Recommended control points

[matthias]

Yes! We've tested the latest top model of MacBook (crazy fast and crazy expensive) and it sounds fantastic.
It definitely belongs in the top range of control points, but we have yet to compare it with the iPad mini 6.

Thank you Fredrik.

@David and Thomas:
It is just in case you need anyway a new Macbook for non audio purposes and do not want to buy an IPad mini as an extra.

[ThomasOK]

Yes! We've tested the latest top model of MacBook (crazy fast and crazy expensive) and it sounds fantastic.
It definitely belongs in the top range of control points, but we have yet to compare it with the iPad mini 6.

Thank you Fredrik.

@David and Thomas:
It is just in case you need anyway a new Macbook for non audio purposes and do not want to buy an IPad mini as an extra.

True, this could certainly be a good excuse (sorry, ahem, reason) to buy a new top of the line MacBook if you wanted to. ;-)

[Spannko]

I’ve just discovered that a Bluetooth keyboard with audio controls can be used to pause, play next or previous tracks, even when the iPad has gone into sleep mode.

[laurents]

Hello.
I find it interesting that the performance varies according to the devices used in "Control Points" (I put the term in commas, it does not seem to me to be the most accurate).
It is certainly necessary to go through a step which is to understand why there are differences, even if they are small.
But we can make the hypothesis that the best control point does not yet exist, that it remains to be built once this understanding is acquired. No ?

[lejonklou]

Do you have a suggestion for a better term than Control Point?

I don't know how familiar you are with digital music streaming, but there are many small differences that are extremely difficult to examine and understand completely. The difference between Control Points is one of them. The difference between switches or Ethernet cables is another. A deeper understanding is desirable and we usually build it step by step, over time. If you have any specific recommendations to share regarding this, I'd be more than happy to hear about them, either here or by email.

[laurents]

Fredrik, I am familiar with the use of streaming. But I am not at all a good connoisseur of the technique.
When I use Roon for example, I use my iPad as a remote control, the Roon software being installed on a server PC.
In the case of Källa, and if I'm not mistaken, the iPad does more than that. It sends the stream. Wouldn't one of these terms be more appropriate ? (may be not)
- Transmitter
- Sender
- Re-sender
- Flow sender (or flow re-sender)

[lejonklou]

Thanks for the suggestions!

There are two ways to look at what the Apple device is when used with Källa. One is the technical sense, in which you could call it a sender. Another is how it is being used, in which you can call it a control point.

I am much in favor of using words that describe the user experience rather than how the technology works. Therefore I think that Control Point is a better label.

[laurents]

I am much in favor of using words that describe the user experience rather than how the technology works.

Ok Fredrik, i understand.
What about the technical aspect ? Do you think there are options to build or configure a super Control Point, whose performance (in sending the flow) would be superior to devices such as ipad or iphone ?
Do you know if the alimentation of the device can be a important parameter ?
Is there a rull for the transmission, with cable or without ?

[lejonklou]

What about the technical aspect ? Do you think there are options to build or configure a super Control Point, whose performance (in sending the flow) would be superior to devices such as ipad or iphone ?

If we would release a product that sends data to Källa (which converts it to analogue sound), the main question is what the source of the data is.

We would never make a product that can source data from music streaming services like Spotify, Qobuz, Tidal, YouTube Music, Deezer, Apple Music, Primephonic, Amazon Music, etc, and video streaming services like Netflix, HBO, Disney+, Amazon Prime Video, YouTube TV, Peacock, etc, etc. That's just not possible. An iPhone, iPad, Mac or Apple TV does all of that. We don't.

A source of data that is possible to use is music and films stored on a local hard disk or solid state drive. We have already built several such devices, they can be described as a NAS that sends its data to Källa. So far these devices have not been able to better the performance obtained when using an Apple device as Control Point/sender. Källa as it is sold today is the most musical machine we've built so far. We don't have any higher performing prototypes, neither of Källa nor of Control Points.

Do you know if the alimentation of the device can be a important parameter ?
Is there a rull for the transmission, with cable or without ?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand these questions.

[ThomasOK]

Hi laurents, some interesting thoughts. I thought I should mention that you have addressed Fredrik twice and misspelled his name wrong both times, and both in different ways. I know it is a little thing but something I try to get right. I may be over sensitive to this seeing how many creative ways people have found to mispronounce my last name of O'Keefe. But I do like getting names correct.

On your questions it is likely possible to make a better control point but I don't think anybody actually knows how to do it. We don't know why certain ones are better, just that they are. Besides not knowing how to make one better the big problem is that the only company that can make a control point to work with Källa is Apple as the designs are proprietary, especially as the best sounding units have been ones using Apple processor chips. Even if there were some way to overcome that hurdle (and there really isn't) there would also be the amount of time to design your own operating system and to get people like Spotify, Qobuz, Tidal, Radio Paradise, etc. to come out with programs to support your device and OS. You can see why Fredrik says it will never happen.

It seems to me that there is really no reason to do so since the current solution sounds fantastic and has tremendous app support for about any music source available. The ease of use of the Källa is unequalled by any streamer in my experience and the musical quality is likewise. If Apple does make an even more musical device for control point use in the future I'm sure we'll find out and then it is up to us if we want to spend the money. For now I'm supremely happy with the Källa and iPad Mini 6.

[laurents]

Hi laurents, some interesting thoughts. I thought I should mention that you have addressed Fredrik twice and misspelled his name wrong both times (...)

Hello Thomas. You are right to point this out. Thanks for that. And I apologise to you Fredrik for misspelling your first name. I will try to be more careful.

Do you know if the alimentation of the device can be a important parameter ?
Is there a rull for the transmission, with cable or without ?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand these questions.

Ok Fredrik. Sorry again. I'll try to be more clear ;-)
Some audiophiles have spent time (and money) optimising their mac mini, used as a server or a player. In particular, they have made it possible to connect it to linear power supplies. And removed the fan.
I see that the 2015 mac mini using wifi is on the control points list on page 1. Could the performance of this device be optimised if it was connected to the network with a cable and not wifi?
Do you think it could be improved with the above mentioned modifications? (LPS and/or fan removal)

I'm just trying to see if there is a way to go further with this fancy device ;-)

[matthias]

Some audiophiles have spent time (and money) optimising their mac mini, used as a server or a player. In particular, they have made it possible to connect it to linear power supplies. And removed the fan.
I see that the 2015 mac mini using wifi is on the control points list on page 1. Could the performance of this device be optimised if it was connected to the network with a cable and not wifi?
Do you think it could be improved with the above mentioned modifications? (LPS and/or fan removal)
I'm just trying to see if there is a way to go further with this fancy device ;-)

Certainly you can modify a 2015 Mac Mini and hope that it will outperform the latest iPad mini as Control Point.
I do not believe that it is able to do the trick, I would go for the latest iPad mini or try one of the latest Macbooks or Mac Minis with the M chip.

[lejonklou]

I see that the 2015 mac mini using wifi is on the control points list on page 1. Could the performance of this device be optimised if it was connected to the network with a cable and not wifi?

The difference is really small between WiFi and cable connection on the units we've tried. If you intend to use a 2015 Mac Mini with Källa it's easy to compare the two ways of connecting it.

Do you think it could be improved with the above mentioned modifications? (LPS and/or fan removal)

Linear power supplies are popular in audiophile circles but usually way overrated. There's nothing inherently better with them, they're just simpler to build and fiddle with.

Do you have any first hand experience that the modified Mac Mini is actually more tuneful than an unmodified one? If no, I wouldn't spend any energy on thinking how it would perform as a control point for Källa. If yes, I think that the differences will be much smaller, and perhaps not for the better, when used with Källa. This is because the musical impact by the control points are small and not necessarily related to how the same device performs when used as a streamer or NAS.

[laurents]

Hello Fredrik.
Yes, the modification of a mac mini as mentioned above is a great improvement. It's not night and day, but it's starting to look like it ;-)
But indeed, I believe you, it is not certain that it is the same in an airplay configuration, with Källa. I think the only way to know the answer would be to test !

[ekay2012]

Has anyone compared "streaming" Spotify versus downloading the track within the Spotify app then playing? I was comparing this today and seem to have a preference for "downloading" the track first. I am using an Intel based MacBook Pro as my control point and restarting the Spotify desktop app between comparisons, both streaming and download quality set to "very high." I am curious how others play music from Spotify and if anyone else has noticed a similar improvement, thanks!

[lejonklou]

List on page 1 updated

[lejonklou]

Has anyone compared "streaming" Spotify versus downloading the track within the Spotify app then playing? I was comparing this today and seem to have a preference for "downloading" the track first. I am using an Intel based MacBook Pro as my control point and restarting the Spotify desktop app between comparisons, both streaming and download quality set to "very high." I am curious how others play music from Spotify and if anyone else has noticed a similar improvement, thanks!

We tried this tonight when evaluating a Mac Book Pro 16” M1 Max 32GB WiFi as a control point (really good, but not quite as good as iPad mini 6).

We found that downloading from the Spotify app and then playing it was worse than streaming it directly from Spotify. Tried it several times and it was always a little better after erasing the downloads, which forced the app to streaming it directly.

[matthias]

List on page 1 updated

Thank you, please the date as well :-)

[matthias]

We tried this tonight when evaluating a Mac Book Pro 16” M1 Max 32GB WiFi as a control point (really good, but not quite as good as iPad mini 6).

Interesting,
maybe the Spotify iOS app is better than the MacOS app?

[lejonklou]

List on page 1 updated

Thank you, please the date as well :-)

Date now updated as well. :)

[ekay2012]

Interesting, thank you! Is an iPad mini 6 worth the investment if I am enjoying my system with a Intel based MacBook Pro?

[Defender]

its hard to say what is worth to you but lets say it this way:
some people are happy to spend the same amount of money (IPad mini) for interconnects and power cables and are happy with the improvement

… and you can use an IPad mini for more than just a controll point

[lejonklou]

Interesting, thank you! Is an iPad mini 6 worth the investment if I am enjoying my system with a Intel based MacBook Pro?

Like Defender wrote, “worth it” is difficult to say without making a direct comparison.

Personally I feel ‘Yes, it is’. I already have the best digital player I have ever listened to and both the Blue Jeans cables and the iPad mini 6 were worth their cost and effort as they bring out just a little more of those goosebumps that I chase.

[ekay2012]

FYI the iPad mini 6 64gb space gray is on sale for $400 USD (lowest price I've seen) on Amazon (here in the US) for anyone that may be interested. I might have to grab myself one 😄.

[lejonklou]

List on page 1 updated.

We evaluated MacBook Pro 16” M1 Max 32GB unified, connected with cable to the switch before Källa, and compared it against iPhone 11 and iPad mini 6.

One could probably say that this MacBook connected with cable is about as good as iPhone 11, but in the end we still preferred iPhone 11. The MacBook is slightly cleaner and smoother, while iPhone 11 is a little more lively and energetic. iPad mini 6 combines the best of both.