Playground for practical listening exercices

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1260
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-09-10 08:50

...and here is the AT VM95E making some music:

https://youtu.be/9EX92cC-nVE
............in our thoughts.............

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2840
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-09-10 09:21

Many thanks Ron for your in-depth posts. I'm very grateful you responded. You've given me the motivation to continue the AT journey further.

The cartridge is better with the anti-skate setting you recommended so thank you for that too. I tried a few other settings and 1.0 / 1.1 are the best right now. I have not kept any track of the hours used so far but probably not 27 yet, so I will come back to it.

I will get the new 95E and try that. I may even get the new body. Problem is I don't touch the LP12 so it requires a dealer visit to replace the cartridge body. I would quite like the arm checked anyway cos it required so much force to get the K9 stylus' off. Maybe it's the 1st gen K9 body but blimey incredibly tight. I looked at my daughters old Planner and the Carbon comes off easy peasy.

This is also why I can't do clips of the inner groove distortion but if I hear it again then I will record it for you. I don't know what to say about you never hearing it. I occassionally hear it on my main deck too - depends on the quality of the LP and how close the last track is to the centre.

I know the deck could be upgraded with all sorts but I prefer to keep it late 80s spec. I still have the Radikal/Urika/Krystal deck in the house. So I have freed up some funds but the main motivation was to buy a second LP12-based system in the office where I spent so much time working during the week.

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2840
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-09-10 10:49

OK, I've taken some 'brave' pills and done a couple of clips. Thought I'd broken the pin under the K9 body at one point but it all seems ok. I love what LP12s do but I HATE doing anything to them. Also found a slightly better/safer way of removing it.

This is the low wear K9 so not sure you really hear proper distortion at the end of the track the way I did on the previous K9 stylus. It's more of a compression to the sound and a screechiness - a bit like Kan 1s can sometimes sound.

Also used the stylus gauge as I'm not sure the tracking force dial is working 100% on the Ittok.
K9: https://www.dropbox.com/s/gyuop7bfg9hn7 ... 2.MOV?dl=0
ML: https://www.dropbox.com/s/o6p8za2r0wbci ... 0.MOV?dl=0

Sorry about the music choice but it's in a good cause and quite an apt title.

They are much closer to my ears now and I'm properly enjoying music with the ML for the first time - it seems to have cleared some threshold for enjoyment. The K9 still makes a bit more sense of it all but this is still great fun. VM95E on order.

Ron The Mon
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit

AT Unleashed

Post by Ron The Mon » 2019-09-10 15:42

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-09-10 10:49
They are much closer to my ears now and I'm properly enjoying music with the ML for the first time - it seems to have cleared some threshold for enjoyment. The K9 still makes a bit more sense of it all but this is still great fun.
Charlie1,
I agree.
I know the deck could be upgraded with all sorts but I prefer to keep it late 80s spec.
The Ekos1 came out in 1988. That with a K9/AT-VM95 is a much better value than an Ittok with any other cartridge.

Does your dealer use a torque screwdriver?

Ron The Mon

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2840
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: AT Unleashed

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-09-10 15:52

Ron The Mon wrote:
2019-09-10 15:42
The Ekos1 came out in 1988. That with a K9/AT-VM95 is a much better value than an Ittok with any other cartridge.
It's actually an LVIII mk 1 so older than some Ekos arms. I just love the look of the LP12 with Ittok - sometimes it's not just about the music for me. The funny thing is back in late 80s when I bought my first deck I didn't like it and wanted an Ekos. But anything 'black' looked better back then.

Ron The Mon
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit

Ittok LVIII!!

Post by Ron The Mon » 2019-09-10 16:40

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-09-10 15:52
Ron The Mon wrote:
2019-09-10 15:42
The Ekos1 came out in 1988. That with a K9/AT-VM95 is a much better value than an Ittok with any other cartridge.
It's actually an LVIII mk 1 so older than some Ekos arms. I just love the look of the LP12 with Ittok - sometimes it's not just about the music for me. The funny thing is back in late 80s when I bought my first deck I didn't like it and wanted an Ekos. But anything 'black' looked better back then.
Charlie1,
I am under the impression that the made in Scotland Ittoks sound better than early Ekos, so nevermind.

Ron The Mon

ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2481
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-09-10 17:42

tokenbrit wrote:
2019-09-07 22:53
Didn't work hard at all - they come easy... Yep, they Don't Stop ;)
That's funny, I thought It Don't Come Easy :-)
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2840
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-09-11 18:43

VM95E: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5oh57zis3w470 ... 6.MOV?dl=0

Personally, I think the break up of the vocals at the end of the clip is more noticeable on the 95E.

New track if that helps compare the two AT carts:
VMN95ML: https://www.dropbox.com/s/p4yc00ytzj26m ... 4.MOV?dl=0
VM95E: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0945scqhunm7r ... 5.MOV?dl=0

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1260
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-09-11 18:55

The 95E has a fuller and more Linn like sound. The music comes alive. The 95ML sounds more clinical compared to the 95E.

Maybe I should try “downgrading” to the AT33EV next time. :-)
............in our thoughts.............

User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4376
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2019-09-11 19:06

E rules!

Regarding the distortion, it sounds like a really worn record to me. Does it break up only on the last track?

It's interesting how some tip shapes seem to cope much better with records that break up like this. I wish that ability would be strongly correlated with how musical the overall reproduction is, but sadly that doesn't seem to be the case.

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1260
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-09-11 20:44

You have the best of both worlds Charlie1. You can just change the tip when needed! :-)
............in our thoughts.............

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2840
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-09-11 21:28

Changing stylus is still not a pleasant task so not something I'll be doing except for comparison.

As for wear, the record is fine except the second half of that last song.

Agree the E is quite a bit easier to follow than the ML. Probably easier than the K9 as well.

EDIT: Had a bit more time to listen properly. I do really like the E so thanks again Ron! - if/when you read this. It's a bit lightweight sounding and so I may need to sacrifice some sense of flow for a bit more body at 1.7g but I can sort that to suit myself over time. Thanks again for bringing this to the forum.

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1260
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-09-11 23:27

So, it seems that to get the most music out of the groove one should choose a cart with an elliptical tip and in the more expensive end a cart with contact line.
............in our thoughts.............

User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4376
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2019-09-12 02:04

beck wrote:
2019-09-11 23:27
So, it seems that to get the most music out of the groove one should choose a cart with an elliptical tip and in the more expensive end a cart with contact line.
I'm not entirely sure that's the case. It seems to me that the various tip shapes "tip" the sound in one way or another. But so does the cantilever material and geometry. And the suspension, the coils and the magnet assembly as well. And the housing, the fasteners, etc, etc.

I remember comparing a big range of Ortofon cartridges many years ago, where each more expensive model had one or two parts changed to a more fancy material. As is often the case with our hobby, the more expensive models were unbalanced in various directions, while the basic model was simple and straightforward in its presentation and most musical.

This test resulted not only in several reviews for a HiFi magazine, but it also inspired a deep longing to design from scratch a cartridge myself, where I could try combining the merits of each design that I'd listened to and hopefully end up with something really good.

I ended up contacting a cartridge manufacturer, who briskly convinced me that such a thorough endeavor would cost me a fortune. At best one could start with a given design and tweak it a little, for instance by choice of tip geometry or cantilever material. And that would still cost more than I'd ever imagined. Needless (sic!) to say, my dreams of creating a phono cartridge from scratch went up in a cloud of vinyl dust.

Speaking of tip geometries, what does the Vital shape look like? As you probably know, it's been used on a number of really good cartridges. I wish that when manufacturers mention their choice of tip shapes, there would be an accompanying photo and exact dimensions, so that the actual differences could be more easily understood.

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1260
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-09-12 06:25

Very interesting read Lejonklou.

Yes, I forgot the vital.

So, we are back to what we do here. Listen and compare. :-)
............in our thoughts.............

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1260
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-09-12 09:13

So, why do Audio Technica recommend a tracking force from 1.8 to 2.2 g for the AT VM95E when we here are talking about 1.5 to 1.7g on the tip?
............in our thoughts.............

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2840
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-09-12 10:49

Not too ropey for 27 quid - think it's really only worth 22 myself though ;)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/21w7jm3nprmcv ... 7.MOV?dl=0

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1260
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-09-12 11:48

Music does not have to come with big expense. That goes for room treatment too! :-)
............in our thoughts.............

tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 899
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-09-12 13:59

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-09-12 10:49
Not too ropey for 27 quid - think it's really only worth 22 myself though ;)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/21w7jm3nprmcv ... 7.MOV?dl=0
Thanks, Charlie1 - now I have the final chords of Never Going Back... stuck in my head, Again :p
Do we need to crowdfund the extra £5 for you in gratitude for all your entertaining posts to this thread? ;)
This thread now has me looking for my old, lightly used AT95E, and researching the difference(s) against the AT-VM95E - found this... Plenty of tip options, and images of tip shape on each product's page :)

ThomasOK wrote:
2019-09-10 17:42
That's funny, I thought It Don't Come Easy :-)
You're the Star(r); not me ;) Comparing versions, I prefer George's demo version, to Ringo's :/

Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 719
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: East of The Black Country, UK

Re: AT Unleashed

Post by Spannko » 2019-09-12 15:16

Ron The Mon wrote:
2019-09-10 15:42
Charlie1 wrote:
2019-09-10 10:49
They are much closer to my ears now and I'm properly enjoying music with the ML for the first time - it seems to have cleared some threshold for enjoyment. The K9 still makes a bit more sense of it all but this is still great fun.
Charlie1,
I agree.

Ron The Mon
I totally agree with you both. The AT has a nicer sound, but the K9 just pips the AT to the post in the musicality stakes. It’s only a tiny bit ahead, but just enough to make Baz sound a bit flat on some of his notes.

Re: the 95E, it reminds me of the old Basik cartridge - more rhythmic than its peers, but only just manages to knock out a tune. It’s got an impressive HiFi sound too, whilst at the same time making Ella sound very ordinary (unlike the K9 or even the ML). I realise that it’s very cheap, so one can’t be too critical, but for me, it’s not good enough for a high quality record playing system. Ideally, something better than the K9 is needed. Adikt?
Last edited by Spannko on 2019-09-12 15:47, edited 1 time in total.

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1260
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

STOP CHANGING THE HEADLINE! ☠️☠️☠️☠️

Post by beck » 2019-09-12 15:32

I get confused and I am actually proud of the original one even though it is long! :-)
............in our thoughts.............

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2840
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: AT Unleashed

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-09-12 15:54

Spannko wrote:
2019-09-12 15:16
Re: the 95E, it reminds me of the old Basik cartridge - more rhythmic than its peers, but only just manages to knock out a tune. It’s got an impressive HiFi sound too, whilst at the same time making Ella sound very ordinary (unlike the K9 or even the ML). I realise that it’s very cheap, so one can’t be too critical, but for me, it’s not good enough for a high quality record playing system. Ideally, something better than the K9 is needed. Adikt?
I might know what you mean. Compared to the K9, it seems a bit lightweight at times and a bit plinky plonky, like an upright bar room piano in a 1950s western. Perhaps no surprise the K9 offers a very balanced presentation when partnered with Valhalla/Ittok.

If I'm being pickey, some tracks also lack the drive of the K9 but perhaps that's just cos the bass doesn't have as much punch, although the 95E is better in some other ways.

I succumbed and ordered the naked version just to see if it has a bit more oomph - I'm sure Ron tried that one too but nothing like hearing for yourself.

EDIT: Beck, just noticed the title change again - must be cos we're replying to a post where the title was changed. It wasn't me wot done it guv!!! :)

Ron The Mon
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit

AT-VM95E WITH HEADLINE? ☠️☠️☠️☠️

Post by Ron The Mon » 2019-09-12 18:36

beck wrote:
2019-09-12 15:32
STOP CHANGING THE HEADLINE!!
I get confused and I am actually proud of the original one even though it is long! :-)
beck,
I change subject titles for three reasons;

First is just to have fun for myself. It is entertaining to me to apply a pun or two or three. Sometimes it's just an inside joke only I understand. Occasionally because this is an international Forum, I use words that need to get looked-up causing others to learn. If someone else has fun or learns, great!


Second is to differentiate threads where multiple posts are comparing an amp and a cartridge on the same day.


Third is driving traffic to the Lejonklou Forum. Using more key words in subject titles and posts allows a better chance of attracting more readers and contributors. I have learned quite a bit and enjoyed many posts and photos here in the past year from members who didn't know the Lejonklou Forum and Lejonklou products existed two years ago.

We've all benefitted from this. If I may suggest in this thread of yours, you should be the one who changes its' title and your username ;-). As an example, no one doing a Duck Duck Go search is going to use "practical", "playground", "exercises", or "beck" (It may be different in Europe but I don't know a single person with a good hi-fi who has a "Beck" record.). Maybe someone would use the word "listening".

As an example below I could forget a period & comma and change the way a search would read:

I heard an LP12 Ittok with Jeff Beck was right about the Audio Technica moving coil cartridge and should upgrade to an AT-VM95E as it sounds superb and is a great value, even if just putting an AT-VMN95E stylus in a K9.

Just (dog) food for thought.

Ron The Mon

ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2481
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-09-12 18:49

Just to get somewhat back on subject and title, here is I clip I made a couple of days ago. No comparisons, and the vinyl is a little noisy, but it was a record I put on to listen to one track and ended up playing the entirety.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wfr73c63jnu73 ... M.mov?dl=0
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.

ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2481
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-09-12 19:35

Just listened to the latest set of 95ML vs. 95E. Youch! I'll take the E any time, it really makes the music move. ML not even close.

By the way, is your record with the tracking problem at the end of the last cut one you bought used? I ask because I have found it not uncommon to find used records with groove damage on the last cut. Much of it probably comes from these records being played on record changers where the end of record arm lift mechanism was putting enough drag on the arm to cause groove damage. I have seen it several times. The worst was a supposedly "excellent" 2nd pressing In the Court of the Crimson King record I bought on eBay. The last two to three minutes on both sides has a loud screech engraved into the music. Luckily I eventually found a better 2nd pressing and then the most desirable 1st pressing which is very clean.
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.

Post Reply