Recommended network components

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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote: 2021-10-27 05:13
lejonklou wrote: 2021-10-26 23:26 I added a very simple sketch to the website, showing how Källa is best connected to your HiFi and the network.
Fredrik,
does it matter when Källa with its SMPS is on the same power strip with amps which have a LPS?
Thanks

Matt
Yes, it matters: It sounds best when they are together in the same strip.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-10-26 23:50
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-10-26 23:38
lejonklou wrote: 2021-10-26 23:26 I added a very simple sketch to the website, showing how Källa is best connected to your HiFi and the network...
Källa 1st on the power strip, ahead of preamps?
Presumably the two power strips should be plugged into a common (duplex) outlet? I may be wrong but believe that was previous advice: network components on a separate power strip but both into a shared double socket...
You are correct!

I prefer preamps first and Källa second in the power strip. But that made my sketch too complicated... Some have integrated amps and then Källa should be first.

Yes, the power strips should be plugged into outlets that are close to one another.
Image improved. Thanks again tokenbrit!

https://www.lejonklou.com/tips/recommended-setup/
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

What about powering the router?

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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote: 2021-10-28 22:45
What about powering the router?

Matt
I think that most people will have their router somewhere else, so I skipped that part.

It was a very long time ago since I compared powering the router and the switch from the same power strip. I have forgotten if there's an advantage to it. Does anyone want to share their experience with this?
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by tokenbrit »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-09-07 13:31 ...
We have evaluated a couple of WiFi-to-Ethernet devices, which could replace the switch. Källa would then connect to this device with a cable and the device connects to the router through WiFi. This arrangement is likely to perform worse in most networks than the use of a switch...
Did that include trying an Airport Express (2nd Gen) as the WiFi-to-Ethernet device?
I have one that I'm trying to decide whether/how to install in my home network. Currently I have cable-modem-router-switch-hakai (wired)
I was considering dual routers to separate music from other home network traffic. Coverage is sufficient that I don't need to use the AE to extend the WiFi, but I could connect a Källa in the same way as the Hakai, or via WiFi-to-Ethernet...
The reason for asking is that the AE seems more musical than my current router, but the 802.11n & 10/100 LAN are limiting for a whole house network, and I have ltd opportunity to mess with the n/w due to VPN/WFH.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by FairPlayMotty »

tokenbrit wrote: 2021-11-10 14:57
lejonklou wrote: 2021-09-07 13:31 ...
We have evaluated a couple of WiFi-to-Ethernet devices, which could replace the switch. Källa would then connect to this device with a cable and the device connects to the router through WiFi. This arrangement is likely to perform worse in most networks than the use of a switch...
Did that include trying an Airport Express (2nd Gen) as the WiFi-to-Ethernet device?
I have one that I'm trying to decide whether/how to install in my home network. Currently I have cable-modem-router-switch-hakai (wired)
I was considering dual routers to separate music from other home network traffic. Coverage is sufficient that I don't need to use the AE to extend the WiFi, but I could connect a Källa in the same way as the Hakai, or via WiFi-to-Ethernet...
The reason for asking is that the AE seems more musical than my current router, but the 802.11n & 10/100 LAN are limiting for a whole house network, and I have ltd opportunity to mess with the n/w due to VPN/WFH.
On a rather wild audio forum I read of one guy who'd taken your dual router approach a touch further - he had two ISPs, one for his audio and the other for his other internet needs. I tried dual routers and gained no discernible benefit. The biggest gain on the internet side for me was using fixed IP addresses.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by tokenbrit »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2021-11-10 15:04
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-11-10 14:57
lejonklou wrote: 2021-09-07 13:31 ...
We have evaluated a couple of WiFi-to-Ethernet devices, which could replace the switch. Källa would then connect to this device with a cable and the device connects to the router through WiFi. This arrangement is likely to perform worse in most networks than the use of a switch...
Did that include trying an Airport Express (2nd Gen) as the WiFi-to-Ethernet device?
I have one that I'm trying to decide whether/how to install in my home network. Currently I have cable-modem-router-switch-hakai (wired)
I was considering dual routers to separate music from other home network traffic. Coverage is sufficient that I don't need to use the AE to extend the WiFi, but I could connect a Källa in the same way as the Hakai, or via WiFi-to-Ethernet...
The reason for asking is that the AE seems more musical than my current router, but the 802.11n & 10/100 LAN are limiting for a whole house network, and I have ltd opportunity to mess with the n/w due to VPN/WFH.
On a rather wild audio forum I read of one guy who'd taken your dual router approach a touch further - he had two ISPs, one for his audio and the other for his other internet needs. I tried dual routers and gained no discernible benefit. The biggest gain on the internet side for me was using fixed IP addresses.
That did cross my mind for a split second, but then how do you find the most musical ISP? ;)
The only way I could see dual routers benefiting the music is if the more musical router is the primary, to get the shortest/cleanest path to the Internet, but that's based on logic rather than evidence based... AE as primary would limit the home network somewhat by reverting to 10/100 LAN even if the current wireless router as secondary would provide 802.11ac, and the other home network traffic' including VPN/WFH, would still go through the AE.
I guess it would only be if there were something in the AE over my current router, or between control point, AE, and streamer that benefited the music - it's not like the AE is needed to provide Airplay since a Källa would take care of that, and I'm not about to reconfigure the network to Airplay enable my Hakai... (IP addresses already fixed)
I realise I'm probably overthinking it (family motto: never knowingly underanalysed) but I was asking about AE as a WiFi-to-Ethernet device as much for possible musicality through network simplification - removing longer cables - as through traffic separation with dual routers (or a 2nd ISP :)
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by FairPlayMotty »

tokenbrit wrote: 2021-11-10 18:08
FairPlayMotty wrote: 2021-11-10 15:04
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-11-10 14:57

Did that include trying an Airport Express (2nd Gen) as the WiFi-to-Ethernet device?
I have one that I'm trying to decide whether/how to install in my home network. Currently I have cable-modem-router-switch-hakai (wired)
I was considering dual routers to separate music from other home network traffic. Coverage is sufficient that I don't need to use the AE to extend the WiFi, but I could connect a Källa in the same way as the Hakai, or via WiFi-to-Ethernet...
The reason for asking is that the AE seems more musical than my current router, but the 802.11n & 10/100 LAN are limiting for a whole house network, and I have ltd opportunity to mess with the n/w due to VPN/WFH.
On a rather wild audio forum I read of one guy who'd taken your dual router approach a touch further - he had two ISPs, one for his audio and the other for his other internet needs. I tried dual routers and gained no discernible benefit. The biggest gain on the internet side for me was using fixed IP addresses.
That did cross my mind for a split second, but then how do you find the most musical ISP? ;)
The only way I could see dual routers benefiting the music is if the more musical router is the primary, to get the shortest/cleanest path to the Internet, but that's based on logic rather than evidence based... AE as primary would limit the home network somewhat by reverting to 10/100 LAN even if the current wireless router as secondary would provide 802.11ac, and the other home network traffic' including VPN/WFH, would still go through the AE.
I guess it would only be if there were something in the AE over my current router, or between control point, AE, and streamer that benefited the music - it's not like the AE is needed to provide Airplay since a Källa would take care of that, and I'm not about to reconfigure the network to Airplay enable my Hakai... (IP addresses already fixed)
I realise I'm probably overthinking it (family motto: never knowingly underanalysed) but I was asking about AE as a WiFi-to-Ethernet device as much for possible musicality through network simplification - removing longer cables - as through traffic separation with dual routers (or a 2nd ISP :)
Finding the most musical ISP would be tricky and extremely expensive. Funding two ISPs is an expense too far for me. I never use their routers, I use higher spec ones - I've not comparison tested all the ones I own. Something for the future ;)
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

I have updated the recommended setup sketch with two details:

First, the order in the power strip in case you have a separate preamp. In my opinion preamp first is more musical, but I know that some think the source should be first. Hence the wording "We suggest".

Second, I added the instruction that nothing more than Källa and the WiFi router should be connected to the switch. I have periodically had an Apple TV connected with cable to Källa's switch. This makes Källa perform significantly worse. Apple TV connected by WiFi has no negative effect, so that's how it should be done.

If one is using a NAS, I suspect it's preferable if it's connected to the WiFi router (if possible) instead of Källa's switch. But I have not confirmed this, as my only regular NAS, a QNAP, has locked me out and resetting it doesn't work.

I should mention that these recommendations are likely not specific to Källa. Previous experiences have shown that other streamers also benefit from "being alone" on the switch when listening to streaming services.

https://www.lejonklou.com/tips/recommended-setup/
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-09-07 13:31 * Källa specific parameter that can be optimized: Choice of control point.
I recommend you use an iPhone 11 as control point. The differences between control points are small and can vary between different networks, but the iPhone 11 has consistently performed the best. If you are using Spotify, you don't need to control it with the iPhone 11,
Fredrik;
thanks for updating recommended network components.
Maybe it makes sense to update the iPhone 11 recommendation as well and provide only a link to the control points thread.

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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

Thanks Matt!
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by Spannko »

Fredrik,

Your diagram shows the GS108 being the only item plugged into a power strip, with the power strip being plugged into the wall receptacle next to the power strip for the HiFi system.

Is the GS108’s power strip really necessary, or can the 108 be plugged directly into the wall receptacle next to the HiFi systems power strip?

Also, have you tried moving the GS108’s power connection even further away from the HiFi? Into another socket in the room, or on a separate circuit?
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by Pedro »

I use 2 adjacent wall sockets that lead to the same separate fuse for the music system in the house connection box.
One has a 6-way power strip with a 2m supply cable for 6 Linn devices, which in turn have approx. 2m long mains cables.
The other power strip is for the switching power supply for the QNAP with 2m supply cable and the simple plug-in power supply for the switch.

Then I increased the "distance" to the Linn devices by extending the plug-in power supply in the 2nd bar with a 2.5m supply cable, so that also the "distance" between the two power supplies in this bar was greater.
This has led to a small improvement overall.
The photo shows the small platform (birch plywood) on which the QNAP power supply is also placed. To prevent the light plug-in power supply from slipping away, I placed it upside down. It is held in position better this way.
The two power supply units of the second bar are now at least 8 m "away" from the Linn devices.

20211121_125024.jpg
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote: 2021-11-21 06:06 Fredrik,

Your diagram shows the GS108 being the only item plugged into a power strip, with the power strip being plugged into the wall receptacle next to the power strip for the HiFi system.

Is the GS108’s power strip really necessary, or can the 108 be plugged directly into the wall receptacle next to the HiFi systems power strip?

Also, have you tried moving the GS108’s power connection even further away from the HiFi? Into another socket in the room, or on a separate circuit?
Is the power strip to the switch necessary? I am not sure, because I have also powered various NASes from that strip. But I can try powering the switch directly from the wall now, as none of my NASes are in use.

Should the mains connection point of the switch be moved further away from the system? When I tried this in the past, the answer was no, it should be close to the system but on a separate strip. When I moved it to a wall outlet far away, the music got worse. Might have to do that test again to be certain.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-11-21 14:30 Should the mains connection point of the switch be moved further away from the system? When I tried this in the past, the answer was no, it should be close to the system but on a separate strip. When I moved it to a wall outlet far away, the music got worse. Might have to do that test again to be certain.
I assume this is also true for a wifi-to-ethernet adaptor which would have to be powered (in my case) from a complete different phase of my mains distribution than the phase which is powering my system.
Last edited by matthias on 2021-11-21 16:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote: 2021-11-21 14:57 I assume this is also true for a wifi-to-ethernet adaptor which would have to be powered (in my case) from a complete different phase of my mains distribution than the phase which is powering my system.
I have no idea whether this powering detail is specific to the GS-108T switch. I don't understand the mechanisms behind the slight differences they produce, so the only tool I have is trial and error. And when practicing optimization by trial and error, it's important to never assume anything.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by Spannko »

Fredrik,

Do you still recommend the tp-link travel router/WAP? If so, have you tried two used close to one another, one used as a WAP and one used as a client (I think that’s what it’s called)?
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Re: Recommended network components

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Spannko wrote: 2021-11-21 17:14 Do you still recommend the tp-link travel router/WAP? If so, have you tried two used close to one another, one used as a WAP and one used as a client (I think that’s what it’s called)?
As a GS-108T switch seems to perform best in 9 networks out of 10, I recommend a GS-108T and ethernet cables in and out.

When cables can't be used there are a range of options and we've only tested a small amount of devices. The TP-LINK travel router was pretty good when used as a client (it converts WiFi to an ethernet cabled connection, which Källa requires). It's unlikely that a GS-108T switch should be inserted between the TP-LINK and Källa, at least it was better without the switch when we tried it. But these kind of details need be determined by trial and error in each network.

We never tried two TP-LINKs and I don't see the point in it, unless the network lacks WiFi. Creating a bridge by one device doing ethernet-to-WiFi and another doing WiFi-to-Ethernet is unlikely to be better that just connecting with cable directly. But as I mentioned before, there are exceptions, odd cases when a bridge seems to improve things.

I feel that I must point out that there is no need to fiddle and experiment with the network when you add a Källa to your system. Get a GS-108T switch, two Blue Jeans ethernet cables, connect and enjoy!
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-11-21 20:20 Get a GS-108T switch, two Blue Jeans ethernet cables, connect and enjoy!
Of course,
we would not ask if a network can be built with these in our environment.......
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Re: Recommended network components

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matthias wrote: 2021-11-21 20:39
lejonklou wrote: 2021-11-21 20:20 Get a GS-108T switch, two Blue Jeans ethernet cables, connect and enjoy!
Of course,
we would not ask if a network can be built with these in our environment.......
Your case is special, matthias, as you only have WiFi. I believe the only path then is trial and error.

I only added that last paragraph as I've received a number of questions from people who are wondering about how to optimally connect Källa to their network. It seems they all already have a streamer connected by cable and most of them have a switch as well. And then they can simply disconnect their old streamer and connect a Källa instead.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by Discodave »

I use 2 link plugs to fire the wifi through the mains electrical. One plug from router in hall, another plug in room with streamer, then into GT108 then into Majik DS. This is a necessity given i can't run cable every which way around the house. I never had a chance to A/B but ive never been unhappy with it.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-11-21 20:20
Spannko wrote: 2021-11-21 17:14 Do you still recommend the tp-link travel router/WAP? If so, have you tried two used close to one another, one used as a WAP and one used as a client (I think that’s what it’s called)?
As a GS-108T switch seems to perform best in 9 networks out of 10, I recommend a GS-108T and ethernet cables in and out.

When cables can't be used there are a range of options and we've only tested a small amount of devices. The TP-LINK travel router was pretty good when used as a client (it converts WiFi to an ethernet cabled connection, which Källa requires). It's unlikely that a GS-108T switch should be inserted between the TP-LINK and Källa, at least it was better without the switch when we tried it. But these kind of details need be determined by trial and error in each network.

We never tried two TP-LINKs and I don't see the point in it, unless the network lacks WiFi. Creating a bridge by one device doing ethernet-to-WiFi and another doing WiFi-to-Ethernet is unlikely to be better that just connecting with cable directly. But as I mentioned before, there are exceptions, odd cases when a bridge seems to improve things.

I feel that I must point out that there is no need to fiddle and experiment with the network when you add a Källa to your system. Get a GS-108T switch, two Blue Jeans ethernet cables, connect and enjoy!
The reason I asked is because the WiFi signal in my man cave is poor, but I do have a wired Ethernet socket in the room. Running bjc from the router to man cave is difficult, having to run about 40m (through a roof space, then outside, then back into another roof space, then into the room). The current Ethernet cable is 10m of no-name cat5e to GS108 with every port in use, then 30m of no-name cat5e to my den, and another 108. (all built-in and not upgradable). I would need a WAP in the room to control/feed Källa reliably and was hoping the current cat5e Ethernet could be used. However, thinking about it, I could possibly need the WAP and a bjc direct from the router. Fortunately, my man that does loves crawling through tight spaces …….. not!
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by matthias »

Discodave wrote: 2021-11-21 21:32 I use 2 link plugs to fire the wifi through the mains electrical. One plug from router in hall, another plug in room with streamer, then into GT108 then into Majik DS. This is a necessity given i can't run cable every which way around the house. I never had a chance to A/B but ive never been unhappy with it.
AFAIK, Kevin (macrotech2) is running a similar configuration but he uses an EtherRegen switch.
IMO, a good WiFi solution should not be inferior to using ethernet via mains.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by lejonklou »

Inspired by Defender's test of the mains adapter polarity of the GS-108T switch (viewtopic.php?p=61098#p61098) and the question whether the second power strip for the switch in my recommended setup sketch (https://www.lejonklou.com/tips/recommended-setup/) is necessary, I decided to make some quick experiments.

Indeed I had the mains polarity of my adapter just like Defender described it (viewtopic.php?p=61116#p61116). This only applies to the European version, which can be turned 180 degrees in the socket. Its model number is Netgear AD810000 and I have found it quite hard to beat with any of the standard available 12 Volt alternatives out there, having tried a number of them.

I tried plugging it directly into the wall socket next to the two power strips that feed my HiFi system. It was clearly worse. Better to have it in the first socket of my "digital power strip", that used to also feed two NASes but currently only powers the switch. So exactly as in my sketch was the most musical option.

My "digital power strip" is an old simple model from Clas Ohlson with 4 outlets and only 0.6 m of cord to the wall plug. I have yet to try a strip with a longer cord and maybe also reconfirm my old finding that the strip should be plugged into the wall outlet next to the "HiFi strips" and not to another wall outlet further away.
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Re: Recommended network components

Post by tokenbrit »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-11-22 20:58 I tried plugging [the 108T] directly into the wall socket next to the two power strips that feed my HiFi system. It was clearly worse. Better to have it in the first socket of my "digital power strip", that used to also feed two NASes but currently only powers the switch. So exactly as in my sketch was the most musical option.
When you say "the wall socket next to [your HiFi power strip]", do you mean another duplex outlet/socket, or do you mean where the "digital power strip" is plugged in? Putting it another way: if you're only powering the switch, do you still need the digital power strip, or can the switch be plugged into the double socket with the HiFi power strip? I'd be surprised if it were worse plugged in place of the digital power strip, but stranger things have happened...
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