Recommended network components

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Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

While waiting for the first batch of Källa to be delivered, we've been doing a lot of tests on various networks. So I have a lot of things to report and will continually post them in this thread.

* First of all, Källa has worked flawlessly in every network we've used it in. You simply connect it, switch it on and it's ready to use. There's nothing to configure or optimize unless you really want to.

* For those who wish to optimize performance, there are a number of details that affect the musical quality. Most are not specific to Källa, but make a difference with all digital music streamers.

* Källa specific parameter that can be optimized: Setting a fixed IP.
I recommend that once Källa is switched on and has connected to the network, you find its network address by surfing to the router (opening a browser window and entering its network address) and check which devices are connected. Then you surf to the adress of Källa, to enter its web interface. Choose "Settings" and set a fixed IP adress (either reserved in the router or far outside its range of automatically generated adresses). Then restart Källa. Now it's no longer running DHCP and sounds a little better.

* Källa specific parameter that can be optimized: Choice of control point.
I recommend you choose a control point from the top of this list: https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... 423#p56423

* General network parameter that can be optimized: Choice of router.
All digital music streamers are affected by the choice of router. They simply all sound a little different and we haven't found any pattern that can help in the choice of router. This was first discovered many years ago using Naim and Linn streamers and it seems no consensus has been reached, partly because the network is of such general importance to our households that we choose a router that works well, has enough physical range, is fast enough, etc. This forum might prove helpful for those who wish to optimize this parameter.

* General network parameter that can be optimized: Using a switch.
The use of a network switch between the router and the digital music streamer is usually beneficial to the musical performance of the streamer. All switches sound a little different and a very popular model is the Netgear GS-108T. It should be powered from a separate strip or mains outlet than the HiFi system. Powering the router and a NAS from the same strip as the switch works fine. We have found that in most networks, the same arrangement is beneficial also for Källa. In a few cases the switch hasn't provided an improvement to Källa's musical performance, but we are unsure of exactly when this is the case (it might have to do with which and how many other units are connected to the router). So the recommendation is to use a separately powered GS-108T and simply compare this with connecting Källa directly to the router. It's likely you'll keep the switch.
We have evaluated a couple of WiFi-to-Ethernet devices, which could replace the switch. Källa would then connect to this device with a cable and the device connects to the router through WiFi. This arrangement is likely to perform worse in most networks than the use of a switch.

* General network parameter that can be optimized: Ethernet cables.
Källa is affected by the model and length of Ethernet cables in exactly the same way as other digital music streamers are. The discussions and evaluations of these cables are found in other threads on this forum. The best Ethernet cable I have is an old and very inexpensive 3 m long Microconnect (no longer available). Blue Jeans CAT6a in ~2.5 m length are really good and there are a few expensive cables that perform well. As always in the cable business: Never make any assumptions, there is zero correlation between price and musical performance, always judge by comparing and using the Tune Method.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by Spannko »

Thanks Fredrik. May I suggest that you make a distinction between a combined modem/router (the type our ISP’s normally supply) and a separate router being supplied by a modem (usually the ISP’s modem/router). I’ve added a Netgear router to our Virgin modem/router because of problems we were having with VOIP. The phones work perfectly now, but I’ve no idea if the sound of my system is effected. Maybe I should do a video comparison and see what everyone thinks?
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by V.A.MKD »

Thank you Fredrik ...
Music First ...
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-09-07 13:31 We have evaluated a couple of WiFi-to-Ethernet devices, which could replace the switch. Källa would then connect to this device with a cable and the device connects to the router through WiFi. This arrangement is likely to perform worse in most networks than the use of a switch.
Thanks Fredrik,
for all of us who have the ISP modem/router in an utility room in the basement where a connection via ethernet cable to Källa its not possible it might be helpful to try these additional configurations:

1.) WiFi-to-Ethernet device > switch > Källa

2.) CP like MacBook with WiFi input and output via Ethernet cable directly to Källa.
In this case the settings are Mac "System Preferences"/"Sharing"/"Internet Sharing"/"WiFi to Ethernet"/

Thanks again

Matt
Last edited by matthias on 2021-09-08 12:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote: 2021-09-08 08:33 1.) WiFi-to-Ethernet device > switch > Källa
We have already tried this. Our conclusion is that it's usually worse than the standard arrangement Router - Switch - Källa.

If you must use a WiFi-to-Ethernet converter, because you don't have any cable access, you need to experiment whether adding a switch brings an improvement. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

In the rare case where we found that the WiFi-to-Ethernet converter sounded better than a cabled connection to the router, the WiFi-to-Ethernet unit sounded best without the switch.

The truth is that in order to optimize a local network for maximum musical performance from a digital music streamer, one needs to test a couple of things. Like comparing router-streamer with router-switch-streamer. There is no single recipy that always works, but rather a few recipes that often work.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

matthias wrote: 2021-09-08 08:33 2.) CP like MacBook with WiFi input and output via Ethernet cable directly to Källa.
In this case the settings are Mac "System Preferences"/"Sharing"/"Internet Sharing"/"WiFi to Ethernet"/
Fredrik,
it would be very nice if you or one of your team members can try this configuration (settings above) as well:

ISP/router > wifi > MacBook > wired ethernet > Källa

Thank you

Matt
Last edited by matthias on 2021-09-08 23:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

I have put that on the list, matthias. I'm wondering whether the macbook will start dhcp and assign addresses. In that case the fixed ip setting on Källa can likely not be used.

My gut feeling is that if this odd arrangement works, it's going to sound worse than connecting Källa to a WiFi-to-Ethernet adaptor (I have a list of recommended parts for that).
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-09-08 15:04 I have put that on the list, matthias. I'm wondering whether the macbook will start dhcp and assign addresses. In that case the fixed ip setting on Källa can likely not be used.

My gut feeling is that if this odd arrangement works, it's going to sound worse than connecting Källa to a WiFi-to-Ethernet adaptor (I have a list of recommended parts for that).
Thanks Fredrik,
you can switch off DHCP at MB network settings and assign addresses manually. In this mode I have it running.
Curious about your part list for the WiFi-to-Ethernet adaptors.

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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote: 2021-09-07 15:50 Thanks Fredrik. May I suggest that you make a distinction between a combined modem/router (the type our ISP’s normally supply) and a separate router being supplied by a modem (usually the ISP’s modem/router). I’ve added a Netgear router to our Virgin modem/router because of problems we were having with VOIP. The phones work perfectly now, but I’ve no idea if the sound of my system is effected. Maybe I should do a video comparison and see what everyone thinks?
Good idea Spannko. Please do post a comparison!

I have tested modem/routers combined and separate. It appeared that the router was far more influential than the modem. And I'm also thinking that the router is more easily replaceable if they are separate.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by jajo »

If you don't mind Matthias, I will respond here since I have OCD about keeping things in the right thread.
matthias wrote: 2021-09-21 08:43 Do you have any recommendations for network devices like router, ethernet cables etc. with Källa?
Thanks

Matt
I've had good results with Bluejeans network cables. Optimal length is somewhere around 3m.

I use a Netgear GS108T where only Källa is connected. The uplink from GS108T goes to an ethernet outlet in my wall that is patched to a router/switch which is a part of a Amplifi Ubiquity Wifi mesh system.

Källa is sensitive to the network and there are lots of performance improvements to be gained from experimenting with different routers/switches/network cables and also different ways to connect things. When everything is connected in the worst sounding way, it is still great. When everything is optimal, it is clearly better. However, you get used to the higher performance level very quickly and then it is hard to go back. I tend to keep things connected in a way that is practical for my daily use, even if I know that I can get slightly higher performance with a different setup.

In the future, I might consider a dedicated device to play from (using the method described by Fredrik to use the Spotify client as a remote from other devices) but right now I really enjoy just playing music with whatever device I am currently using.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

jajo wrote: 2021-09-21 12:43 If you don't mind Matthias, I will respond here since I have OCD about keeping things in the right thread.
Perfect jajo thanks,
in my case I would have to use a WiFi-to-Ethernet adaptor because router and audio system are on different levels.
I must say I have no clue how Källa could work optimally in my environment.

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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-09-08 12:07 In the rare case where we found that the WiFi-to-Ethernet converter sounded better than a cabled connection to the router, the WiFi-to-Ethernet unit sounded best without the switch.
Fredrik,
if you find some time during your work on Källa can you please shed some light on this "rare case" and which converter you found sounding better than a cabled connection.
This would be very helpful.
Thank you

Matt
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

matthias wrote: 2021-09-08 12:45 Fredrik,
it would be very nice if you or one of your team members can try this configuration (settings above) as well:

ISP/router > wifi > MacBook > wired ethernet > Källa

Thank you

Matt
You find some info about configuration of the MacBook here:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topi ... /#comments

There are at least reports that it might sound better than with a wifi-to-ethernet adaptor.
Thanks

Matt
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by Whatsmynaim »

In preparation for Källa here's a few things I'm wondering.
I'm taking it's the standard "normal" iPhone 11 and not the Pro or Pro Max model that sounds the best.
Some more questions.
Do the amount of built in memory in the iPhone matter for the sound? There's 64GB and 128GB etc.
And is there any benefits from using a device for galvanic separation/isolation when connecting Källa to the router or switch?
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

Whatsmynaim wrote: 2021-09-29 19:45 I'm taking it's the standard "normal" iPhone 11 and not the Pro or Pro Max model that sounds the best.
Yes, standard model. We haven't tested the Pro versions of 11.
Whatsmynaim wrote: 2021-09-29 19:45 Do the amount of built in memory in the iPhone matter for the sound? There's 64GB and 128GB etc.
Most likely not. There are a lot of things that don't seem to matter, like what programs are running and whether it's charging, on power save mode (when the battery is low), etc. And other units with different memory sizes have not given any indication that it matters.
Whatsmynaim wrote: 2021-09-29 19:45 And is there any benefits from using a device for galvanic separation/isolation when connecting Källa to the router or switch?
No. It's perfectly fine that Källa is galvanically connected to the switch and the network. Any added devices apart from the switch only seem to decrease performance.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by tokenbrit »

Hopefully regional differences make no difference to the order of recommended Apple components - https://www.pcmag.com/news/beware-there ... -iphone-11 - and a US iPhone 11 is still the best sounding device here, not just in Europe :?

Since the phone network is, presumably, not involved in streaming Spotify when the iPhone is used as the airplay sender, then any cellular / mobile network differences won't matter to Kalla.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

tokenbrit wrote: 2021-09-30 00:01 Since the phone network is, presumably, not involved in streaming Spotify when the iPhone is used as the airplay sender, then any cellular / mobile network differences won't matter to Kalla.
Yes, Wi‑Fi 6 (802.11ax) with MIMO seems to be the same for all 11s.

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Re: Recommended network components

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lejonklou wrote: 2021-09-08 12:07 In the rare case where we found that the WiFi-to-Ethernet converter sounded better than a cabled connection to the router, the WiFi-to-Ethernet unit sounded best without the switch.
I do not know which WiFi-to-Ethernet converter Fredrik found sounding better than a cabled connection but from the reports on other audio forums this device seems to fulfill this qualification:

https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-network ... der/re650/

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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote: 2021-09-30 09:14 I do not know which WiFi-to-Ethernet converter Fredrik found sounding better than a cabled connection but from the reports on other audio forums this device seems to fulfill this qualification:

https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-network ... der/re650/
We haven't tested that particular model, but some others. And the best sounding one was a TP-Link called TL-WR802N. There's a similar looking model ending with AC that is not as good.

It's a mini travel router, which in this application you set to Client Mode and connect it with an ethernet cable to Källa. The supplied 5V mains adapter doesn't sound great and is best replaced by one of the bigger Apple adapters (we found the 96W model sounded best but the next one down isn't bad either).

We found this arrangement sounding better than a regular cabled connection and a GS-108T switch in only one network. Interestingly, in that same network and using a cabled connection, adding a GS-108T switch didn't bring any improvement. So apparently this network was an outlier. In all other networks, adding the switch improved the music.

When using this WiFi-to-Ethernet adapter, adding a switch never seems beneficial.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

Thank you Fredrik.

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Re: Recommended network components

Post by tokenbrit »

matthias wrote: 2021-09-30 08:50
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-09-30 00:01 Since the phone network is, presumably, not involved in streaming Spotify when the iPhone is used as the airplay sender, then any cellular / mobile network differences won't matter to Kalla.
Yes, Wi‑Fi 6 (802.11ax) with MIMO seems to be the same for all 11s.

Matt
Do you just mean the wifi specs are the same for all 11s, or is WiFi 6 the suggested router spec? I trust we're ok with 802.11ac or n... Hopefully the wireless standard itself has no musical impact in this application, although I am not sure that can be inferred directly from the wireless N nano router recommendation for the unusual(?) situation where a WiFi-to-Ethernet converter sounds better than cabled.
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Re: Recommended network components

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tokenbrit wrote: 2021-09-30 12:37 Do you just mean the wifi specs are the same for all 11s, or is WiFi 6 the suggested router spec?
WIFi 6 is spec for all iPhone 11, not suggested for router.
All the latest iPhones and Macs with Apple silicon processors have WiFi 6 specs.
If WiFi 6 is more or less musical than WiFi 5 I do not know,
Did someone compare?

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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

I should mention that when setting up a network for Källa, it seems what sounds best is the same as for a Linn DS.

So if you already have a network for a Linn DS that works and sounds well, you don't have to change anything when you upgrade to Källa.

This is rather interesting to us, as we didn't start in that end and therefore haven't tuned Källa to perform optimally with the typical recommended network arrangement. Rather it appears to be intrinsic qualities that dictate how the network is best arranged. Linn recommended a switch in between the router and DS from the very beginning and they did a good job there, as it's still the optimal arrangement in most situations. And the Netgear GS-108 has also remained on top during all these years (I haven't heard all the alternatives, but have so far not heard anything better).

There are some exceptions to the typical recommended arrangement, but they're not that many in my experience. Long ago I remember being recommended adding an optical bridge (galvanic isolator) between the network and the streamer. I found it was worse, but then I visited the customer and we tried it in his system. He had a machine park with the router in the basement and wires to the rooms upstairs. Low and behold, the optical bridge really did improve the music in his system. But none of the others that I tried it in. Perhaps it was due to the large number of units connected to this basement network? I don't know.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-09-07 13:31 * Källa specific parameter that can be optimized: Setting a fixed IP.
Fredrik,
does setting a fixed IP for the CP also improve musicality?
Thanks

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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote: 2021-10-04 07:10 Fredrik,
does setting a fixed IP for the CP also improve musicality?
I don't think it does. Haven't tried it.

Fixed IP in Källa is different from fixed IP on all other parts of the network. In Källa it's a feature that stops unnecessary activity, and this improves its musicality. Källa isn't affected by the general activity on the network and therefore I don't think that fixed IP on any other unit matters.
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