lejonklou wrote: ↑2021-05-19 23:00 It seems that when we evaluated combinations by just listening for the most musical result, we ended up with values that make the modem circuits work in a relaxed and fluid way.

It seems you're on to something really special here and maybe are discovering "des Pudels kern" in streaming music. Something which also would explaing the Spotify enigma. Just out of curiosity, are you throughout the evaluation using a reference setup, like a Klimax DSM, by now and then checking out that you actually have not got somewhat lost in following the track of progress in Källa?

Spannko wrote: ↑2021-05-20 07:38 What are “modem circuits of the control points”?

What I'm referring to is the WiFi chipset in for instance an iPad.

GREAT!
YES!

lejonklou wrote: ↑2021-05-20 13:04 What I'm referring to is the WiFi chipset in for instance an iPad.

To get more exact comparisons between control points (if they do exist in the future after your latest discovery) I would suggest to run all CP via WiFi.

Matt

PetterS wrote: ↑2021-05-20 12:00It seems you're on to something really special here and maybe are discovering "des Pudels kern" in streaming music. Something which also would explaing the Spotify enigma.

Our experience is that "des Pudels kern" in a digital music reproduction system is distributed. Many small cores, scattered across the system where the digital signal moves.

PetterS wrote: ↑2021-05-20 12:00Just out of curiosity, are you throughout the evaluation using a reference setup, like a Klimax DSM, by now and then checking out that you actually have not got somewhat lost in following the track of progress in Källa?

No, I never use any external references when developing a product. It's not helpful.

Last time we made a comparison with a KDSM Katalyst was several years ago.

matthias wrote: ↑2021-05-20 13:18

lejonklou wrote: ↑2021-05-20 13:04 What I'm referring to is the WiFi chipset in for instance an iPad.

To get more exact comparisons between control points (if they do exist in the future after your latest discovery) I would suggest to run all CP via WiFi.

Matt

I'm not sure what you mean by this. We are running all control points via WiFi.

Then we have also tested connection with cable, to see if and in what way it differs from WiFi.

lejonklou wrote: ↑2021-05-20 13:55 I'm not sure what you mean by this. We are running all control points via WiFi.
Then we have also tested connection with cable, to see if and in what way it differs from WiFi.

I think it is only related to MacBook category. When one device with cable has the same performance as another one with WiFi then I would go for that with WiFi. OTOH, to go for a device with cable this one must be better than all others with Wifi.

Matt

lejonklou wrote: ↑2021-05-20 13:04

Spannko wrote: ↑2021-05-20 07:38 What are “modem circuits of the control points”?

What I'm referring to is the WiFi chipset in for instance an iPad.

Ah, I’m with you now 👍

matthias wrote: ↑2021-05-20 14:41

lejonklou wrote: ↑2021-05-20 13:55 I'm not sure what you mean by this. We are running all control points via WiFi.
Then we have also tested connection with cable, to see if and in what way it differs from WiFi.

I think it is only related to MacBook category. When one device with cable has the same performance as another one with WiFi then I would go for that with WiFi. OTOH, to go for a device with cable this one must be better than all others with Wifi.

OK, now I understand.

We have compared the cable versus WiFi connection of the MacBook we're using. It used to be a clear difference, now it's very small. But the cable connection is still a tiny bit more precise.

Do you have some kind of ”teamwork” with Spotify when you develop your software and protocol ? Spotify develops their Spotify connect with the help of Ubiquiti.

Kalle05 wrote: ↑2021-05-27 18:23 Do you have some kind of ”teamwork” with Spotify when you develop your software and protocol ? Spotify develops their Spotify connect with the help of Ubiquiti.

Källa and Protokoll don't care which streaming service you are using, they are all treated in the same way. So when listening to Källa, the quality differences between e.g. Tidal, Quboz, Spotify, Google Music, Amazon and Apple Music are related to the quality of their respective data streams. We can't improve any of them further without improving them all.

Regarding any possible communication between us and Spotify, I'm not allowed to talk about it.

lejonklou wrote: ↑2021-05-27 20:07 Regarding any possible communication between us and Spotify, I'm not allowed to talk about it.

Are you allowed to talk about whether Spotify Connect would be a valid alternative (or not) to the protocol Källa uses?
Thanks

Matt

matthias wrote: ↑2021-05-30 11:24 Are you allowed to talk about whether Spotify Connect would be a valid alternative (or not) to the protocol Källa uses?

I don't know how good Spotify Connect can be. It might be really good or might be limited by some technical aspects that are out of our control.

I don't think it's possible to find this out without building it, letting Spotify certify it (which is a necessity) and then see how far it can be trimmed for optimal performance. It's an undertaking without a guarantee that it will be better than Protokoll.

lejonklou wrote: ↑2021-05-31 00:17 It's an undertaking without a guarantee that it will be better than Protokoll.

Agree,
however, it might be the same with a new circuit for a preamp for example. Without trying you will never know if it is better or worse.

Matt

matthias wrote: ↑2021-05-31 09:46 Agree,
however, it might be the same with a new circuit for a preamp for example. Without trying you will never know if it is better or worse.

True, you never know for sure until you test things in practice. I test a lot of things until I usually discard them because they don't show enough promise.

Protokoll is not the only protocol we've built. There's been several NAS protocols, Bluetooth and Chromecast. Protokoll is by far the most musical and that's why we chose it.

Fredrik,

some older Macs do not support the protocol Källa uses.
One solution might be Airfoil which seems to use the same protocol:

https://rogueamoeba.com/airfoil/mac/

Did your team try or can your team try whether this is a musical option for older Macs to play with Källa or do exist superior alternatives to Airfoil?

Thank you

Matt

Apologies Matt, I forgot to answer this.

We have not tested Airfoil and the only way to find out whether it can perform really well is to try it in practice. This is currently not on our roadmap, as there are many small details of Protokoll that still hold the potential of being improved. So we're continuing to work with those.

All improvements that are made will be released as a new firmware. And a new firmware for Källa means it either adds functionality, sounds better, or both. None of the famous "which firmware sounds best?"-discussions will be necessary.

Upgrading Källa to a new firmware is very simple to do through its web interface. Currently we are at version 1.0.14 and it seems 100% bug free.

lejonklou wrote: ↑2021-06-15 00:00 All improvements that are made will be released as a new firmware. And a new firmware for Källa means it either adds functionality, sounds better, or both. None of the famous "which firmware sounds best?"-discussions will be necessary.
Upgrading Källa to a new firmware is very simple to do through its web interface. Currently we are at version 1.0.14 and it seems 100% bug free.

Great :-)

Matt

That's very cool to hear, but no less than what I expected.

lejonklou wrote: ↑2021-06-15 00:00 All improvements that are made will be released as a new firmware.

Fredrik,
so IIUC even a different protocol could be implemented via a new firmware release?
Thanks

Matt

matthias wrote: ↑2021-06-16 06:41

lejonklou wrote: ↑2021-06-15 00:00 All improvements that are made will be released as a new firmware.

Fredrik,
so IIUC even a different protocol could be implemented via a new firmware release?
Thanks

Matt

Yes!

lejonklou wrote: ↑2021-06-16 11:03

matthias wrote: ↑2021-06-16 06:41 Fredrik,
so IIUC even a different protocol could be implemented via a new firmware release?

Yes!

I would say this makes Källa future-proof even when the giant in Cupertino changes some protocols.

Matt

matthias wrote: ↑2021-06-16 11:32

lejonklou wrote: ↑2021-06-16 11:03

matthias wrote: ↑2021-06-16 06:41 Fredrik,
so IIUC even a different protocol could be implemented via a new firmware release?

Yes!

I would say this makes Källa future-proof even when the giant in Cupertino changes some protocols.

Matt

That seems quite likely. However it also seems unlikely that the 800lb Gorilla would make some big change you fear as it would obsolete all the previous equipment it ran on and likely result in multiple class-action lawsuits.

Might be relevant when streaming Spotify with iPhone to Källa:

https://www.macrumors.com/2021/09/27/sp ... -fix-soon/

Matt

matthias wrote: ↑2021-09-27 21:16 Might be relevant when streaming Spotify with iPhone to Källa:

https://www.macrumors.com/2021/09/27/sp ... -fix-soon/

I haven't noticed any battery drain.

The list of recommended control points has been updated. We couldn't tell the iPhone 12 Pro Max and 13 Pro Max apart. iPhone 11 is for some reason still a notch above all the others.