Ubiquity AmpliFi HD

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lejonklou
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

tokenbrit wrote: 2022-03-02 02:17
lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-02 01:45 I don’t think the 5 m cable length in layout B is the main problem, because simply putting that cable on layout A doesn’t produce the same difference.
Is that with the 5m cable between the 2 HDs for an Ethernet connection rather than wireless? Or not because of the ground, as below?
No. What I meant was this:

IF in setup A (see my drawings on page 6) I replace the Blue Jeans Cable (between 2.5 and 3 m long) between Second Amplifi and Switch with the 5 m long cable that can be seen in setup B, I get a small drop in musical performance.

IF I change from setup A to setup B, I get a big drop in musical performance.

In both cases, a 5 m long and not great sounding ethernet cable feeds the switch. My conclusion is that this cable is not responsible for the musical difference between setup A and setup B.

Agree?
tokenbrit wrote: 2022-03-02 02:17
lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-02 01:45 I think that the second Amplifi is powered next to the [switch?] is important.
Could this be achieved without a second Amplifi HD if we have the Internet modem near our system to plug in a single HD next to the switch? Subject to not needing any cables other than to the switch(es)?
I don't know and can't really test this.

Thank you for pointing out my mistake! I wrote 'router' instead of 'switch' in that post. Now corrected!
tokenbrit wrote: 2022-03-02 02:17
lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-02 01:45 I think that the two Amplifi each have only one cable connected (the cables carry ground) is likely beneficial.
Does that mean that both Amplifi HDs need a single cable to a switch if additional Ethernet connections are needed; not just the HD for the system with the 108T?
I don't understand what you're asking here. This was just a hunch ('think' and 'likely') and I should have thought it through and/or verified it with experiments instead of posting it.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by tokenbrit »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-03 00:13
tokenbrit wrote: 2022-03-02 02:17
lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-02 01:45 I don’t think the 5 m cable length in layout B is the main problem, because simply putting that cable on layout A doesn’t produce the same difference.
Is that with the 5m cable between the 2 HDs for an Ethernet connection rather than wireless? Or not because of the ground, as below?
No. What I meant was this:

IF in setup A (see my drawings on page 6) I replace the Blue Jeans Cable (between 2.5 and 3 m long) between Second Amplifi and Switch with the 5 m long cable that can be seen in setup B, I get a small drop in musical performance.

IF I change from setup A to setup B, I get a big drop in musical performance.

In both cases, a 5 m long and not great sounding ethernet cable feeds the switch. My conclusion is that this cable is not responsible for the musical difference between setup A and setup B.

Agree?
tokenbrit wrote: 2022-03-02 02:17
lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-02 01:45 I think that the second Amplifi is powered next to the [switch?] is important.
Could this be achieved without a second Amplifi HD if we have the Internet modem near our system to plug in a single HD next to the switch? Subject to not needing any cables other than to the switch(es)?
I don't know and can't really test this.

Thank you for pointing out my mistake! I wrote 'router' instead of 'switch' in that post. Now corrected!
tokenbrit wrote: 2022-03-02 02:17
lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-02 01:45 I think that the two Amplifi each have only one cable connected (the cables carry ground) is likely beneficial.
Does that mean that both Amplifi HDs need a single cable to a switch if additional Ethernet connections are needed; not just the HD for the system with the 108T?
I don't understand what you're asking here and I can't possibly answer. This was just a hunch ('think' and 'likely') and I should have thought it through and/or verified it with experiments instead of posting it.
Thanks for your time, patience, & responses to each question. Yes, agree with the logic... proof reader is the least I could do ;)
I appreciate that you can't test, so consider the line of questioning from me as closed.
Defender's clarification helped me understand the 'single cable' - WAN to 1; LAN from 2.
As far as reducing the number of Ethernet cables connected, I just wondered whether a separate switch was any different to using the LAN ports of the Amplifi HD by reducing if not isolating the influence of additional connections...
I'm trying to work out how to test for myself with the equipment I have on hand before deciding whether to invest in one or two HDs. Slow progress as I need to reconfigure a few things, so was just hoping for guidance if you'd tested certain scenarios.
Again, thanks for the replies.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

tokenbrit wrote: 2022-03-03 00:34 As far as reducing the number of Ethernet cables connected, I just wondered whether a separate switch was any different to using the LAN ports of the Amplifi HD by reducing if not isolating the influence of additional connections...
OK, this I think I can test with the following:

We have an Apple TV in the living room where the HiFi is. This is connected by WiFi and when selecting Källa as 'Speaker', the sound of films and TV series are improved beyond belief. Connecting Apple TV with a cable to the GS-108T switch instead of using WiFi is really bad for the sound of Källa. Not just when listening to the Apple TV, but also when playing music from the iPad. For this reason, I wrote 'Don't connect anything else to the switch' on the Recommended Setup sketch.

Now, I can wake up Apple TV (it doesn't have to play anything, just be awake) and then play some music on Källa with our iPad mini 6. Then I attach a network cable between Apple TV and the GS-108T switch. I expect the music will sound worse. Then I move the cable to between Apple TV and the second Amplifi HD, to see whether this is preferable (less negative impact on the music playing).

Is this the kind of answer you're looking for?
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by tokenbrit »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-03 00:59
tokenbrit wrote: 2022-03-03 00:34 As far as reducing the number of Ethernet cables connected, I just wondered whether a separate switch was any different to using the LAN ports of the Amplifi HD by reducing if not isolating the influence of additional connections...
OK, this I think I can test with the following:

We have an Apple TV in the living room where the HiFi is. This is connected by WiFi and when selecting Källa as 'Speaker', the sound of films and TV series are improved beyond belief. Connecting Apple TV with a cable to the GS-108T switch instead of using WiFi is really bad for the sound of Källa. Not just when listening to the Apple TV, but also when playing music from the iPad. For this reason, I wrote 'Don't connect anything else to the switch' on the Recommended Setup sketch.

Now, I can wake up Apple TV (it doesn't have to play anything, just be awake) and then play some music on Källa with our iPad mini 6. Then I attach a network cable between Apple TV and the GS-108T switch. I expect the music will sound worse. Then I move the cable to between Apple TV and the second Amplifi HD, to see whether this is preferable (less negative impact on the music playing).

Is this the kind of answer you're looking for?
Yes, I think so :? In your setup it was a question of whether connecting your Apple TV to the 1st/Home Amplifi HD made any difference if it was by cable directly to the Home HD or via a switch; not the Hifi HD/108T... But just the fact that the Apple TV connected physically to the 108T degrades the sound of the Kalla, that much, rather indicates that there's a negative influence that's best avoided.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

tokenbrit wrote: 2022-03-03 01:54 Yes, I think so :? In your setup it was a question of whether connecting your Apple TV to the 1st/Home Amplifi HD made any difference if it was by cable directly to the Home HD or via a switch; not the Hifi HD/108T... But just the fact that the Apple TV connected physically to the 108T degrades the sound of the Kalla, that much, rather indicates that there's a negative influence that's best avoided.
Ah, you want me to "disturb" the first Amplifi HD? Sure, I can connect the Apple TV there instead.

I kind of doubt adding a switch in between the Amplifi HD and the "disturbing elements" will make much of a difference. In particular if the "disturbing elements" is only one.

Why don't you start a new thread where you make a sketch of all the rooms, all the things you want to connect and how (cable, WiFi, cable/WiFi), where the HiFi is, the internet enters and all the mains outlets are? Then maybe we can suggest some layouts? Not that you have to try them, but they might help you get new ideas.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by tokenbrit »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-03 02:07 Why don't you start a new thread...
Leave it with me. Be forewarned it may be a few days while I listen to the new firmware... or rather, while I listen to music with greater insight & enjoyment thanks to the new firmware :)
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by Azazello »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-01 22:50 OK, so I have compared the following two network setups:

A:
Amplifi-A.gif

B:
Amplifi-B.gif

A is much better than B.

While B sounds like a great digital music streamer, A delivers magical music that playfully grips me and won't let me switch it off.
This made a huge difference for me! My system has been unpredictable for a couple of weeks. Now it’s just bonkers good.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

Great to hear that, Azazello!
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by Azazello »

I should clarify that I use another mesh router. Would you say it’s worth getting the same one as you are using?
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by macrotech2 »

Apologies if this has already been clarified Fredrik but I’d like to confirm. I believe you are saying that it doesn’t matter how many devices you have connected on the WiFi so long as Amplifi 2 is one of them and that its only cable connection is to the switch connected to Källa?

The reason I ask is that I have many possible options adding two Amplifi to my existing BT Home Hub, which currently feeds the system using Ethernet over mains. For example I could create a dedicated WiFi SSID for the system and even create a separate Subnet for it. So many permutations!
Källa/Sagatun Mono Tarandus/Tundra Mono 3/Avalon Idea Mk2
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

Azazello wrote: 2022-03-05 18:55 I should clarify that I use another mesh router. Would you say it’s worth getting the same one as you are using?
I don’t know. Maybe yours is even better? Amplifi HD is the best I (and we) have heard so far, but how many have we tested in total? Probably not more than ten.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

macrotech2 wrote: 2022-03-05 19:15 Apologies if this has already been clarified Fredrik but I’d like to confirm. I believe you are saying that it doesn’t matter how many devices you have connected on the WiFi so long as Amplifi 2 is one of them and that its only cable connection is to the switch connected to Källa?
I have not noticed any change in performance with the amount of devices that are connected to the WiFi.

I am not saying that only one cable must be connected to the second Amplifi HD. All I’m saying is that’s my setup and it sounds fantastic!
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by macrotech2 »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-05 19:26
macrotech2 wrote: 2022-03-05 19:15 Apologies if this has already been clarified Fredrik but I’d like to confirm. I believe you are saying that it doesn’t matter how many devices you have connected on the WiFi so long as Amplifi 2 is one of them and that its only cable connection is to the switch connected to Källa?
I have not noticed any change in performance with the amount of devices that are connected to the WiFi.

I am not saying that only one cable must be connected to the second Amplifi HD. All I’m saying is that’s my setup and it sounds fantastic!
Thanks for the quick reply Fredrik. I have two Amplifi and will report back in a week or so (I have other comparisons on the go and don’t want to make multiple changes at once).
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by tokenbrit »

I wasn't sure where or whether to post this, and it's not meant as disrespectful to the Amplifi HD recommendation, but possibly relevant to macrotech's installation, so here it is.

Reading up on Amplifi HD reviews, I'm not getting good vibes about the security side of this router. I understand this may not be of concern to some / most, so this is just for awareness, not to recommend against.

The comments I found were mostly from a few years ago, so I don't know if any have been resolved - I couldn't find updates to say they had been...
- minor(?) issue reported here & here is that you don't have access to the router logs because they're encrypted - Ubiquiti Dev have to read them for you if you have a network issue you're trying to understand, which suggests Ubiquiti have access to your router :?
- reported concern that you have limited configurability over DHCP settings - likely a non-issue unless you like to setup your network manually, or are running into conflicts with an existing network setup :/
- greater concern over security/firewall settings as discussed here. It seems a port scan returns responses that a port is closed rather than a preferred stealth/non-response to external scanning :(

Again these may not be a concern to most here, but could be something to be aware of...

A security option seems to be to use the Amplifi HD as a secondary router, or routers, behind something more secure, but I don't know what that would do to the musical performance, or how much of that performance comes from following the mesh setup, as Azazello found. Ubiquiti also have their enterprise level Unifi range, which reportedly has better security than their consumer oriented Amplifi HDs, but Unifi quickly starts to get complicated, which may compromise the musicality (pure speculation on my part)

So, macrotech2: I'll be interested to know how you get on with your 2 Amplifi HDs either extending your BT Home Hub network, or as a separate WiFi & subnet... I figure the Home Hub's security would protect the Amplifi side of things, hopefully without compromising the music. Please let us know.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

Azazello wrote: 2022-03-05 18:55 I should clarify that I use another mesh router.
Azazello,
please can you disclose which mesh router you use. It will be an important data point.
Thank you.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by Juampa »

My first post here! I have been reading here for a long time, but did not dire to write (a plain user with limited skills regarding networks, simple English, etc). But I wanted to highlight a few things.

First, mi appreciation of what Fredrik does to help everybody.

I read many times about the recommended Netgear switch, but only recently I discovered that it can work unmanaged! I purchased one for my main Linn streamer and followed Fredrik’s indications, and it worked. I purchased a second one for my other streamer, and it also worked well. I also recognized that the polarity is important.

I also think the length of the ethernet cable influences, and the BlueJean brand helps.

The last point is about the router. I do not know if I will follow the HD route (sounds threatening!), but so far, the discussion made me change the setup and it has been a revelation. I have a system from the Spanish main telephone company, which consists of three parts: fiber-intermediate thingy-router+wifi. The router has also a switch incorporated, with 4 ports. All this is in the office, so I had difficulties in the wifi arriving to the salon. I had a technician who installed an additional 8 ports tp-link switch in the office, and a tp-link wifi in the salon, connected by cable to the tp-link switch connected to the router, with its own wifi disconnected. The change I made is that the ethernet cables feeding the ADSM in the salon is connected to the router and not to the 8 ports switch (telephone company router > Netgear Gs-108T > ADSM). The NAS is also connected to the telephone company router, as is my second streamer; the last port is providing the signal to the Tp-link 8 port switch (which is used for the AppleTV, tp-link wifi, computers, etc). This change in set-up has been clearly beneficial in my case, may be indicating that the telephone router is good and in any case reinforcing the idea that the router is more important than we thought. Yes, a revelation, so once again thank you for helping us in the distance. So much still to gain from this technologies!

Juampa
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by Azazello »

matthias wrote: 2022-03-05 22:27
Azazello wrote: 2022-03-05 18:55 I should clarify that I use another mesh router.
Azazello,
please can you disclose which mesh router you use. It will be an important data point.
Thank you.
Asus RT-AX92U - AX6100
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by Azazello »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-05 19:20 I don’t know. Maybe yours is even better? Amplifi HD is the best I (and we) have heard so far, but how many have we tested in total? Probably not more than ten.
My question was more mote like "Is it worth the cost, if you assume that my random router is average". :)

After all it's at least € 600. And I'll probably need to get three if one is to be situated by the hi-fi.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

Azazello wrote: 2022-03-06 22:30
lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-05 19:20 I don’t know. Maybe yours is even better? Amplifi HD is the best I (and we) have heard so far, but how many have we tested in total? Probably not more than ten.
My question was more mote like "Is it worth the cost, if you assume that my random router is average". :)

After all it's at least € 600. And I'll probably need to get three if one is to be situated by the hi-fi.
I am still not sure whether it's better than yours. Compared to the TP-Link DECO Mesh system, which sounded really bad, Amplifi HD is a huge upgrade. Compared to the old Technicolor router, which was a lot more musical than DECO, Amplifi HD was still a rather big upgrade.

But then I've visited customers who've had other routers and their Källa has sounded terrific. And then I'm not so sure my dual Amplifi HD setup is actually better. Without comparing, we just don't know.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

Azazello wrote: 2022-03-06 22:11 Asus RT-AX92U - AX6100
Not saying that it is an indicator for musicality, but yours is Wifi6 and the Amplifi HD is Wifi5
Last edited by matthias on 2022-03-07 14:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-06 23:08 But then I've visited customers who've had other routers and their Källa has sounded terrific.
Maybe it makes sense to post a recommended router list and over time there will be a ranking?
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by tokenbrit »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-05 19:20 .. Amplifi HD is the best I (and we) have heard so far, but how many have we tested in total? Probably not more than ten.
Were Airport Extreme (base) & Airport Express (client) amongst those ten? Curious whether there's any Apple WiFi synergy with the iPad Mini & AirPlay that has been found to benefit Källa Protokoll, or not.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

No, I have never tested any Apple Airport products.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by Defender »

I hope I get my Amplifi HD‘s this week - I will make some clips before

1 using a Fritzbox 7590 as Modem/Router but directly wired over Ethernet and after
2 with one Amplifi HD (Fritzbox used as Wifi Router => Amplifi HD) and
3 with two Amplifi HD‘s (Fritzbox as Modem =>WAN to Amplifi 1 =>Wifi to Amplifi 2

… to help Matthias to establish its list
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

Defender wrote: 2022-03-07 17:22 I hope I get my Amplifi HD‘s this week - I will make some clips before

1 using a Fritzbox 7590 as Modem/Router but directly wired over Ethernet and after
2 with one Amplifi HD (Fritzbox used as Wifi Router => Amplifi HD) and
3 with two Amplifi HD‘s (Fritzbox as Modem =>WAN to Amplifi 1 =>Wifi to Amplifi 2

… to help Matthias to establish its list
Great and very kind :-)
IMO, a Recommended Router list would be useful.
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