Boring hifi forbidden!

[beck]

It is like being reborn. After a long and tiresome walk towards "perfect" hifi you wake up and find yourself wondering what happend!
I started looking for a great hifi system to enhance my enjoyment of recorded music a long time ago. Going from my Sony Receiver and Sony speakers to my first Linn system (Linn Basik, Intek and Helix) was the defining moment. Music became fun to listen to.

Do never let anyone tell you that your hifi should not be fun to listen to! Trust your own ears. Never change anything in your system that degrades your systems ability to play music that moves your heart and makes you sing and dance.

We can always improve the sound of our systems but never let go of that defining moment where music made an impact on your soul.

Ivor T. had a hard time back in the seventies trying to convince people to trust their own ears when buying hifi.

So do not get carried away by appearance, sound and price alone! Do not let your brain make the decision alone. Look at your feet. What is your head doing? Are you carried away by the music to another place and time?

Have fun and happy listening! :-)

[Efraim roots]

Worthwhile reminder, down to earth.

(bordering to be off topic) This thread reminded me of a quite famous speech by David Foster Wallace named "This is Water", also a worthwhile listen, check https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI

It's a good speech, like a good album side or so. I don't know which music it would be, nothing I normally listen to but it still has something.

[hcl]

So do not get carried away by appearance, sound and price alone! Do not let your brain make the decision alone. Look at your feet. What is your head doing? Are you carried away by the music to another place and time?

Have fun and happy listening! :-)

I think this is just what the major part on this forum has as aguiding star, but I agree, it is worth underlining!

[Efraim roots]

Why I came to think of David Foster Wallace speech was that it brings up some parts that he also discusses at lenght in other places which relates to the subject. The most obvious ”in your face” parts about everyday boredom, frustration etc, and learning to choose to handle it better isn’t directly related to the thread subject but there is some really good parts of the speech which I see as highly relevant.

1.
”the most obvious, important realities are often the ones that are hardest to see and talk about” (1:00), this quote I relate to becks opening post because it was a reminder of the most important reality of our context. David Foster Wallace also begs his listeners to, if only for a few minutes, pause their scepticism of the value in discussing or thinking about the obvious. Great point imo, since in the right time and place it may lead to better understanding at the very core, our most important realities. As the speech goes on he soon comes to the part of ”Blind certainty - a close-mindedness that amounts to an imprisonment so total that the prisoner doesn’t even know he’s locked up” (5:15) which I also find relevant because I want an including tone and being arrogantly certain of ones own interpretations isn’t helping. He’s also talking about how easy it is to over-intellectualize stuff and get stuck with arguments and dialogues in the head instead of paying attention to what’s in front of you, this is a well known topic from the tune dem discussions, he doesn’t really elaborate it but he brings it up in another context (speech as a whole) which gets rather interesting imo. David Foster Wallace also highlights that ”Everybody worships, the only choice we get is what to worship” and he continues saying ”Anything you worship will eat you alive”, ”if you worship money and things you will never feel you have enough”, ”worship power and you’ll end up feeling weak and afraid, you’ll need evermore power over others to numb you to your fear”, etc etc (17:55). This is a very strong part imo and it also relates to becks first rows in the opening post. What I would like to add is that becks ”long and tiresome walk towards ”perfect” hifi” also could include the tune dem walk, it’s nothing in the evaluation method stopping us from ”worshipping” hifi. Optimizing and upgrading your system could actually lead you away from music. That’s why it was a wortwhile reminder imo. ”the kind of worship you just gradually slip into day after day, getting more and more selective about what you see and how you measure value without ever being fully aware that that’s what you’re doing” (19:30)

2.
Ok, but what is the context and big picture of all this? For DFW it’s about ”default settings” of our mind, ”the mind being an excellent servant but a terrible master” (8:35) as he says in the more macabre part of his speech. That is what all these things have in common, the unconscious default settings in action, the terrible master in control. ”unconsciousness, the default setting, the rat race. the constant gnawing sense of having had, and lost, some infinite thing” (20:59) The remedy is all about simple awareness of what is real and essential, so hidden in plain sight all around us, all the time.

3.
Lastly, a record tip for the summer, Bob Marley & The Wailers - Rastaman Vibration, an album with a everlasting human relevance in the poetry of the words, accompanied by the forces of creation manifested by The Wailers riddim section. Very serious.

[beck]

Thank you for playing along with me on this tread. So interesting and inspiring!

So many comments could be made. I will make one:

When teaching I often tell my students to listen to their own playing without being judgemental. They just have to listen and be positive about and interested in what happened and take this information with them when they try again. You could call it being open for new insight not being fixed on a specific outcome.

This open approach is maybe one of the best ways to escape our " default settings".

[hcl]

Worthwhile reminder, down to earth.

(bordering to be off topic) This thread reminded me of a quite famous speech by David Foster Wallace named "This is Water", also a worthwhile listen, check https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI

It's a good speech, like a good album side or so. I don't know which music it would be, nothing I normally listen to but it still has something.

It is something to bring along. Really appreciate it. Thanks!

[Linnism]

The musical enjoyability quotient of hi fi equipment seems to rise in inverse relationship to the average winter temperature of the country of origin. Basically, the best hi fi comes from the coldest countries. (IMHO, YMMV, etc)

[beck]

So are we talking Canada or Alaska now?! :-)

[Erik]

Oymyakon, Russia
In 1933, in the republic of Yakutia, around 350km south of the Arctic Circle, the village of Oymyakon slipped to the numbing frostiness of -68°C, the coldest recorded air temperature in the northern hemisphere. A plaque in the village commemorates the event, but expect a long day of rugged driving from Yakutsk (around 800km to the west) if you plan to pay homage to this mercury marvel.
Hitch a ride aboard one of the tankers that transport water to the town (the native water is all frozen).
Picture: Alamy

[lejonklou]

I was just going to say that we have less distractions up north. Therefore it becomes easier to focus on your passion.

Just came back from a trip around middle and northern Sweden. Every sunny day beautifully restored vintage cars and motorbikes crowd the streets and drive around really slow. Their unsurpassed perfection confirms my theory.

[Linnism]

So are we talking Canada or Alaska now?! :-)

Well, perhaps not that cold.. Sweden, Scotland and Denmark are pretty cold though..

[donuk]

I can imagine country people, in northern Sweden, on winter evenings sitting huddled round their Tundra 2s warming their hands and enjoying the unit's augmented heat sink.
Donuk sunny downtown York

[ThomasOK]

I can tell you from having lived in "sunny Southern California" for six years that the constantly temperate climate and lack of much rain hindered the kind of inner reflection that fall and winter tend to generate here in Michigan. So there certainly could be something to this idea.

[beck]

Back to the subject: I had a listen at my friends house to his Sneaky, Majik 109 system and lovely detailed it was. Listened for two hours also on vinyl with a Project record player. All sounding very nice but I never got involved in the music being played and when I came home I noticed a clear difference in how the music was precented.

My old Linn system makes one big balloon of sound that I listen into to relate to the music and my brain never gets tired.

The new Linn system makes a bunch of details that my brain has a hard time putting together as one sound, one emotion when trying to listen to music.

Making a short a/b demo between the systems would tell most people that the new system is clearly the best.

Thats the dilemma makers of hifi has to overcome if they want to pursue a truely musical hifi system. It would take some time to convince people to go for the music, not the sparkle of details.

I am glad that someone back in 1988 made the effort and convinced me about it.

[Charlie1]

I think I know what you mean, although not hearing what you heard makes it hard to be sure.

Some loosely related thoughts having read your post: -

1. My experience is that the very best hifi doesn't sound detailed at all, although it will still resolve a lot of information, probably more so than a hifi labelled as being detailed. The wealth of retrieved information will help to better recreate the recording with a more lifelike sound and engaging performance. I know I've said this before but a piano in real life never sounds detailed. It just sounds like a piano.

2. Glad you preferred the more engaging system over the more detailed one. I suspect most of us here would have done the same which is what continues to make the forum so useful.

3. My hardest tune dems have involved one option with more detailed or impressive sound and the other option with only slightly better musicality.

4. I don't think you can point any finger at new products in general as being worse. Your LP12 should be a lot more musical than the Project and Source First suggests yours is therefore the more musical system.

5. Your system is clearly working very well and you're getting a lot of pleasure from it. That's great. Enjoy your music collection.

[beck]

Yes, I'm not on a crusade against new Linn or digital. I am just looking foreward to me listening to a digital based system that really satisfies me :-)

And now a little test: Take your copy of The Beatles Mono Masters. Listen to the first 2 or 3 tracks on side one. If you notice something different (not quite right) about track one (Love Me Do) your system is really "tuneful".

[Music Lover]

1. My experience is that the very best hifi doesn't sound detailed at all, although it will still resolve a lot of information, probably more so than a hifi labelled as being detailed. The wealth of retrieved information will help to better recreate the recording with a more lifelike sound and engaging performance. I know I've said this before but a piano in real life never sounds detailed. It just sounds like a piano.

Agree!!

[lejonklou]

My old Linn system makes one big balloon of sound that I listen into to relate to the music and my brain never gets tired.

The new Linn system makes a bunch of details that my brain has a hard time putting together as one sound, one emotion when trying to listen to music.

This is an interesting description and I think I know what you mean by it.

1. My experience is that the very best hifi doesn't sound detailed at all, although it will still resolve a lot of information, probably more so than a hifi labelled as being detailed. The wealth of retrieved information will help to better recreate the recording with a more lifelike sound and engaging performance. I know I've said this before but a piano in real life never sounds detailed. It just sounds like a piano.

This is so true!

I listened to a string octet last week and one thing that came to mind is how the violins, violas and cellos during certain passages sounded like one single instrument. Impressive - musically. Not an impressive amount of detail.

My hardest tune dems have involved one option with more detailed or impressive sound and the other option with only slightly better musicality.

Same here and I have those often. Sometimes I fall into the trap of picking the more impressive option. But I take notes of everything I do and whenever something appears to add a new level of detail or clarity, I check it again later. More often than not, it's a trap.

[beck]

The "more often than not, it's a trap" I recognise so well. When trying to optimise setup and so on it is so easy to get it wrong.

[u252agz]

If Fredrik can fall into a trap, - what hope is there for someone like me?

I will carry on doing what I am best at; turning on the music and enjoying the fruits of other people's hard labour.

[beck]

That is a wise choice and what I have been doing for many years before it finally came to me when I tried to upgrade my system.
The recordings we listen to are just as different and "flawed" as the systems we can find in the shops and this makes it even more difficult to recognise.

So just keep on enjoying the music!

[u252agz]

Re the sneaky / 109 combination not being as engaging as the old Linn sound:

When I replaced my Ikemi with a sneaky and Zoneripper NAS, keeping the Kolektor, triactive LK140s and Ninkas; there was little difference in the presentation/engagement. If anything I think I preferred the Sneaky , but not by much.

So maybe the differences you notice are in the sneaky's volume control/ Kolektor preamp, together with the sneaky's amp module vs the LK140s and the 109s vs Ninkas.

Another thing which may be of interest is that ; with Sagatun monos and Tundra mono 2s driving 242s recently, the forced introduction of the sneaky in place of the KDS/1 was to my ears, quite good and definitely more engaging than my old Linn system. More detailed for sure - but in a good way.

Maybe the new linn speakers are much more demanding in terms of amplification and source.

I have great respect for the Ninkas - I remember them sounding fantastic with KRDS /AK1 and Tundra stereo 1.2.

[beck]

Let me put it like this: with analog recordings it is easy for me through my system to recognise when someone is not quite in tune (as when musicians live do not play at quite the exact pitch to be in tune with each other).

When digital gets involved it becomes much more difficult for me to hear, be it a digital recording, digital volume control in preamp, digital source ect.
To me, this is very important. To others it might not be just as important.

So, before I change anything in my system it has to retain this ability as well as being better (more "detailed"). A difficult task.

This is the reason why the late Kairn and the 2250 I had for a while did not stay with me and the main reason why I have problems with anything digital. A close call but to me an important one in my hunt for music.

Put another way: I seek a system that lets me use my ears the same way as when I play live.

[hcl]

...
Another thing which may be of interest is that ; with Sagatun monos and Tundra mono 2s driving 242s recently, the forced introduction of the sneaky in place of the KDS/1 was to my ears, quite good and definitely more engaging than my old Linn system. More detailed for sure - but in a good way.

Could you elaborate around this a bit? Maybe in a different thread!?

[u252agz]

I hesitate to do so because:

1 The impressions were not based on ABA testing but how the system sounded after the changes forced upon me by the upgrade process. This is subject to more memory and psychological bias than usual

2 I suspect I am not one of the most discerning members on the forum - relying only on digital sources for listening and comparing musicality; and am probably more easily pleased, compared to others.

However; with Sagatun monos , Tundra Mono 2s and 242s the sneaky sounded quite listenable and hugely more enjoyable, compared to my kitchen system of sneaky driving Ninkas ( worse room acoustics aside ). I would say much more musical as well as a more 'impressive' sound.

I had this system for a couple of weeks, whilst waiting for the KDS/2 to arrive and never tired of it - I remember always developing listening fatigue with the sneaky / triactive LK140s and Ninkas ( ? not sure how well this was installed).

Perhaps a topic for a new thread may be ' peoples experience with good playback systems ( ie Sagatuns/KK and Tundra 2s/Solos) and lesser sources and, with the excellent preamps and amps now available; ' is it ever worthwhile upgrading the former and waiting for major source upgrades when funds allow.'