing hype.


I am looking forward to comparisons of the new Linn KDSM/3 organic with Kalla, as Fredrik and his team must have really optimized the streaming side of things and how the data is delivered to the ( non organik DAC).

[Ianw]

Showing my lack of knowledge, but always keen to learn.

1. What Organik upgrade components reside in the Orgnik hub and what components reside in the Organik board? I.e the physical distribution of both items.

2. Does the “clock” reside in the hub?

Ian

[Pedro]

1 NG Klimax_System_Hub.png

1. The NG Klimax Hub contains 3 circuitboards: ADC board (Top left), “Streaming” board (Bottom left) and HDMI-Board (Bottom right).

2. No, the new clock is not in the Hub.

The NG Klimax DSM additionally contains the Organik DAC board (Top right) with the new extremely accurate clock.

2 NG Klimax_DSM_AV.png

[matthias]

1 NG Klimax_System_Hub.png1. The NG Klimax Hub contains 3 circuitboards: ADC board (Top left), “Streaming” board (Bottom left) and HDMI-Board (Bottom right).

So de facto Linn sell the Organik DAC board (without case) for 15k GBP.
Wow !!!

Matt

[Pedro]

If you add a new Klimax Exaktbox (Organik) to the Hub, you have to pay another 15k GBP, makes a total of 30k GBP, thats the price for the NG KDSM.
With 2 Exaktboxes you get a total of 45k GBP!!!

Peter

[matthias]

If you add a new Klimax Exaktbox (Organik) to the Hub, you have to pay another 15k GBP,

At least you have then six channels and a nice case.
You pay a premium if you do not want to go the Exakt route.

Matt

[TMV]

No, the new clock is not in the Hub.

Are you sure? I think the clock is on the streaming board supplying the clock to internal ADC/DAC or external Exakt devices.

[anthony]

No, the new clock is not in the Hub.

Are you sure? I think the clock is on the streaming board supplying the clock to internal ADC/DAC or external Exakt devices.

Yes I thought the same.

[Pedro]

Look at the youtube video „Linn Organik DAC“ of 26 march, the day of the launch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi17-W-88m0

Peter

[Defender]

mmh for that money (for the DAC board) you can probably buy a Källa + Sagatun Stereo + Tundra Stereo and you would have some left over cash which you can use towards some loudspeakers.

[matthias]

Look at the youtube video „Linn Organik DAC“ of 26 march, the day of the launch.

OK, when the clock is in the DAC and Linn claim there is only one clock in the Exakt system. then in the worst case the clock signal from the Exakt box has to travel a long distance from the Exakt box to Urika2.
So what about jitter?

Matt

[Defender]

Matt I think that was already the case in the generation before and I could never understand that because of the reason you mention.